James Addison Reavis would be proud

[markmar]

Interesting story, thanks for posting it.

Strange how it talks about the Apaches spending a winter to collapse a mountainside over the mine, yet Waltz said when he first came upon the mine years later, Mexicans came out of the shaft. So the mine wasn't covered then. For this to happen, the Mexicans must have cleared the landslide away. A half dozen men with only hand tools? I have my doubts about the Apache landslide story.

Another red flag for me is the story of how the wife's great uncle just happened to be Waltz's partner. And unknown to the family for half a century are letters written by him that provide secret clues to the mine. The only clue they're willing to part with is the revelation that the landmark peak is Weaver's Needle, not Sombrero Butte, like everyone believes (so they claim). Funny how 36 years earlier in 1895, P.C. Bicknell's widely circulated article identified Weaver's Needle as the landmark peak. So I have my doubts about this story, too.

It sure would be nice to know where that "Yellow Medicine spring" is. If anyone has any info on that please post it! The location of a spring full of arsenic should be common knowledge to all who enter those hills.

I believe the Weiser story of being relative with Mrs Howland is somehow true , because the Howlands said after reading Wiser's letters , they found some remarcable clues to the " Teuton's " mine . These clues are related direct to your question about the Yellow Medicine Spring , which is close to the mine . Don't forget they said found there a corral , clue which fit with the region of the two room house across the mine .
If you ever will can to decrypt and found where the Latin stone heart map lies , then for sure you will know where the Yellow spring is , because is written on the map in Latin .

 

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[PotBelly Jim]

This article provides some good tidbits, such as what Jim Bark thought of the Peralta-Reavis grant...it also looks like the author had some form of access to the "Bark Notes" in 1937...

View attachment 1602525

 

[PotBelly Jim]

And this one is one of the most confusing articles I've ever seen...sometimes, the author seems remarkably well-informed...sometimes, he seems out to lunch...perhaps normal for a newspaper article on the LDM I guess...what struck me was the date, 1902...I've not yet been able to pin down his sources for the original article (this is a reprint), but as of now, it seems likely he used more than one.

View attachment 1602526

 

[markmar]

This article provides some good tidbits, such as what Jim Bark thought of the Peralta-Reavis grant...it also looks like the author had some form of access to the "Bark Notes" in 1937...

View attachment 1602525

Jim

IMO if the " baron " Reavis would knew where the rich mine was , he just would made a claim on it and all would been fine . But i believe he wanted to claim the land grant for Real Estate purpose at first and after the copper deposits close to Globe .
When the trial occured , the LDM story was only rumor at the bar saloons of Phoenix and other surrounding villages .

 

[azdave35]

Jim

IMO if the " baron " Reavis would knew where the rich mine was , he just would made a claim on it and all would been fine . But i believe he wanted to claim the land grant for Real Estate purpose at first and after the copper deposits close to Globe .
When the trial occured , the LDM story was only rumor at the bar saloons of Phoenix and other surrounding villages .

marius...you have your reavis's confused...there were two reavis...one was the hermit with the apple orchard and beautiful cabin and the other was the crooked land baron

 

[markmar]

marius...you have your reavis's confused...there were two reavis...one was the hermit with the apple orchard and beautiful cabin and the other was the crooked land baron

Dave , i was talking about the " baron " Reavis . If the " hermit " Reavis would knew about a rich mine , then that would been somewhere around Rogers canyon and wouldn't been the real LDM .

 

[azdave35]

Dave , i was talking about the " baron " Reavis . If the " hermit " Reavis would knew about a rich mine , then that would been somewhere around Rogers canyon and wouldn't been the real LDM .

alot of people think thats exactly where the ldm is

 

[Matthew Roberts]

The article about Jim Bark going into the Superstitions to hunt the Lost Dutchman Mine is interesting on several levels.

Nowhere does Jim Bark mention Sims Ely. Ely was supposedly his old partner in the LDM search.

Bark was taking his nephew John Spangler into the mountains with him on this search.

I talked with John Spangler about his LDM searches. John lived just a few blocks from where I live now in Huntington Beach, California. John's nephew lives here in Huntington Beach also.
Spangler said his uncle (Jim Bark) had first hand knowledge that the Lost Dutchman Mine was real and located somewhere in the Superstitions. He never would divulge what that first hand information was but it was enough to convince Bark and his nephew John Spangler.

After Adolph Ruth died in the Superstitions, Jim Bark believed he was betrayed by his old friends, Tex Barkley and Jeff Adams, that they kept him in the dark about things they had found while searching for Ruth's body.

Jim Bark died less than two years after that article appeared and he went to his grave firmly convinced the LDM was real.

Matthew

 

[Lucky Baldwin]

I believe the Weiser story of being relative with Mrs Howland is somehow true , because the Howlands said after reading Wiser's letters , they found some remarcable clues to the " Teuton's " mine . These clues are related direct to your question about the Yellow Medicine Spring , which is close to the mine . Don't forget they said found there a corral , clue which fit with the region of the two room house across the mine .
If you ever will can to decrypt and found where the Latin stone heart map lies , then for sure you will know where the Yellow spring is , because is written on the map in Latin .

Thank you Mr. Markmar. I missed the point about it being near the mine. I reread the article to see what else i missed and found this part interesting



Sounds to me like 'ol Wiser didn't like his relatives much. So even if he was the wife's great uncle, I don't think he'd give him clues to the mine. Look at the fact that he had a chance to leave his brother a message at the end and he flatly refused.

 

[Lucky Baldwin]

Jim

IMO if the " baron " Reavis would knew where the rich mine was , he just would made a claim on it and all would been fine . But i believe he wanted to claim the land grant for Real Estate purpose at first and after the copper deposits close to Globe .
When the trial occured , the LDM story was only rumor at the bar saloons of Phoenix and other surrounding villages .

I remember reading somewhere that J.A. Reavis wanted the grant for the water rights to both the Salt and Gila rivers. As I recall he even started a water company that planned a large reservoir and aquaduct to the Gila Bend area.

Here's a report on how the fraud started.

This is from the front page of the Arizona Republican Phoenix Arizona, Sunday, June 2, 1895



A clip from that article

 

[markmar]

Thank you Mr. Markmar. I missed the point about it being near the mine. I reread the article to see what else i missed and found this part interesting

View attachment 1603008

Sounds to me like 'ol Wiser didn't like his relatives much. So even if he was the wife's great uncle, I don't think he'd give him clues to the mine. Look at the fact that he had a chance to leave his brother a message at the end and he flatly refused.

Hi LuckyBaldwin

That's could been true , but don't forget the relations and the opinions about relatives can change every day . What Wiser told to Walker , was his conclusion in the last day of his life , which IMO don't reflects his past tries to has good relations with his relatives .

 

[markmar]

I remember reading somewhere that J.A. Reavis wanted the grant for the water rights to both the Salt and Gila rivers. As I recall he even started a water company that planned a large reservoir and aquaduct to the Gila Bend area.

Here's a report on how the fraud started.

This is from the front page of the Arizona Republican Phoenix Arizona, Sunday, June 2, 1895

View attachment 1603021

A clip from that article

View attachment 1603022
View attachment 1603024

Yes , to take the water rights would been a most cheaper way to supply with water the future for sale lands . In that era the water was the only important option which maybe had to has a land which was promoting for a house . Today are required water , electricity and telephone wire ( at least ). So , a real estate bussiness was in the Reavis mind .

The odd with the case of Reavis land grant is that we have saw and heard only about the " fabricated " Spanish document . IMO the only document which could undoubtful prove the Reavis document was fake , would been the document Miguel Peralta sold to Willing , document which we never saw and for sure it should been used in the trial .
IMO , the only " fakes " were the Reavis advocats .

How you know I made an esthetic surgery if you don't know how I looked like before ?

 

[Lucky Baldwin]

Hi LuckyBaldwin

That's could been true , but don't forget the relations and the opinions about relatives can change every day . What Wiser told to Walker , was his conclusion in the last day of his life , which IMO don't reflects his past tries to has good relations with his relatives .

Hi markmar

That true, but look at the timeline. Wiser meets Waltz in Tucson, they fit-out and leave for the mine. They find the mine, the Apaches find them and the gun battle starts. Wiser escapes to the desert and either wanders in or is brought in to the doc. Then he makes his statement to the doc refusing to leave a message for his relatives.

When did he write letters (more than one) with clues to the mine? When he was in Tucson he had just met Waltz and didn't know where the mine was. So he would have had to have written and mailed the letters after the gun battle with the Apaches and before he made it to the doc. Even if he did write at least two letters on his trip across the desert, where did he mail them?

See what I mean? The letters just don't fit in. That's why I find their existence questionable.

 

[Lucky Baldwin]

Yes , to take the water rights would been a most cheaper way to supply with water the future for sale lands . In that era the water was the only important option which maybe had to has a land which was promoting for a house . Today are required water , electricity and telephone wire ( at least ). So , a real estate bussiness was in the Reavis mind .

The odd with the case of Reavis land grant is that we have saw and heard only about the " fabricated " Spanish document . IMO the only document which could undoubtful prove the Reavis document was fake , would been the document Miguel Peralta sold to Willing , document which we never saw and for sure it should been used in the trial .
IMO , the only " fakes " were the Reavis advocats .

How you know I made an esthetic surgery if you don't know how I looked like before ?

Since that document would prove the case for the gov't, I'll bet Reavis distroyed it before the first trial in the 1880s. You got me thinking "where are the Peralta Grant papers?"

I found this on page 1 of the Arizona Republican Phoenix Arizona, Sunday, July 3, 1904



So the forgeries were kept for 9 years then distroyed. Sounds like only pictures of Reavis' handiwork exist today.

 

[markmar]

Hi markmar

That true, but look at the timeline. Wiser meets Waltz in Tucson, they fit-out and leave for the mine. They find the mine, the Apaches find them and the gun battle starts. Wiser escapes to the desert and either wanders in or is brought in to the doc. Then he makes his statement to the doc refusing to leave a message for his relatives.

When did he write letters (more than one) with clues to the mine? When he was in Tucson he had just met Waltz and didn't know where the mine was. So he would have had to have written and mailed the letters after the gun battle with the Apaches and before he made it to the doc. Even if he did write at least two letters on his trip across the desert, where did he mail them?

See what I mean? The letters just don't fit in. That's why I find their existence questionable.

I haven't been there but I'll bet how the time frame was bigger than a day maybe a year , from the first day Waltz and Wiser found the mine till the Apache came and attacked them . Also I believe the Apache attacked only Wiser , because if was otherwise , then that would been Waltz's last day

From my part , I don't believe what the newspapers write about LDM , because if you read 100 ( so to speak ) articles , you will see 100 different versions .
IMO the Walker story is made up , because there wouldn't existed any chance a run away from the Apache warriors . The only chance to remain alive would been to kill all the Apache , case which seems impossible because the Apache surprised him ( Weiser ) . So , IMO if the event of the Apache attack was true , then Wiser's remains are buried somewhere close to the LDM .​

 

[markmar]

Since that document would prove the case for the gov't, I'll bet Reavis distroyed it before the first trial in the 1880s. You got me thinking "where are the Peralta Grant papers?"

I found this on page 1 of the Arizona Republican Phoenix Arizona, Sunday, July 3, 1904

View attachment 1603337

So the forgeries were kept for 9 years then distroyed. Sounds like only pictures of Reavis' handiwork exist today.

Why to destroy them ? That shows a fear of a future opening of the case under another perspective with new technology and further evidences which would supported Reavis claims .

 

[Oroblanco]

Not to derail this topic, just to address a couple of items; I have forgotten who asked the questions.

We do have an alternative story of how Waltz discovered his mine; the version found in the Pioneer Interviews has a much simpler sequence of events, that Waltz hired a carpenter (also a Dutchman) in Florence to build him a portable drywasher, and that by using this drywasher he was able to trace the gold back to the vein. All are free to accept or dismiss this as you please.

The Peralta saga came into public circulation in the 1870s, Barry Storm included a version of it in his first book the Trail of the Lost Dutchman, and links Peralta to "Jacobs and Ludy" in a tale that closely dovetails with the widely accepted version of the LDM only it is Jacobs and Ludy who meet Peralta in Mexico and earn the mine etc. It is however a silver mine, known to have rich pockets of gold found in it. There is also a newspaper article in which the Peralta brothers have been attacked by Apaches, one being killed and the other escaped with serious wounds, after encountering the warriors near their mine which was NEAR the Superstition mountains. It is possible that this is the origin of the 'Peralta massacre' tale.

A little digging turned up that indeed there were two Union soldiers named Ludy whom came from Missouri and were discharged in Arizona; they had 18 years age difference between them and are NOT listed as brothers or father and son, so MAY be the origin of the "nephew" part of the LDM tale. However there was no "Jacobs" that was the first name of one of the two Ludy men, and of course they were Civil War veterans but not Confederates.

Please do continue, apologies for drifting off topic there.

 

[nobodie]

Oroblanco,
Thank you.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

The article about Jim Bark going into the Superstitions to hunt the Lost Dutchman Mine is interesting on several levels.

Nowhere does Jim Bark mention Sims Ely. Ely was supposedly his old partner in the LDM search.

Bark was taking his nephew John Spangler into the mountains with him on this search.

I talked with John Spangler about his LDM searches. John lived just a few blocks from where I live now in Huntington Beach, California. John's nephew lives here in Huntington Beach also.
Spangler said his uncle (Jim Bark) had first hand knowledge that the Lost Dutchman Mine was real and located somewhere in the Superstitions. He never would divulge what that first hand information was but it was enough to convince Bark and his nephew John Spangler.

After Adolph Ruth died in the Superstitions, Jim Bark believed he was betrayed by his old friends, Tex Barkley and Jeff Adams, that they kept him in the dark about things they had found while searching for Ruth's body.

Jim Bark died less than two years after that article appeared and he went to his grave firmly convinced the LDM was real.

Matthew

Here's another...Sims Ely was editor of the AZ Republican when this story ran...I've read enough of his editorials to say it sure looks like Sims Ely wrote this piece about his old friend Jim Bark...and given the date, I think it may have been a friendly April Fools Day jab at his buddy...apologize for the quality, it was the only copy I could find...but I think it's worth reading...

View attachment 1607107

 

[sdcfia]

Interesting snippet about Adamsville.