James Addison Reavis would be proud

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FOLKS : May I suggest you just might expand your search in areas that are adjacent to the Supes. > Possibly Red Mt., Az. Dam Butte.

 

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[azdave35]

FOLKS : May I suggest you just might expand your search in areas that are adjacent to the Supes. > Possibly Red Mt., Az. Dam Butte.

the reason we dont expand the search to the red mountain area is because it is the indian reservation and they wont let whitey on their land

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Deducer, Potbelly Jim,

Something for you to consider.

Florentine Otero was one of the men with Miguel Peralta and the other Mexican miners at the Valencia in Black Canyon. He sold a part of the Valencia and his name appears in Book 1 of the Yavapai Records 1864-1865.

Sabino Otero was a nephew of Florentine Otero. Otero's great grandfather received a grant of land from King Charles of Spain on January 10, 1789. The grant was located near Tubac which then was Mexico and today is Arizona.

That 1789 land grant is in the Hayden library at ASU in Tempe, Arizona. In Sabino Otero's biography it tells of this land grant to his grandfather and the words of the grant are transcribed in his biography.

The King of Spain granted many land grants to Mexicans living in Sonora and what is today Arizona. These grants were of all sizes and description and for various uses.

Miguel Peralta's father also had a land grant, similar to this one, with him at the Valencia and on October 20, 1864 he sold it to George Willing for $1000

The Peralta land grant sold to Willing at the Valencia became the basis for the much larger land grant in the James Reavis land fraud.

The Peralta's were innocent, they sold Willing a legal and lawful grant of land. It was Charles Gitt and James Reavis who forged/changed that grant and increased it's size.

There are other land grants from the King of Spain at the Hayden library, Otero's is not the only one.

I'm attaching a copy of the Otero bio with the grant wording.

 

[nobodie]

Lots of information, thank you.

 

[Old]

Howdy gentlemen,

I’ve enjoyed this discussion immensely.

Matthew is spot on in what he has shared. IMO……….All would be well served to take a deeper look at what he has shared. Downline Peralta descendants were most certainly heavily involved with Jacob Waltz, both in California and in Arizona. Check those connections for yourself. They are very revealing. Also; there is yet another prominent Mexican family (not yet named in this thread) that plays a significant role.

Be careful to sort your stories into clues to caches and clues to mine locations. They are two different stories, each with its own history. They only overlap superficially by both the who and the how.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Howdy gentlemen,

I’ve enjoyed this discussion immensely.

Matthew is spot on in what he has shared. IMO……….All would be well served to take a deeper look at what he has shared. Downline Peralta descendants were most certainly heavily involved with Jacob Waltz, both in California and in Arizona. Check those connections for yourself. They are very revealing. Also; there is yet another prominent Mexican family (not yet named in this thread) that plays a significant role.

Be careful to sort your stories into clues to caches and clues to mine locations. They are two different stories, each with its own history. They only overlap superficially by both the who and the how.

Hey Old,

Good to hear from you! Thanks for the tip on sorting info sources between caches/mines...very interesting and makes me wonder...would like to hear more, if you can...

There are lots of questions I have and a few things that stick in my craw about Miguel Peralta and how much he knew about Peralta mines in the Supes...one is that I don't think Miguel Peralta was afraid of ANYTHING...looking at his life, it seems he tried to settle down and live the ol' white-picket-fence life, and he wasn't quite able to pull it off...he kind of strikes me as a less violent Doc Holliday, kind of similar lives...but he seemed more at home at the tables and in the saloons than he was in his store. Maybe I'm wrong...but a guy like that, I just don't see what keeps him out of the Supes if he knows there's a mine in there...

Then the point Marius brought up was a little horrifying to think about...if it was Miguel that tipped Waltz off about a mine there...and then if Waltz did in fact kill some folks at the mine, then when he gets down there and looks at the bodies and it turns out he just shot some innocent guys he knew...that's a life altering event...no matter what he says, he knows Miguel will never believe him...just another gringo that stuck a knife in his back... and if those guys also were related to Miguel Peralta, and now Peralta has to deal with the families...why did you ever tell that German about the mine/s, etc. etc....ay Caramba, that could explain a lot of how both Waltz and Miguel approached things from that point on...maybe none of that happened, but when Marius brought it up it sure gave me some food for thought....

A question for you, Matthew, everyone...has anyone seen the document Willing had? From what I've been able to find about the court case, it sounds like he didn't have the actual grant, but a piece of paper written out to him in the camps at Black Canyon...anyone know? Thanks, Jim

 

[Old]

Hi Jim, Good thoughts on Miguel. He's not the mover and shaker in the LDM/Stone Map stories (IMO). For my money........look more to the Peralta women and who they married. Its also interesting to keep in mind that in early Mexican culture it was the maternal name that was carried forward and "Americanized" as surname at about the time we concentrate on as these stories developed.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

I agree with Old concerning Miguel L. Peralta. While he was undoubtedly aware of other mining operations his family had been involved in, I doubt very much if he ever had any first hand experience with the Lost Dutchman mine of Jacob Waltz.

The mistake most people make is they take one individual or event and try to cram it into every scenario and story and fail to recognize any other possibility.

Gabriel Peralta who lived on the south half of Waltz's quarter section is a good candidate to have told Waltz stories of Mexican mines in the Superstition Mountains.

There is just no way to say positively how Waltz found the LDM. The only account we have to go on is the deathbed confession in which Waltz told Holmes he accidently stumbled on three Mexicans working the mine. You either believe that account or you don't. No one can prove that account is 100% the truth and no one can prove 100% it isn't. Everyone has to make these determinations for themselves.

Best,

Matthew

 

[nobodie]

I may have missed it somewhere, but does anyone have information on the Gonzalez side of the clan. I thought I read somewhere that they had a percentage of one of the mines and were in the area of the attack. I know the Peraltas are the main subjects of the mines but maybe a little information on the Gonzalez side.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

I may have missed it somewhere, but does anyone have information on the Gonzalez side of the clan. I thought I read somewhere that they had a percentage of one of the mines and were in the area of the attack. I know the Peraltas are the main subjects of the mines but maybe a little information on the Gonzalez side.

nobodie,

The Gonzales connection comes from both Erwin Ruth and Barry Storm. The story goes Erwin Ruth helped one of the Gonzales while down in Mexico and in gratitude was given map(s) to gold mine(s) in the Superstition Mountains. Gonzales told Ruth the map was a Peralta map.

Barry Storm tells much the same story linking Gonzales with Peralta.

Whether this is true or not is up to the individual to decide for themselves. Both Gonzales and Peralta family members filed mining claims in Arizona after 1865 but not jointly.

What everyone should understand is that the Mexicans did not do things like the American's did. When Arizona was wide open for Mexicans to come and mine gold, silver and copper they usually came as a family or extended family with enough men to both mine and defend themselves from the hostile Indians.

This is apparent in the Valencia mining effort that the Peralta's, Arvizu's, and other related family members got together and came north. These family groups would locate a prospect and then spread out and cover the countryside looking for other mines and placers. They would then systematically work the prospects for a few months, then cover them over and return to Mexico. Months later they would return to the mines and start the process all over again. This went along just great until the Americans came into the country and took over everything (1864).

Other than the Erwin Ruth, Barry Storm connection I have found nothing that says the Gonzales and Peralta's were closely related or partners in mining. That doesn't mean they weren't it just means some further evidence has yet to surface.

Best,

Matthew

 

[nobodie]

Matthew,
again I thank you, I thought maybe there was more to it.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I may have missed it somewhere, but does anyone have information on the Gonzalez side of the clan. I thought I read somewhere that they had a percentage of one of the mines and were in the area of the attack. I know the Peraltas are the main subjects of the mines but maybe a little information on the Gonzalez side.

Hi Nobodie,

There were a lot of stories about the Peralta operation in the Supes that included a Gonzales party...some said the Peraltas were working one area, the Gonzales's were working another, when the attack occurred...some said there were only 2 Gonzales kids that survived...and still further that records still existed in NM about the negotiations to get some Gonzales kids back from the indians who captured them...some of those stories said the Gonzales's were able to escape, while the Peraltas were massacred...so don't think you're going crazy or something, you probably did read it!!

Doc Rosecrans wrote about the Gonzales's...there was a lady named Sina Lewis who put a lot of stock in the Gonzales/Supes story...had some claims based on it...I don't have a copy of Doc's "book" anymore, (darn it...most people don't put much stock in Doc but I still wish I had it... lost it somewhere in all those haphazard trips around the globe courtesy of my Rich Uncle Sam) but I just looked on "the other channel" and a cursory inspection of old posts tells me my memory is not far off...so maybe that's what you're remembering? Best regards, Jim

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Hi Jim, ....<SNIP>..... For my money........look more to the Peralta women and who they married. Its also interesting to keep in mind that in early Mexican culture it was the maternal name that was carried forward and "Americanized" as surname at about the time we concentrate on as these stories developed.

That's awesome. Thank you!

Gabriel Peralta who lived on the south half of Waltz's quarter section is a good candidate to have told Waltz stories of Mexican mines in the Superstition Mountains.

Also awesome...thanks...it probably wont surprise you to learn I had no idea about this guy

Best regards, Jim

 

[markmar]

From what i have read in Barry Storm accounts , Gonzales(z) was son of Manuel Peralta . Manuel should been brother with Ramon Peralta , Pedro Peralta and Miguel Peralta , brothers who together found and worked the placers and mines in the Superstitions .
Cristobal Peralta , known from the Salazar survey story , should been first or second ( in blood line ) cousin with Gonzales Peralta , son of Manuel Peralta , so Gonzales was born about middle of 1850's .

I believe at the beginning , in the process to working the mines and placers , the four Peralta brothers share their activities on mining , and separated the regions with mines or placers equal in richness to every brother , but the gold which they have amassed was shared equal to every brother and they have used the same mine for caching it . From the maps which are in the web , we can see how Manuel Peralta worked the region around the " knob " mine ( he signed the map ) , the map used in the Dutcman's mine movie . The " knob " mine clue came from Erwin Ruth , maybe told him by Gonzales when gave a map ( with the laurel grove clue ) to Erwin in excange for his life .

Now at the end of Peralta mining era , only Gonzales came at the scene and more later Cristobal who was very old to enter the mountains and to find what was looking for . The other cousins maybe just choosed to don't go of the death fear and after the wise advices of their parents . They had lost many relatives in those mountains and maybe thought how the gold hasn't much value over their lifes .

IMO , in 1876 Gonzales found the cache with the processed gold ( not bars included ) and took some . The story which said Gonzales to Charles Clark was a big lie , because the map he possessed at that time , showed another region and at the camp ( at the Salt River camp ) where he supposedly found the gold , there weren't another claims of finding gold in that region from the persons who found the arrastras close to the camp after the massacre .

The mine Gonzales was looking for in 1876 , is the same Cristobal had as target in the map he possessed in the Salazar story ( always IMO ).

 

[deducer]

Hi Jim, Good thoughts on Miguel. He's not the mover and shaker in the LDM/Stone Map stories (IMO).

Peraltas/LDM have absolutely nothing to do with the Stone Maps. Two completely different things.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Peraltas/LDM have absolutely nothing to do with the Stone Maps. Two completely different things.

Hi Deducer, happy Sunday to you,

This is kind of off topic, but have you ever seen any of the "stone maps" (I'm not sure if that's the correct terminology) that were reportedly made in Mexico to record mining claims down there? I was looking through some stuff to brush up on the Reavis case and ran across a reference to it...kind of piqued my interest as I'd not heard that before and thought ii might be something you would have some background in...Best regards, Jim

 

[Old]

Good morning Arthur,

Glad to know you DO know the difference. Grammatically, I should have used an "or" instead of a /. My bad.

Perhaps someday we can elaborate on the odd occurrence of how they do overlap by name and why there is so much confusion. Or maybe not.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Good morning Arthur,

Glad to know you DO know the difference. Grammatically, I should have used an "or" instead of a /. My bad.

Perhaps someday we can elaborate on the odd occurrence of how they do overlap by name and why there is so much confusion. Or maybe not.

Happy Sunday Mornin' to you Old,

I sincerely hope you guys can get together on the stone maps thing, but not any of my business so I will just wish you all luck.

I'm trying to formulate a strategy based on the tip you gave me yesterday on the female Peralta line...I was going to start with the LDS records in Family Search, and was wondering how they addressed the problem of the surnames switching from female to male lineage...didn't see anything that jumped out on how they work it...I guess the first thing I'll do is try to find out who the Peralta men married, as you suggested, and start working back to see what happens...anyway, I'm not very experienced with ancestry type websites to begin with, so I wanted to know if there is another source I should be looking at other than Family Search...I'm limited to the internet right now as I'm back in PA...thanks, Jim

 

[deducer]

Hi Deducer, happy Sunday to you,

This is kind of off topic, but have you ever seen any of the "stone maps" (I'm not sure if that's the correct terminology) that were reportedly made in Mexico to record mining claims down there? I was looking through some stuff to brush up on the Reavis case and ran across a reference to it...kind of piqued my interest as I'd not heard that before and thought ii might be something you would have some background in...Best regards, Jim

Hi Jim,

Many sorts of stone maps serving all kinds of purposes in Mexico. The Stone Maps that we speak of, in the SMHS, represent something completely different and unrelated to Mexico. Someday, when the truth emerges, it'll be something that comes right out of left field.

 

[deducer]

Good morning Arthur,

Glad to know you DO know the difference. Grammatically, I should have used an "or" instead of a /. My bad.

Perhaps someday we can elaborate on the odd occurrence of how they do overlap by name and why there is so much confusion. Or maybe not.

I've known the difference long before RG and you by extension, barged onto the scene, making a lot of noise and insinuating that you guys had all the answers and everyone else was clueless and dumb. Speaking of which, it's already June. What's the latest on the doc?