James Addison Reavis would be proud

[PotBelly Jim]

Hi Matthew, hope all is well with you,

Potbelly Jim,

Read the Yavapai County Recorders Book 1 for 1864-1865 carefully !!!

That's good advice...Someday I might get over to the recorder's office, but not real high on my to-do list...but I do get your point, and as always your grasp of the history and leg work you share here is appreciated. I hope you don't think me too lazy if I just take your word for it.

Howdy Jim,

I believe it was Pinal county, that did not allow Mexicans filing a claim at one time, but my memory is not that truthworthy where you could quote me on it. This could be why they clarified it on the mining law of 1872.

The Salazar Survey by Mr. Clay Worst, aslo supports that the Peralta's had no legal mine claims. Cristobal Peralta found no legal mine claims within his family, Spain, Mexico, or Arizona. While they may have worked several mines at one time, it seems they did so illegaly. Cristobal had the opportunity to file a legal claim, but felt he was too old to learn English.

Homar

Hey Homar, good to hear from you...hope all is well on your end...I don't know about Pinal Co., but it wouldn't surprise me at all...also, I'm not surprised that Cristobal Peralta found no legal claims either...as far as I understand it, and I may be wrong, there was only one family of Peraltas that had anything to do with mining in the Supes, and I'm pretty sure we know who they were. Only point I was trying to make, it wasn't our AZ man Miguel Peralta of the Valenciana mine, respected Merchant of Wickenburg and Phoenix, etc....so any involvement our local M.L. Peralta had (the extent of which is unclear, at least to me) with the Reavis land scam, or AZ mining, was TOTALLY unrelated to the Peralta family that DID have a lot of the adventures of Supes legend...

Thanks guys, best regards, Jim

 

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[Matthew Roberts]

Potbelly Jim,

I certainly don't expect you, or anyone else to, "take my word for it. What everyone should do is go to the Sharlott Hall Archives in Prescott, sit down with those Recorders books and go through them so you have an understanding of what actually happened. That takes a lot of time and work and it's not fun to have to deal with the Archives staff and try to read the handwriting of the recorders. That's why most people don't do it and rely on books written by people who themselves didn't take the proper time to find the documents, read them and interpret them correctly.

In your reply to coazon de oro you stated Miguel Peralta had nothing to do with the mining legends in the Superstitions and that you know who the Peralta's are who did have that connection.

What I would like to know is, how do you know Miguel Peralta didn't have any connection to the Peralta's of Superstition legend?

Also, how do you know which Peralta's did have that connection? Are both answers to the questions based on anything other than speculation ?

We of course know Frank Peralta was a Superstition mine hunter and indicated Cristobal Peralta and others were involved, even Gabriel Peralta who lived on the south half of Waltz's quarter section.

But how do you know that Miguel, and more to the point, Pablo Peralta and Antonio Peralta were never involved in Superstition mining?

Pablo and Antonio Peralta were the leaders of the Mexican expedition that was mining the "Valencia" mine in Black Canyon in 1865 when the Americans encountered them. How do you know those same men were never involved in the Superstitions?

Best to you always,

Matthew

 

[Lucky Baldwin]

Real Peraltas. I never knew they existed. Thank you Matthew Roberts, coazon de oro, PotBelly Jim and everyone else for helping to enlighten me. So there is a kernel of truth in the Peralta part of the legend. I'm still of the opinion that various treasure authors picked up the Peralta ball and ran with it, though.

 

[nobodie]

Didn't Miguel peralta commit suicide up in Prescott?

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Lucky Baldwin,

Yes, Peralta's did exist and they were engaged in mining in Arizona long before the Americans came onto the scene. That is an indisputable fact.

Were they involved with Jacob Waltz and the Lost Dutchman mine in the Superstition Mountains ? No one can prove they were and no one can prove they weren't.

Did various authors pick up the Peralta ball and run with it ? Of course they did, that's what authors do.

It is up to every individual to do their own homework, do their own research and form their own opinions and conclusions. I've done mine and I've drawn my own conclusions and beliefs. I don't expect anyone else to draw those exact same conclusions and I'm not trying to convince anyone or change anyone's mind. I share a lot of things here that I have researched and I keep a lot of things to myself.

I often have to smile at some of the posts here on TNet, people clearly have not done their homework and research yet they boldly state things as facts that are blatantly false.

No one knows the whole story, certainly not myself, but I have researched enough and been in the mountains enough to form a solid opinion of what happened.

All of the Dutchman authors have taken kernels of truth and expanded on them to sell their books, writing books is a money making business not a benevolent enterprise. The wise reader picks out those kernels of truth and researches them for himself.

Matthew

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Didn't Miguel peralta commit suicide up in Prescott?

nobodie,

No, Miguel Peralta died at Nogales, Arizona November 5, 1897. He died from a gunshot wound by his own hand.

Miguel L. Peralta has decendents who today are living in both Phoenix and Tucson Arizona.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

The Hayden Library on the campus of ASU (Arizona State University) in Tempe has the largest collection of biographical research on early Arizona pioneers.

Senator Carl Hayden began the collection and hundreds of researchers still contribute photographs, newspaper articles and family documents to add to the biographies.

Here is just one page from the Miguel L. Peralta biography concerning the Valencia mine and Peralta's role in the Reavis land fraud.

 

[nobodie]

Matthew, thank you.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Hello Matthew,

Somehow I get the feeling that I'm a below-average batter, it's the bottom of the 9th with 2 outs, and I go to the plate and it's Mariano Rivera on the mound...he throws me what looks like a fastball...I can either go down looking...or swing away, knowing that fastball is going to defy the laws of physics and cut down and in towards my ankles...what the heck, I'll swing!

Potbelly Jim,

I certainly don't expect you, or anyone else to, "take my word for it. What everyone should do is go to the Sharlott Hall Archives in Prescott, sit down with those Recorders books and go through them so you have an understanding of what actually happened. That takes a lot of time and work and it's not fun to have to deal with the Archives staff and try to read the handwriting of the recorders. That's why most people don't do it and rely on books written by people who themselves didn't take the proper time to find the documents, read them and interpret them correctly

While I agree that many authors have made many mistakes, there are a few who I think DID take the proper time, found the right documents, and interpreted them correctly. No work is perfect, but some of them are good references with few mistakes. Like you said, it is up to all of us to verify what we read or find, and I can forgive some mistakes made in the process of writing an entire book. I'm thankful we have authors like Dr. Glover, who in my opinion has no agenda other than trying to find the truth.

In your reply to coazon de oro you stated Miguel Peralta had nothing to do with the mining legends in the Superstitions and that you know who the Peralta's are who did have that connection.

What I would like to know is, how do you know Miguel Peralta didn't have any connection to the Peralta's of Superstition legend?

I don't KNOW...I BELIEVE he was totally unrelated to the Peralta's of Superstition legend...this is based on his being fairly well off until 1880, suffering embarrassing financial devastation that year, leaving his family destitute in Tucson, perhaps having heavy gambling debts, embezzling from an employer, losing that money gambling, then shooting himself...all this financial devastation he lived through over a 17 year period...during this time he probably sees articles about Waltz's mine and hears other things about the "LDM"...yet he does nothing to find his supposedly "family" mine and become rich again...does this sound like a guy from a family that has a history of mining in the Supes? I won't even go into his selling the bogus land grant for peanuts if he thought there was a rich family mine smack dab in the middle of it... Suit yourself, but that's enough proof for me that he has no idea there were/are Peralta mines in the Supes area. The only thing he probably shares with the Peralta's of the Supes legends are a name, and perhaps some distant family DNA.

Also, how do you know which Peralta's did have that connection? Are both answers to the questions based on anything other than speculation ?

I don't KNOW...I BELIEVE the story of Linda and Leslie Peralta, outlined in Dr. Glover's Pt 1, "The Golden Dream". If anything, it certainly fits better than believing Miguel Peralta was a descendant of the Superstition mining Peraltas. But, if any proof can be shown that he was, I have an open mind about it.

We of course know Frank Peralta was a Superstition mine hunter and indicated Cristobal Peralta and others were involved, even Gabriel Peralta who lived on the south half of Waltz's quarter section.

But how do you know that Miguel, and more to the point, Pedro Peralta and Antonio Peralta were never involved in Superstition mining?

First, I don't know the connection between a Pedro Peralta to Miguel Peralta. I never brought him up, so I'm assuming you have information that they are somehow related? The only family members of Miguel's I'm aware of are his father and mother (Antonio Pablo Peralta and Anna Maria), his older brothers (Sacramento and Julio) and his older sister (Jesuita).

The only thing I would say is if Antonio (Pablo) Peralta knew of a rich family mine in the Supes, why did he pass by it on his 49er trip to CA? And why did he pass by it again, when bringing his family out to CA in 1850? They took the Gila trail...you can see the Supes from parts of it...yet he didn't even stop in for a quick peek at the old family mine...just kept plodding on to San Jose...then in 1862 he leaves CA for La Paz, trying to scratch out a living there...from La Paz he goes to the Bradshaws and mines there until the indians run him out...even then he doesn't bother to try at the old family mine in the Supes...again, suit yourself, but it sounds to me that he has no idea there are mines in the Supes...

Pedro and Antonio Peralta were the leaders of the Mexican expedition that was mining the "Valencia" mine in Black Canyon in 1865 when the Americans encountered them. How do you know those same men were never involved in the Superstitions?

Matthew

I don't KNOW...but again, if they knew of a rich mine or mines there, why bother with the Valenciana? Seems to me the indians were just as hostile in Black Canyon as they were in the Supes, so that can't be what's keeping them away...maybe they just didn't know there were Peralta mines there?

Perhaps I'm ignorant of key information connecting Miguel's Peralta family with the Peralta's of the Supes. Nothing new there ...all I'm saying is there's a lot to indicate his Peralta family was ignorant of any mines in the Supes...while Linda Peralta's family seems to be the one with all the family stories about it....as far as I know, the two families aren't closely related, if they are at all...now if I'm all wet, I have an open mind about this stuff, and I'm not one of those guys who always has to be right...so anything you could correct me on, would be well received.

Best regards, Jim

 

[PotBelly Jim]

... I'm still of the opinion that various treasure authors picked up the Peralta ball and ran with it, though.

You are........right. If it interests you, look for any story about a Peralta mine in the Supes that pre-dates 1930 publication. If you find the one in 1930, you've found the start of it all...now I'm not saying there was no Peralta mines in the Supes...a lot of us think there are...but the stories by Barry Storm, John D. Mitchell, Oren Arnold, etc. etc. seem to all have their genesis in 1930...Best regards, Jim

 

[deducer]

You are........right. If it interests you, look for any story about a Peralta mine in the Supes that pre-dates 1930 publication. If you find the one in 1930, you've found the start of it all...now I'm not saying there was no Peralta mines in the Supes...a lot of us think there are...but the stories by Barry Storm, John D. Mitchell, Oren Arnold, etc. etc. seem to all have their genesis in 1930...Best regards, Jim

The problem is that the Peraltas that we are interested in, circa 1840-1860's, originated from Mexico, from Arizpe, specifically. So if you wanted more information on the Peraltas we're interested in, you'd have to go there, and to the best of my knowledge, only one person has actually gone there to try and do some research in general, and it ended up being a whole lot of unsubstantiated research.

The other issue is that the name "Peralta" is commonplace to Mexico as "Smith" or "Johnson" is to America, or so I've read. There's quite a bit to sort through.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Didn't Miguel peralta commit suicide up in Prescott?

Hi Nobodie,

Here's the article from the Arizola Oasis about Miguel's suicide:
View attachment 1599605
Best regards, Jim

 

[PotBelly Jim]

The problem is that the Peraltas that we are interested in, circa 1840-1860's, originated from Mexico, from Arizpe, specifically. So if you wanted more information on the Peraltas we're interested in, you'd have to go there, and to the best of my knowledge, only one person has actually gone there to try and do some research in general, and it ended up being a whole lot of unsubstantiated research.

The other issue is that the name "Peralta" is commonplace to Mexico as "Smith" or "Johnson" is to America, or so I've read. There's quite a bit to sort through.

For what it's worth, I think Arizpe is a prime candidate, as well as Cumpas. Miguel's branch of the family was from Ures. All pretty close, as it were.

 

[sdcfia]

Hello Matthew,

Somehow I get the feeling that I'm a below-average batter, it's the bottom of the 9th with 2 outs, and I go to the plate and it's Mariano Rivera on the mound...he throws me what looks like a fastball...I can either go down looking...or swing away, knowing that fastball is going to defy the laws of physics and cut down and in towards my ankles...what the heck, I'll swing! ....

Best regards, Jim

Dude, don't count yourself out.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

One of the best days of my life....and the wife is a die-hard NY fan

View attachment 1599658

 

[Matthew Roberts]

For what it's worth, I think Arizpe is a prime candidate, as well as Cumpas. Miguel's branch of the family was from Ures. All pretty close, as it were.

I have known Linda Peralta for over 20 years, have met with her, sat and talked with her, have exchanged dozens of letters with her, spoken several times on the phone with her. I have many photographs she has given me concerning her heritage and the area in Mexico her family originated. Linda and I have had conversations about her family before and after they arrived in California.

When you talk about Linda's family having no connection to the Miguel Peralta family you are wrong. Linda is of course related to the Peralta's but she is even more closely related to the Arvizu family. She is directly related to Adolpho Arvizu who was the true owner/locator of the mine in 1865 known as the "Valencia." Adolpho Arvizu and Miguel Peralta's father were related by marriage. That is a fact. So even though Linda does not have a direct bloodline to Miguel Peralta, her family had a direct history and relationship with the Mexicans who were mining at the "Valencia" and other places in Central Arizona in the 1840-1865 time period.

Best,

Matthew

 

[markmar]

I believe the Mexicans ( Peralta and other relatives ) were working in secret the richest mines in the Superstitions untill Waltz met them and killed them by mistake (?) . That was the last time Mexicans ( as group ) worked the mines in the Superstitions , with an exception of Gonzales Peralta who appeared at the scene in 1876 for a short time and in 1930 for the last time .

 

[Matthew Roberts]

I believe the Mexicans ( Peralta and other relatives ) were working in secret the richest mines in the Superstitions untill Waltz met them and killed them by mistake (?) . That was the last time Mexicans ( as group ) worked the mines in the Superstitions , with an exception of Gonzales Peralta who appeared at the scene in 1876 for a short time and in 1930 for the last time .

markmar,

You may very well be correct. The real time period in question is from 1840 - 1869. The very same Mexican's who were mining at the Valencia in 1865 may well have been mining in the Superstitions any time 1840 - 1864.

There is no evidence to say they were but then again there is no evidence to say they weren't.

The Superstition mine(s) may have been abandoned by the Mexicans for several reasons. Apache raids and hostility is the biggest reason. Water and lack of it and discoveries in other areas.

By 1870 the Americans were everywhere in Arizona where only a few short years before the Mexicans had free rein to roam and mine wherever they pleased. Miguel Peralta would not have gone back to the Superstition mine(s) when he fell on hard times because by that time the Superstitions were overrun by prospectors and cattlemen.

Best,

Matthew

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I have known Linda Peralta for over 20 years, have met with her, sat and talked with her, have exchanged dozens of letters with her, spoken several times on the phone with her. I have many photographs she has given me concerning her heritage and the area in Mexico her family originated. Linda and I have had conversations about her family before and after they arrived in California.

When you talk about Linda's family having no connection to the Miguel Peralta family you are wrong. Linda is of course related to the Peralta's but she is even more closely related to the Arvizu family. She is directly related to Adolpho Arvizu who was the true owner/locator of the mine in 1865 known as the "Valencia." Adolpho Arvizu and Miguel Peralta's father were related by marriage. That is a fact. So even though Linda does not have a direct bloodline to Miguel Peralta, her family had a direct history and relationship with the Mexicans who were mining at the "Valencia" and other places in Central Arizona in the 1840-1865 time period.

Best,

Matthew

Hmmmm....perhaps I was very wrong to assume there was no connection between Miguel and the Peraltas of Supes legend...Miguel also married Dolores Arvizu, so there's that too...thank you for clearing that up...Best Regards, Jim

 

[ink]

Absolutely amazing I love this type of posting. The Az. mts. have a lot of secrets. oh GOD I hope my comment does not warrant another 30 day time out