JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[deducer]

It is an interesting idea, but I believe most, if not all folks, consider recovery of metal from ore, in addition to accumulating the ore, as both resting under the umbrella of of 'mining'. Clearly. Besides, if you separate refining from mining, then why all the pages of hubbub here on mercury? It still doesn't answer the question of why, if the Jesuits had stockpiled precious metals using this business model, why didn't they later recover it?

I would ask what exactly qualifies the process of refining as being related to mining?

The example of the flask of mercury that Fr. Och was carrying around was to demonstrate that he was in direct violation of the precepts, and knew it.

Why didn't they later recover it? Who's to said that they didn't try? After all, we do have records of priests coming over who were in possession of information they found in church archives or elsewhere.

 

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[deducer]

ya know i have very purposely refrained from posting on this thread , but i have a stupid question. does anyone know of a possible link between viceroy Mendoza and any higher ups in the Jesuit order ? this is not really relevant to what the crown did or did not do , but more of a curiosity for me . circumstances may have came about that Mendoza knew somethings about some of these" areas of interest" , that the king was not . well i guess Mendoza knew , along with some French " pirates" , but one of the two may have indeed needed a more secretive type of group to assist . and of course this thinking is speculative , but the simplest answer sometimes pans out. i mean i have thought about the French connection before , and i am no expert on your Jesuits , but does anyone else think they could have acquired treasures based upon what had already been going on over here priory to any Spanish occupation . I'm sure these guys probably liked fish that jumped into the boat , if ya know what i mean. thanks in advance .///bob

Not a stupid question.

IMHO, it is relevant to the discussion at hand.

We do know that De Anza was complicit, on a lower level, so it's not altogether unreasonable to assume that complicity took place higher up on the ladder.

 

[Springfield]

The first question is: where did 'we' get our info? If the SJ wanted agents to retrieve their caches so that they could seize the goods later via legal means, don't you think they would have provided their agents with the info they needed for recovery?



That's assuming they had the information in the first place.

One of the scenarios I have been entertaining is that the Jesuits of the New World did not expect that their expulsion would be so violent and injurious. They most certainly knew it was coming, but IMHO did not expect the harsh and extreme treatment that was to come, including their banishment to many distant parts.

They may have thought they were to simply be deported back to Europe.

In this way, I am sure that much of the information regarding the wealth did not make it back.

This is plausible, I guess, but if they had the time to so thoroughly conceal the good mines and the caches, the 'smartest guys in the room' ought to have figured out a way to preserve that knowledge. IF, of course, the mines and caches existed or were significant enough to want back.



The second question: what, besides 60 years of fruitless speculation, clearly ties the stone maps to the Jesuits?



There are three 100+ pages threads on this forum directly addressing the stones, that answer this question. If, despite that, you are still asking this question, I doubt I would be able to answer to your satisfaction.

Obviously you can't.



Here's an unsolicited third question: if the Jesuits were (are) in possession of knowledge of large caches of precious metals in North America, why assume the Order or the Church of Rome owns the caches?



Because the Jesuits answer to the church. They are an order of the catholic church.

You're kidding. Right?

 

[kanabite]

thanks Springfield , like i said it was a stupid question . well maybe not, the info Mendoza acquired should have fueled many expeditions , and if anything most likely would have been guarded very close to ones vest . now just how the french knew to seize the ship that carried the kings copy ,is the stuff of mystery novels i guess . there has got to be more to this , either that or those guys were blind lol.

 

[Springfield]

I would ask what exactly qualifies the process of refining as being related to mining?

The example of the flask of mercury that Fr. Och was carrying around was to demonstrate that he was in direct violation of the precepts, and knew it.

I'm not following your reasoning here. Refining would be the recovery of (in this case) metals from ore. Without the metal, the ore is just heavy rock. De Re Metallica covers many aspects of the mining and refining technology available during the period in question. Obviously, one example of refining would be using mercury to recover gold from sands or concentrates. As you say, even the possession of mercury was a violation. If so, wouldn't other forms of refining be violations too?

 

[Springfield]

thanks Springfield , like i said it was a stupid question . well maybe not, the info Mendoza acquired should have fueled many expeditions , and if anything most likely would have been guarded very close to ones vest . now just how the french knew to seize the ship that carried the kings copy ,is the stuff of mystery novels i guess . there has got to be more to this , either that or those guys were blind lol.

Mexican/North American activities following Cortes and through the 16th century is very interesting. There are a lot of holes in the documentation beyond the Northern Frontier.

 

[releventchair]

The first question is: where did 'we' get our info? If the SJ wanted agents to retrieve their caches so that they could seize the goods later via legal means, don't you think they would have provided their agents with the info they needed for recovery?

The second question: what, besides 60 years of fruitless speculation, clearly ties the stone maps to the Jesuits?

Here's an unsolicited third question: if the Jesuits were (are) in possession of knowledge of large caches of precious metals in North America, why assume the Order or the Church of Rome owns the caches?

Regarding retrievals. With turmoil between king and church/ pope,on and off allies over long history,a change in lobbied policy or king or even pope perhaps would allow a return. Almost the inevitable change in policy and a change in king and pope is guaranteed eventually.The Apache closing access and any small parties at risk would be encumbered with much of a load when a recovery were to be attempted shortly after expulsion. Stuff could be hid with the warning being advanced if required. Stuff was during conflict with natives,why not when conflict was with the world?
Pope Benedict the XIV was not accusing the Jesuits but looking into allegations when he died at an inopportune time for the Jesuits leaving cardinal Saldanha to fumble the ball. With persecution of all Jesuits including father Malagrida being burned and France following suit in the pursecution, going underground and not possessing or pursuing what may have been cached related to mining is a given.With former enemies Russia and Prussia eventually becoming the Jesuits only allies bringing wealth to their countries not the best idea and by the time persecution let up the American revolution was stirring and war between forces over this country and other countries interests, made for poor prospects to try to sail in and recover.South American route no longer a welcoming route either. Where arrives a date after, between wars and colonies from multiple nations lies the window to make a recovery without getting caught on land or sea? Why anything may have been left troubles me not as there was a period of time to not labor under a burden and especially not to get caught with a lot of valuable stuff when all allies you had have turned against you and you are on the run and can only rest among former enemies.We are being cornered,hide any evidence that can add to our persecution! For today's Jesuits to unveil a great wealth would only confirm the allegations and suspicions of the past. What benefit could arise from that?

 

[deducer]

You're kidding. Right?

I'm sorry, what exactly would I be kidding about?

 

[deducer]

I'm not following your reasoning here. Refining would be the recovery of (in this case) metals from ore. Without the metal, the ore is just heavy rock. De Re Metallica covers many aspects of the mining and refining technology available during the period in question. Obviously, one example of refining would be using mercury to recover gold from sands or concentrates. As you say, even the possession of mercury was a violation. If so, wouldn't other forms of refining be violations too?

This is not necessarily a process of reason, only that it can be construed as a loophole to be taken advantage of.

Mining is extraction, refining is processing. The latter can be closely monitored and independently verified, the former can't.

So I would see how easily the crown would be tolerant of Jesuits being involved in the refining process, but not the mining.

I have no idea if refining was a violation of the precepts. Perhaps others more knowledgeable could answer that question.

 

[Springfield]

I'm sorry, what exactly would I be kidding about?

I'm sorry to have broached the subject - this thread isn't the proper venue to pursue it. -30-

 

[CHUDs]

Just a thought, the refining process and the possession of mercury could be still be explained in a context where their direct involvement in mining was virtually nonexistant. Perhaps they came here knowing that at some point deposits of valuable minerals would be found. They could sidestep the Crown's mandate that they not participate in mining by knowing that they could provide an infrastructure for miners. Essentially acting as an assay office and a supply depot. A business venture if you will. If they ran a quick assay or simply amalgamated small amounts of ore that miners brought, they would know what their potential cut from a refining run would be and whether or not it was a worthwhile source. I am playing the Devil's advocate here as I do believe and want to believe, that at least to some extent they were mining in NA. Saying no while shaking your head yes, plausible deniability....Thanks all!

 

[deducer]

I'm sorry to have broached the subject - this thread isn't the proper venue to pursue it. -30-

What I mean to say is I don't understand your comment in context to the answer I gave to your question.

Unless I misunderstood your question, the way I interpreted it was that you were asking on what grounds the church had any rights to claim ownership over something one of its orders had procured potentially without its knowledge, in which case my answer was that it wouldn't have mattered.. insofar as the order was authenticated by the church, it therefore is an extension of the church and whatever it does or procure, ultimately belongs to the church.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

hy aren't the cache locations leaked to unattached confederates posing as TH-ers to get the ball rolling? With the recent legal claims regarding ownership of land-based lost valuables, it should be a straightforward if not lengthy proce

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they were, but so much time passed - that country changes between storms., hurricanes - that their data for relocation is worthless in general. it is assumed that sufficient time was allowed for the "heat to cool off - maybe too much time.Also it is not inconceivable that many of their marks etc, were destroyed by nature or deliberately by treasure hunters

Lupe vega destroyed many of the pertinent marks left to find the Gloria Pan mine, including a stone marker with an arrow and inscription , his reason and theory, "if anyone comes looking for it and the treasure, they will have to include me."

Unfortunately for him,my data didn't rely upon his destroyed marks. and I found it.



Don Jose the one eyed Jack de la Mancha















`
`

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Springfieod===Here's an unsolicited third question: if the Jesuits were (are) in possession of knowledge of large caches of precious metals in North America, why assume the Order or the Church of Rome owns the caches?~~~~~~~~~
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If they publically denied any mining would they have any claim to ownership ? As for any treasurs they are on clear ground, normal commerce would / could cover that,



don Jose

 

[doc-d]

Senor Un Ojo de Tayopa, more clarity, you must have some good coffee there…..
Vaya con Dios

 

[Springfield]

... If they publically denied any mining would they have any claim to ownership ? As for any treasurs they are on clear ground, normal commerce would / could cover that,
don Jose

Yeah, dJ, Mike raised that idea earlier - the Jesuits' dough came from 'legit' commerce, and the caches were in routine trade silver, not mining returns. Seems like that dough would have been long gone before expulsion via the previously described channels. If not, and it was cached before expulsion, the bros would have fewer restrictions recovering same later, as the income was sorta 'legal', and would be used to minister to the flocks - you know, for Jesus. Bottom line: what caches?

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

So many treasures that are not

 

[releventchair]

They sure as heck ain,t where they,re not.

 

[Oroblanco]

Addressing the why/how of hidden treasures and mines - first keep in mind that the Spanish authorities became alarmed on finding the Jesuits implicated in an open rebellion in Spain. Word of the Jesuits plotting with the English, and with less details the Dutch, was published in English journals of the 1760s; the Dutch were certainly a strong naval power at the time and remember that large bank accounts were held in Dutch banks for the Jesuits. The Jesuits in Spanish America may or may not have been "in" on this plotting, but if they were in the loop, it would help explain why they refused to teach their Indians the Spanish language, which is noted by the Franciscans who replaced them in 1768.

Certainly as Mike posted, they knew that trouble was coming well ahead of the expulsion. However one good reason for NOT moving to ship out the amassed treasures would be that they had a plan already in operation, the betrayal to the Dutch. We can never know what might have happened if the king had not expelled them in 1767; perhaps the plot would have been hatched, even a few months later or perhaps (pure speculation) the king moved when he did because he had information about the timing of the planned betrayal to the Dutch, so moved to expel them in time before this betrayal could occur? Had the king delayed, we might have a whole different chapter of southwestern history, involving Dutch rule!

As to who or whom actually did the hiding of the treasures, there are indications of two possible candidates. The padres themselves had hidden the "ornaments of the church" in times of crisis, so must have had ready hiding places they knew of. I am writing this part from memory but think we had posted the incident with father Keller (? correction welcome) and even one with father Kino. The other candidate responsible for hiding these treasures and the one I believe actually responsible are the Indians of the missions themselves. Remember what an English explorer recorded, about how the Indians were trained never to tell anyone of their mines except their confessors, which would be their Jesuits? Or that rather incriminating story from father Nentvig, in which he complains that an Indian will not show a mine to a Spaniard? In Pimeria Alta the padres were simply sent word to come in, and they came in. When the padres did not immediately return, these loyal Indians (whom would not be the entire population) had months of time to conceal the treasures, and the mines. To support this contention, we might note that the Indians of San Xavier had hidden their impressive silver until the Jesuits returned, then brought them out. During the Civil War these silver items were again hidden, and have not been seen since.

Without getting into another black-and-white argument about the Indians feelings toward their padres, based on what evidence we have, some loved them, some hated them. The loyal Indians, and the disaffected as well (For different reasons) would have good reasons to hide the treasures and plenty of opportunity. Look at what occurred in New Mexico in the 1680 revolt, in that case the Indians did a very good job of hiding mines.

Springfield wrote

That's why I asked. Well, good luck to you - I hope you will someday reward us with good news. I remain out of this boat, but I must admit that with recent input from Mike and others, I took a close look at the Pegleg Smith stories and now agree that those desert-varnised nuggets in the Lower Colorado desert would be a good reason to explore those groups of hills. It's out of my range, but it's on my 'Probably Authentic' list, along with a passel of little-known or proprietary stories (man, did I see a hair-raising tube of evidence and a great story from a pro geologist two weeks ago!).

I'm curious. What evidence encourages you to seek La Esmeralda, and why do you believe it?

Because I read a post about it on a forum! <haha>

As to why I am convinced about the mine La Esmeralda, first I would point out that it does not make a difference to me whether the mine was Jesuit, Franciscan or Spanish or Indian for that matter. Specifics - The green, horn silver shown to father Kino and captain Manje on their very first visit to Bac, and Kino's decision to found a mission there. The Jesuit church is not in the same spot as the Franciscan, it was closer to the river and appears to be mostly destroyed by floods over the centuries. There are quite a number of silver mines surrounding the area of the mission, proving that the mine COULD exist, which (to me) is important. You know, you hunt for a gold mine where there is gold, and silver where there is silver.

There is slag in the walls of San Xavier mission church; that same church which visitors reported seeing an estimated $40,000 worth of silver in the altar and ornaments. I believe this amounts to 2 + 2; and the mine would have been an excellent place to hide the wealth of the Mission. The fact that the mine has never been found (the emerald green ore being the giveaway and clincher for anyone whom wished to prove the mine found) and the still missing silver would support the theory that the treasures are hidden in the mine, and since local Indians have not "found" it, I don't think they know where it is now either.

This is not the "whole" case as there is some info I would rather not share, and I don't turn my nose up at Google Earth in hunting it (old trails might lead right to the mine, for example) I will say that finding an old trail which appears to be considerably older than the American trails/roads along with the presence of a number of other silver mines in the area are encouraging. Someone was doing some kind of work in that canyon a very long time ago.

Side point here but we have had several Jesuit members of our forums here, discussing these treasures and mines over the past years. That in itself could be nothing, or it could be proof that the Order still has a real interest in this. It is an interesting point however.

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Here is the portion of Father Och's journal that Mike refers to:

"Besides the three days' toil that went into these vessels, many were worth more than a ducat because of the thousands of gold scales found mixed in with the clay. This gold could not have been collected through washing without an expenditure of labor in excess of the cost. It was true gold as I proved with a bit of quicksilver with which it immediately formed an amalgam. Girls and women fetch water from the brook in these vessels, place them brimful on their heads, and walk along straight as an arrow, balancing them without spilling a drop."

Elsewhere Mike had this to say about the journal:

"2. Father Och's Journals are not 100% attributable. We know that he put them all together during his final years while he lived at the Jesuit College at Wurzburg, Bavaria. He passed away in 1773. Thirty-six years after his death in 1809, a book called "Der S.J. in Neumexico. Nachrichten von seinem Reisen nach dem Spanischen Amerika, seinem dortigen Auftenthalte vom Jahr 1755 bis 1767, und Rückkehr nach Europa 1768. Aus dessen eigenhändigen Aufsätzen" was published. These were the collected writings of Father Och SJ. His journals were kept at the Jesuit College in Wurzburg until most of the city was destroyed in an Allied Air Raid in 1945. I have not personally been able to locate them after that. So, while it is remotely possible that some parts of his journals MAY not have been written by Father Och, all one has to do is to read the entire book translated by Theodore E. Treutline to understand that it is HIGHLY unlikely that those were not the actual writings of Father Och SJ. I ONLY included this in the interest of being intellectually honest in what I say."

Father Och does not say anything about carrying around a dangerous vial of mercury. Nowhere does he claim the quicksilver was even his. We don't read what mission he was at, or what year it was. Were there mines nearby (probably). It's even possible there were miners present, and it was their mercury.

This from Mike:

[Your intentions are well meant, but you put a spin on my words without knowing my thoughts behind them. Same as you are doing with Father Och. Don't read anything into his statements. Take them at face value "I USED SOME QUICKSILVER I CARRY IN A FLASK TO AMALGAMATE THE GOLD FLECKS IN AN INDIAN'S DINNER PLATES."]

Twenty years from now, this story will morph into a lost mine story, with no resemblance to what was originally written, perhaps, by Father Och.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo