JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[Oroblanco]

Joe - I have to agree with Deducer and Mike here on several points. No one has made any deprecating remarks on your knowledge of the southwest history, nor your research. Having seen your library and war room, I am pretty confident that you could name the commandant at Tubac for 1763, or which padre was assigned to San Xavier del Bac for any year and so on. You have a deep range of resources at your fingertips, regardless of what may or may not come to mind for recall in a discussion.

What surprises me most however is that you do not at least hold the Jesuit sources suspect, including fathers Polzer and Burrus SJ, for what they did not admit to that has been shown to be factual, like the fact that the Society of Jesus did own mines in Mexico. The US Park Service wants to protect the archaeological resources, they do not want reckless, mindless treasure hunters (and there are a few, and it only takes a few) ripping out the foundations of the now ancient missions hunting for treasures which are almost certainly not buried there.

Springfield - the kind of treasures you seem to imagine from reading treasure stories probably don't exist. I don't get the same impressions from the same articles or stories. The Jesuits had silver and gold mines - some of that silver was seen in San Xavier del Bac. No one knows where it is today. Could be still there in Arizona. As to your statement about "not flying" that the Jesuits themselves seem to have lost the locations, that is your own conclusion. Based on what info is available, the Jesuits have made at least one attempt to retrieve some of that treasure. The suppression of the whole Society is the logical point when the records were lost, or deliberately destroyed to prevent them falling into the 'wrong' hands. But of course no one is going to force you, or anyone else, to go hunt for a lost Jesuit treasure either especially when you don't believe it ever existed.

Good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

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[Ponchosportal]

I apologize everyone for my ignorance but considering what the Jesuit were doing/providing for the Spanish and the Catholics, if not for thievery, why were the Jesuits removed?

Thank you,
Poncho

 

[Springfield]

From Oroblanco:
... Springfield - the kind of treasures you seem to imagine from reading treasure stories probably don't exist. [Finally you agree.]

I don't get the same impressions from the same articles or stories. [ Molina Document, dozens of treasure stories in newspapers, magazines books and websites - some of which I earlier gave examples of. Common lore.]

The Jesuits had silver and gold mines - some of that silver was seen in San Xavier del Bac. No one knows where it is today. Could be still there in Arizona. As to your statement about "not flying" that the Jesuits themselves seem to have lost the locations, that is your own conclusion. Based on what info is available, the Jesuits have made at least one attempt to retrieve some of that treasure. The suppression of the whole Society is the logical point when the records were lost, or deliberately destroyed to prevent them falling into the 'wrong' hands. [The Jesuits can locate 'bonanza mines', recover tons of precious metals, hide the mines and cache the loot - all under the nose of the Crown - so cleverly that parades of searchers have come up empty-handed trying to recover same for the past 250 years. These 'Navy Seals' of the day, the smartest dudes in the world, the tenacious gladiators for Jesus, either 'forgot' where the goods were, or cowered to the 'wrong guys'? I guess that means if the Jesuits hid the loot so well not even they can find it, then why are we trying to figure out where it is? No, the most likely explanation is the the brothers recovered it generations ago - IF it ever existed, that is.]

But of course no one is going to force you, or anyone else, to go hunt for a lost Jesuit treasure either especially when you don't believe it ever existed. [Have you been actively searching for these caches and mines?]

Good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Springfield wrote

[Finally you agree.]

Not exactly. I am completely convinced there are impressive treasures waiting to be found, however you seem to view them all as bloated out of proportion to reality, as fiction rather than factual.

Springfield also wrote

I guess that means if the Jesuits hid the loot so well not even they can find it, then why are we trying to figure out where it is? No, the most likely explanation is the the brothers recovered it generations ago - IF it ever existed, that is.]

I don't see the quandary you do here nor agree with your "most likely explanation". The Order was suppressed just a few short years after being expelled from Mexico. The "Reformed" Order has a checkered history, and has made several attempts to find something in Mexico, mostly un-successful. Why would they look, if it were all removed generations ago? By the way, the Church and the Order are two separate entities, with two separate treasuries. The Church probably didn't need the money.

Springfield also wrote

[Have you been actively searching for these caches and mines?]

Yes. In fact my last trip to the southwest, most of the time spent was on such "fictions" as you see them. As one example, we spent almost four weeks looking for La Esmeralda, and found plenty of mineralization along with old mines, indicating it is a likely area. I am planning to return to one particular side canyon on my next chance too, as one assay came back with a pleasant surprise. I am a little surprised that you would think that I would argue so long for something I would not hunt for myself.

Poncho wrote

I apologize everyone for my ignorance but considering what the Jesuit were doing/providing for the Spanish and the Catholics, if not for thievery, why were the Jesuits removed?

The Jesuits were deeply involved in political intrigues, even plotting with the Dutch and English to betray the whole of Spanish America to them (most to the Dutch) they were also implicated in several assassinations and uprisings; their wealth was well known to the Crown, but they had "Exemptions" from paying tithes or quintos in many cases so paid nothing or next to nothing. This is why the Spanish authorities searched so diligently for hidden treasures, and did find some. But so far as their having mines and accumulating treasures, the Spanish authorities were mostly un-concerned about it, as they found the Jesuits to be useful in reducing the Amerindians to peace, and in enlarging the Empire.


Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Springy,

When it comes to the question of why would it still be hidden.....................

I have never said that I absolutely know why. I have come up with several possibilities why. Heck, if I knew exactly why, then I might have actually figured out the most important part....WHERE!

You said "When that didn't work..." Nobody EVER made a coherent argument against it being the reason the wealth is still hidden. I have just posited more than one possible reason. It is still my favorite.

See, my key player in the hidden treasure part is Father Roxas SJ (primary) and a couple of others. Knowledge like that would not be entrusted to everybody. Only a few in key places. Father Roxas was definitely a key player. Arizpe is the right place (as that is also a possible place for the origin of the Stone Maps). Roxas is the right guy because he was named Father Vsitador (the second time) in 1764, which was perfect timing. I say perfect timing because THAT was the same year the Jesuit Order was suppressed in all French Territories (after 1759 in Portuguese Territories). The Jesuits knew that it was only a matter of time before their shenanigans caught up with them in Spain. As Father Visitador, he could freely travel anywhere in his specified area (Pimeria Alta), and visiting Missions and Indians would have been a very good excuse for searching for a good hiding place for the Jesuit Wealth. Roxas was known to travel to the far Northern reaches of Pimeria Alta. We have the story of Father Roxas and his silver bell (supposedly hidden in the Superstitions). Father Roxas died still imprisoned in Spain. If he had secrets, they likely died with him. From intimately knowing what happened to their Order first in Portuguese Territories, then in French Territories, they knew they would be arrested, and allowed to take nothing but the clothes on their backs, their breviaries, and a copy of Sir Thomas a Kempis' "An Imitation of Christ." Any mas, letters, etc would have been found. I still believe that the greatest possible reason for the Jesuit Wealth still being where it was hidden is because the very few people that knew its' secrets all died in transit or in prison, without being able to pass the secret on.

I also say that even IF they do know the exact location of their wealth, if they got caught recovering it, they would have a lot of 'splainin to do! All these years of professing such poverty. Saying they had no wealth or rich mines. If they admit to one, they would likely have to admit all. No wanting to chance that, the Church can definitely afford to let things sit where they are.

Either one works, but the first is/was/and will be my favorite.

Mike

 

[deducer]

See, my key player in the hidden treasure part is Father Roxas SJ (primary) and a couple of others. Knowledge like that would not be entrusted to everybody. Only a few in key places. Father Roxas was definitely a key player. Arizpe is the right place (as that is also a possible place for the origin of the Stone Maps). Roxas is the right guy because he was named Father Vsitador (the second time) in 1764, which was perfect timing. I say perfect timing because THAT was the same year the Jesuit Order was suppressed in all French Territories (after 1759 in Portuguese Territories).

Roxas is at the top of my list too, and not just because of what you described of him, e.g., being in the right place at the right time, but he has also been described as being very intelligent, a 'wily' person.

On top of which, information on Roxas is very hard to find. The NPS entry on him remains blank, as is the entry on Arizpe. His biography is missing from a few other resources available to the public.

Also, despite being Father Visitador twice, and also Visitador General (which would have most certainly involved a lot of letters received and sent), the DRSW at Tucson has only a meager handful of his letters, despite the fact that he was continually corresponding with at least two powerful figures in the New World, Governor Juan de Mendoza, and more importantly, with the Father Provincial, Fr. Francisco Zevallos (or Ceballos) the highest ranking Jesuit in the New World at the time, who would most certainly have given his blessing of, or may even have initiated the process of caching the valuables that the Jesuits possessed in the New World.

I have, several times, submitted requests for facsimiles of his letters- those requests have my name on them (which is why I will not publish my name on this forum) and to this day, none of them have gone through.

I also say that even IF they do know the exact location of their wealth, if they got caught recovering it, they would have a lot of 'splainin to do! All these years of professing such poverty. Saying they had no wealth or rich mines. If they admit to one, they would likely have to admit all. No wanting to chance that, the Church can definitely afford to let things sit where they are.

I suspect that the church's position is that they will not actively search for it, but let other people (e.g., TH'ers) do the hard work, and once something is found, they most certainly will jump into the fray for ownership, on the premise that "We had absolutely no idea all that gold was there, but now that we know it was one of ours who put it there, it's therefore ours!"

This position, however hypocritical, presents plausible denial yet does not relinquish ownership. After all, we do know that despite being the biggest denier of Jesuit treasure, Fr. Polzer did not hesitate to swoop down on Mexico City to try and claim ownership of a discovery made there.

 

[Springfield]

Oro: "Yes. In fact my last trip to the southwest, most of the time spent was on such "fictions" as you see them. As one example, we spent almost four weeks looking for La Esmeralda, and found plenty of mineralization along with old mines, indicating it is a likely area. I am planning to return to one particular side canyon on my next chance too, as one assay came back with a pleasant surprise. I am a little surprised that you would think that I would argue so long for something I would not hunt for myself."


That's why I asked. Well, good luck to you - I hope you will someday reward us with good news. I remain out of this boat, but I must admit that with recent input from Mike and others, I took a close look at the Pegleg Smith stories and now agree that those desert-varnised nuggets in the Lower Colorado desert would be a good reason to explore those groups of hills. It's out of my range, but it's on my 'Probably Authentic' list, along with a passel of little-known or proprietary stories (man, did I see a hair-raising tube of evidence and a great story from a pro geologist two weeks ago!).

I'm curious. What evidence encourages you to seek La Esmeralda, and why do you believe it?

 

[releventchair]

Ownership contests when Jesuits were active in S.W. missions may have been along the lines of concealed is not lost,stolen or abandon making in not treasure but property, similar to some recent times arguments/tests of non Jesuit recoveries. Squirreling stuff away was not uncommon by lots of groups. Goods transported in a relay and or stored anywhere along the way not fair game till disowned or confiscated by law or abandon by a documented quit, regardless of time elapsed would be my complaint if I could prove who,s it was and that it was possible for an associate today to be able to prove its provenance and their title to it. Kind of along some arguments leanings both ways in common law vs English law in non sunken recoveries, when owner proven it changes some contests legally. Were the order to prove a cache was of their doing and have current knowledge of where it was and did not abandon it, some legal wrangling to be expected arguing" right of property", and" right of possession", to the utmost.

 

[Springfield]

... I suspect that the church's position is that they will not actively search for it, but let other people (e.g., TH'ers) do the hard work, and once something is found, they most certainly will jump into the fray for ownership, on the premise that "We had absolutely no idea all that gold was there, but now that we know it was one of ours who put it there, it's therefore ours!"

This position, however hypocritical, presents plausible denial yet does not relinquish ownership. After all, we do know that despite being the biggest denier of Jesuit treasure, Fr. Polzer did not hesitate to swoop down on Mexico City to try and claim ownership of a discovery made there.

I heard a similar claim 15 or 20 years ago in a private email from a 'recognizable' TH-er who thought he was on the verge of locating a large cache in the Superstitions and was negotiating with 'the Jesuits'. Nothing came of it.

One weakness to the argument - and a significant one, IMO - is the obvious question: why aren't the cache locations leaked to unattached confederates posing as TH-ers to get the ball rolling? With the recent legal claims regarding ownership of land-based lost valuables, it should be a straightforward if not lengthy process.

 

[releventchair]

A good question Springfield. Hard telling why some folks poking around out there really are. Even a modern Jesuit could, as a question of purpose is not necessarily going to be answered candidly if their prospecting or tracking something or someone or are just taciturn by the nature of their business.

 

[CHUDs]

Thank you all for the informing and entertaining thread! I'm new to the world of TH ing but have been in love with the history of exploration, especially of the New World, for as long as I can remember. This is simply an observation and I hope not to sound to foolish in posting it. Is it possible that early Jesuits simply ran the refining process and amassed a great deal of wealth that way? They would have the knowledge and man power to put together a large ish operation. They would be able to sidestep the rules of not possessing any knowledge of mining or actively mining. Metal working was a common and extremely useful skill to possess and was not necessarily linked to the mining process. If a prospector came to them with mineralized ore and they refined it for him, they could ask for half of the finished product as payment. Having nowhere else to go, the miner would concede knowing that it is easier to carry and cache gold than ore. The Jesuits may have also acted as a bank or repository for the miners. People go missing and die and then that banked gold becomes theirs, slowly amassing and eventually needing to be hid in a larger and better spot.
For all that I've just said, I do happen to believe that the Jesuit's were mining in North America and likely did have large hidden or lost mines which may still be missing...I just don't have any proof that I believe this...haha.
Keep up the good work everyone! Oh! Has anyone heard of Jesuit or Fransican mining going on in Big Sur? The area between Carmel and San Luis Obispo and San Antonio de Padua. I spend some time there and there is definately some interesting history. I know there is gold in that area. It is extremely difficult to travel through and very rugged and remote. The military also owns a huge chunk of land near to the Los Burros Mining District adjacent to San Antonio de Padua. This may just be some wishful thinking on my part, that there is a potential mystery and some exploration in a nearby locale, but it may not be either...
Have a great day y'all!

 

[deducer]

One weakness to the argument - and a significant one, IMO - is the obvious question: why aren't the cache locations leaked to unattached confederates posing as TH-ers to get the ball rolling? With the recent legal claims regarding ownership of land-based lost valuables, it should be a straightforward if not lengthy process.

Not necessarily a weakness.

Who's to say they didn't get the same set of cryptic instructions or directions that we did?

Don't think the Jesuits would have gone to all that trouble with the Stone Maps, for example, only to leave very clear instructions elsewhere.

 

[deducer]

Is it possible that early Jesuits simply ran the refining process and amassed a great deal of wealth that way? They would have the knowledge and man power to put together a large ish operation. They would be able to sidestep the rules of not possessing any knowledge of mining or actively mining. Metal working was a common and extremely useful skill to possess and was not necessarily linked to the mining process. If a prospector came to them with mineralized ore and they refined it for him, they could ask for half of the finished product as payment. Having nowhere else to go, the miner would concede knowing that it is easier to carry and cache gold than ore. The Jesuits may have also acted as a bank or repository for the miners. People go missing and die and then that banked gold becomes theirs, slowly amassing and eventually needing to be hid in a larger and better spot.

This is a very excellent observation, and one that SH raised a few pages back.

Frankly this would make for the perfect loophole in that the precepts while banning knowledge and use of mining, did not explicitly ban knowledge of refining. IMHO, very worthy of looking into.

And this theory is very Jesuit-typical in that they would most certainly have identified and occupied a crucial choke point in the pipeline of the mining economy, one they could have a monopoly over and consequently be able to influence the mining economy at will.

 

[CHUDs]

Sorry if I re hashed a point already made...just a little hard to keep it all straight after 136 pages of the thread! All very interesting and informative though. Keep it up!

 

[Springfield]

Not necessarily a weakness.

Who's to say they didn't get the same set of cryptic instructions or directions that we did?

Don't think the Jesuits would have gone to all that trouble with the Stone Maps, for example, only to leave very clear instructions elsewhere.

The first question is: where did 'we' get our info? If the SJ wanted agents to retrieve their caches so that they could seize the goods later via legal means, don't you think they would have provided their agents with the info they needed for recovery?

The second question: what, besides 60 years of fruitless speculation, clearly ties the stone maps to the Jesuits?

Here's an unsolicited third question: if the Jesuits were (are) in possession of knowledge of large caches of precious metals in North America, why assume the Order or the Church of Rome owns the caches?

 

[CHUDs]

I must make another point too. Not everyone reveals where their cache is, even if they are sick or near death. It may just not be that important at the time. There may also be no maps. For example, and this is a far flung one,when my grandmother died and we were cleaning out here house, we found a cache in her attic, "hidden" away. Simply a box put between the rafters and covered with plywood. My grandfather must have done it 30-40 years prior. This box did contain treasure but no one, not my father or his brothers who grew up there knew that their parents even possessed it. My grandfather died in 1972 and this cached was discovered in 2006. The box contained labels from prohibition era canadian whisky bottles (we have a bootlegging history on both sides of the family!), my great uncle's brand, an old captain's hat, an ivory topped cane and several whale teeth and an ivory cameo brooch, some rose gold rings, some large cut semi-precious stones, mostly amethyst and one of the logs of the whaleship Daniel Webster. We donated the ship's log because it was the only one missing in the ship's history from the Whaling museum collection. The rest of the items are split between myself, my parents and my sister. Needless to say we were floored that this treasure cache sat in my Grandmother's attic for years without the knowledge of any living soul! There's treasure in them hills...just sayin!

 

[Springfield]

This is a very excellent observation, and one that SH raised a few pages back.

Frankly this would make for the perfect loophole in that the precepts while banning knowledge and use of mining, did not explicitly ban knowledge of refining

It is an interesting idea, but I believe most, if not all folks, consider recovery of metal from ore, in addition to accumulating the ore, as both resting under the umbrella of of 'mining'. Clearly. Besides, if you separate refining from mining, then why all the pages of hubbub here on mercury? It still doesn't answer the question of why, if the Jesuits had stockpiled precious metals using this business model, why didn't they later recover it?

 

[kanabite]

ya know i have very purposely refrained from posting on this thread , but i have a stupid question. does anyone know of a possible link between viceroy Mendoza and any higher ups in the Jesuit order ? this is not really relevant to what the crown did or did not do , but more of a curiosity for me . circumstances may have came about that Mendoza knew somethings about some of these" areas of interest" , that the king was not . well i guess Mendoza knew , along with some French " pirates" , but one of the two may have indeed needed a more secretive type of group to assist . and of course this thinking is speculative , but the simplest answer sometimes pans out. i mean i have thought about the French connection before , and i am no expert on your Jesuits , but does anyone else think they could have acquired treasures based upon what had already been going on over here priory to any Spanish occupation . I'm sure these guys probably liked fish that jumped into the boat , if ya know what i mean. thanks in advance .///bob

 

[Springfield]

Mendoza was an interesting figure. He dealt with Franciscans in the New World - the Jesuits didn't show up until the 17th century. The SJ came into existence during Mendoza's lifetime - but contact between them ...?

 

[deducer]

The first question is: where did 'we' get our info? If the SJ wanted agents to retrieve their caches so that they could seize the goods later via legal means, don't you think they would have provided their agents with the info they needed for recovery?

That's assuming they had the information in the first place.

One of the scenarios I have been entertaining is that the Jesuits of the New World did not expect that their expulsion would be so violent and injurious. They most certainly knew it was coming, but IMHO did not expect the harsh and extreme treatment that was to come, including their banishment to many distant parts.

They may have thought they were to simply be deported back to Europe.

In this way, I am sure that much of the information regarding the wealth did not make it back.

The second question: what, besides 60 years of fruitless speculation, clearly ties the stone maps to the Jesuits?

There are three 100+ pages threads on this forum directly addressing the stones, that answer this question. If, despite that, you are still asking this question, I doubt I would be able to answer to your satisfaction.

Here's an unsolicited third question: if the Jesuits were (are) in possession of knowledge of large caches of precious metals in North America, why assume the Order or the Church of Rome owns the caches?

Because the Jesuits answer to the church. They are an order of the catholic church.