Jacob Waltz the Dutchman

[cactusjumper]

Mr. Roberts,

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my question. It does appear many things about the Dutchman are not as settled as one might think.

Hello Hal,

Good post. Have to say Walzer is the name i believe is correct for a lot of reasons. France, who would have thought.

Have a good day,

Starman

"Randy,

Quantum Physics, a bit.

Late generally used page 49 of a text and lines 1-49 to hide directionals. If the map is what I believe it is it begins at the Salt River close to Barranca Grande. It will end at Latitude N33 33.370
Longtitude W111 20.581
elevation: 3108.

Roy,

If you have found the truth regarding Atlantis then you should have no problem putting together how Jacob made it from South Africa to America. Posting a manifest would only generate scorn anyway. I will share this with you. The two young people who visited Jacob before he died were his children. Their names were Ada and Gerwig Waltzer.

Joe,

I cannot answer why others post. I am tasked to see if the library of Oz should be made public or destroyed. Late, Eldorado, Dog and Klondike did not have it in them to end this. I do.


We have a saying in our people that once the souls of those lost in the Superstitions have been returned to us the Superstitions will return to darkness. I believe it has.

Only a novice could stop this.


Martin Waltzer
Starman"
_______________________________________

So......is it Waltzer or Walzer?

Now Kraig may consider this a "personal attack", but I prefer to think of it as just a simple question about your posts.

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[starman 1]

Hello Mr. Roberts,

Sorry your thread has been hijacked by this sort of stuff. It is what it is. Actually I was just curious as to your opinion on Herman`s communication.

Mr. Ribaudo,

Hopefully you can just let folks have a normal conversation without you jumping in with your agenda. Whatever that maybe. Did you ever consider the possibilty there is a difference between starman and starman 1. And I do not believe we have an obligation to do all your homework for you. Simply figure it out.

We are discussing Herman`s communications. Do you have an opinion on that or not?


Starman

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Starman,

Sometimes it is worth tearing down ones own ideas and starting again from the beginning.
I would not rule out the Walzer connection just yet.
There is just too much uncertainty to make definitive declarations either way.
I have ask this question before, but no one responded. Perhaps I will have better luck this time around.
Can anyone tell us anything about the "French" mine?
It seems that a few of the main characters in our story were looking for it.
What makes things interesting is the fact that Jacob Walzer arrived from France...

View attachment 856798

Hal,

I believe the story of the Lost French or Frenchmen mine is written up in both John Mitchell and J. Frank Dobie's southwestern lost mines and treasure books. I've read at least three different versions of the "French mine" so it depends on which author you have in your hand at the time.

The man who wrote the article you refer to that appeared in the Phoenix Gazette was most probably writing from hearsay and rumors around town and not from a first person interview with any of the people mentioned in the article. You can tell that by his getting almost every name mispelled and in the case of Mrs. WH Thomas, botched it completely.

This article I believe preceeded Bicknell's article about Waltz's mine, so at that time, the Lost Dutchman Mine had not been named yet so could not be refered to as such. I believe it was Jim Bark about 1910 who actually coined the phrase Lost Dutchman Mine and before that it was refered to as any number of mines and confused with just about every other lost mine story. The Gazette article's author probably pulled the French mine out of his hat for lack of knowing which mine it was the people had actually gone looking for.

We know for a fact the people in the Gazette story, the Petrick's (Petrasch's), Gilmore and "Julia" Thomas all went looking for Waltz's mine which later was named the Lost Dutchman Mine.

I had always held the Walzer who came from LaHarve France on the "Lyon" as being a good candidate for the Dutchman. There are some problems with that man that don't match up with the Waltz of Phoenix. That doesn't mean he might not be the right man, just means the information on the Lyon was not acurate, intentionally or unintentionally. The jury is still out on that issue. Lot's of Germans immigrated from Germany through LaHarve France. Many immigrant ships leaving Bremen Germany made stops at LaHarve to pick up more passengers and cargo going to America.

Matthew

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Hello Mr. Roberts,

Sorry your thread has been hijacked by this sort of stuff. It is what it is. Actually I was just curious as to your opinion on Herman`s communication.

Mr. Ribaudo,

Hopefully you can just let folks have a normal conversation without you jumping in with your agenda. Whatever that maybe. Did you ever consider the possibilty there is a difference between starman and starman 1. And I do not believe we have an obligation to do all your homework for you. Simply figure it out.

We are discussing Herman`s communications. Do you have an opinion on that or not?


Starman

Starman,

If I can lay my hands on it I'll try and scan Hermann's letter and post it for all to see. I was going off memory but remembered Hermann used a different name than W-a-l-t-z, either it was Walzer or Waltzer I'm not 100% certain, it is written in the letter. Both the Pioneer Cemetery Association in Phoenix and Greg Davis also has a copy of the letter in the SMHS Museum archives. Once again, Hermann was adamant the name was not, W-a-l-t-z.

And yes it's a shame interested members cannot carry on a thread without it being hijacked and both the message and member attacked. If I don't agree with someone or think they are out in left field with what they are saying I have the options to say I don't agree with you and go on my way, ignore the thread and just don't look in, or start a thread of my own on a subject I do believe in and want to talk about. If someone is floating a thread that is too far out for dutch hunters it will die a natural death when no one responds to it. Lurking around and waiting for someone to post so you can attack the poster and divert the topic is creepy and only makes the attacker look childish and immature. And so what if only two or three people want to discuss the thread in peace without being harrassed and attacked ? I've spoken with people who believe space aliens have worked the Lost Dutchman and have seen dinosaurs in the mountains. I don't believe them but have never felt the need to attack them and can remain friendly with them.

Matthew

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

sorry.

 

[starman 1]

Hello Mr. Roberts,

Thanks for taking the time to post that information. Actually from a historical perspective I find that sort of thing fascinating.

On the other issue I really do believe truth can be found much more prevelant in a quiet conversation without trying to flame folks.

People need to take all of this with a degree of humour and good will because the subject is very difficult to nail down. For example who knows maybe the story of lizard men in Rogers Canyon is the truth. Guess everyone and everything should have their own set of trails and tails in the Superstitions.

Just think wouldn`t it be a hoot if the ore that was tested here at the University came from a played out drift mine in Pistol Canyon. A covered mine that pinched out at depth because of a fault zone and is such a geological mess that any testing is virtually impossible. Now that would be funny.

May the stars keep you safe.

Starman

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Kraig,

It has gone on for a number of years now, much like other fictional tales that we know of.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

You are borderline close to violating our rules, your implying starman is lying.

I highly recommend it stop now.....



Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

 

[Hal Croves]

Hello Starman,

You raise an excellent question. It's too bad your question was met with yet another personal attack.

Hermann Petrasch did indeed write a personal letter(s) in which he positively stated the name was , Jacob Waltzer. In my files I have a copy of one of those letters, the one to Mulford Windsor I do not have but do have the one written in about 1944 to the Pioneer Cemetery Association in Phoenix. Petrasch wrote to the Pioneer Cemetery people in a reply to them to identify the proper gravesite of Jacob Waltzer. For those who are not aware, Jacob Waltzer-Waltz is buried in the Petrasch family plot in that cemetery one grave east of the grave of Hermann's brother, George Petrasch. In 1994 the grave of Waltzer-Waltz was verified by ground penetration radar at the exact spot Hermann said it was.

The entire Petrasch family, Hermann, his father Gottfreid, his mother, his sister, his brothers George and Rhinehart, were acquainted with the Dutchman. The family lived in Phoenix from the mid 1880's until around 1888 when young George Petrasch died of Diptheria in Phoenix and was buried in the Pioneer cemetery. After young George's death the Petrasch family moved away and split up, the mother and daughter to Kansas and Hermann and Gotfried moved on to Montana and Washington state. It is not certain that Rhinehart ever left Phoenix with his family and may well have remained behind. Hermann was absolutely positive about Waltzer's name and never wavered from his spelling of the name. Given the family's history with Jacob Waltzer-Waltz, his letters and statements cannot just be dismissed out of hand.

The Waltz-Waltzer controversy has raged for decades and still is a hot topic even today. While I believe Waltzer-Waltz signed his name W-a-l-t-z, I have never been certain he didn't change his last name at some point in time.

Matthew

Matthew Roberts,
In my copy (revised 1964) of Barnard/Higgins "book" the reproduced letters written by Petrasch and Alkire clearly state that the spelling was W A L Z E R, yet you seem convinced that a letter "t" is used. Could you help shed some light based on your copy... did Barnard and Higgins intentionally misrepresent this?
Thank you!

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal,

The first edition, by Charles Frederick Higham, spells Waltz's name as "Walzer", just as you have said. You can tell if you have a real first edition by the green tape on the binding.

Considering the massive evidence for the correct spelling of Waltz's name, including his own signatures, I would vote for "Waltz". On the other hand, can't see how chasing down Walzer, or even Waltzer, can hurt. Practically everyone in those days had problems with spelling and especially so with names. Don't believe they did it intentionally.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew Roberts,
In my copy (revised 1964) of Barnard/Higgins "book" the reproduced letters written by Petrasch and Alkire clearly state that the spelling was W A L Z E R, yet you seem convinced that a letter "t" is used. Could you help shed some light based on your copy... did Barnard and Higgins intentionally misrepresent this?
Thank you!

Hal,

I was going off memory as most of my files are now with the Superstition Mountain Historical Society Archives under the care of the President, Greg Davis. My copy of Hermann's letter in in Tempe with Greg. Here is the reply I gave to Starman when I thought about it some more and realized it was more probably Walzer.

Starman,

If I can lay my hands on it I'll try and scan Hermann's letter and post it for all to see. I was going off memory but remembered Hermann used a different name than W-a-l-t-z, either it was Walzer or Waltzer I'm not 100% certain, it is written in the letter. Both the Pioneer Cemetery Association in Phoenix and Greg Davis also has a copy of the letter in the SMHS Museum archives. Once again, Hermann was adamant the name was not, W-a-l-t-z.

 

[Not Peralta]

hal croves,and Mathew Roberts, I like reading your postings, hope you can have more with out some one coming on and disrupting the conversations, keep up the good work. np

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

I was going off memory as most of my files are now with the Superstition Mountain Historical Society Archives under the care of the President, Greg Davis. My copy of Hermann's letter in in Tempe with Greg. Here is the reply I gave to Starman when I thought about it some more and realized it was more probably Walzer.

Starman,

If I can lay my hands on it I'll try and scan Hermann's letter and post it for all to see. I was going off memory but remembered Hermann used a different name than W-a-l-t-z, either it was Walzer or Waltzer I'm not 100% certain, it is written in the letter. Both the Pioneer Cemetery Association in Phoenix and Greg Davis also has a copy of the letter in the SMHS Museum archives. Once again, Hermann was adamant the name was not, W-a-l-t-z.

Matthew Roberts,
I missed that.
Just to be clear, had you told us that it was written with a "t" in your copy I think most of us would have believed you copy unseen. Your posts carry quite a bit of weight and I catch myself waiting for the next one which is why I needed to ask that question.

Going back to Cubfan64's last post... I have not been able to rule out the Jacob Walzer story as told by Higham... the one who arrived in NYC in 61' and is in someway connected to C. Hauselt. The telling of that story was full of errors however we now have the correct names and dates and they seem to confirm Higham's story. What is missing is the Walzer-Hauselt connection... the one the Steve Creager was working on. Unfortunately, I do not know Steve but I think that he may have an important piece of the puzzle. If he can demonstrate any connection by marriage, perhaps we can take his research further now that we know who is who in that story. There is something there that I feel merits a closer look.

Is Steve still around?

 

[Cubfan64]

Matthew Roberts,
I missed that.
Just to be clear, had you told us that it was written with a "t" in your copy I think most of us would have believed you copy unseen. Your posts carry quite a bit of weight and I catch myself waiting for the next one which is why I needed to ask that question.

Going back to Cubfan64's last post... I have not been able to rule out the Jacob Walzer story as told by Higgins... the one who arrived in NYC in 61' and is in someway connected to C. Hauselt. The telling of that story was full of errors however we now have the correct names and dates and they seem to confirm Higgins story. What is missing is the Walzer-Hauselt connection... the one the Steve Creager was working on. Unfortunately, I do not know Steve but I think that he may have an important piece of the puzzle. If he can demonstrate any connection by marriage, perhaps we can take his research further now that we know who is who in that story. There is something there that I feel merits a closer look.

Is Steve still around?

Steve passed away unfortunately at age 51 a number of years ago now (Kraig or Joe can tell you exactly when). I became actively interested in the LDM less than a year after Steve died, so I was never fortunate enough to meet him, though I sure wish I had.

I don't know what happened to his notes and research. Although bits and pieces were shared with numerous people over the years, I don't know if anyone has his "main notes." I tried unsuccessfully to contact his former family this past year, but have had no response. I know that quite often, the families of "treasure hunters" do not want to be bothered after their family member passes away - I think treasure hunting (whether boots on the ground, or in depth research - or in Steve's case both) can become a real obsession with folks, and sometimes the spouse, parents and children are left with a bad feeling about the whole thing. I don't know if that's the case here or not, but out of respect I haven't made any further attempts to get in touch with them.

For all I know, all of his notes and research was thrown out at some point after he passed away.

Paul

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal,

The first edition, by Charles Frederick Higham, spells Waltz's name as "Walzer", just as you have said. You can tell if you have a real first edition by the green tape on the binding.

Considering the massive evidence for the correct spelling of Waltz's name, including his own signatures, I would vote for "Waltz". On the other hand, can't see how chasing down Walzer, or even Waltzer, can hurt. Practically everyone in those days had problems with spelling and especially so with names. Don't believe they did it intentionally.

Take care,

Joe

cactusjumper,
Hope that you are well. After reading and rereading the book you so patiently lent me, I still can not dismiss the Walzer name. Something is wrong with the entire Dutchman's story and I feel that it may be so obvious that we are all blind to it. Higham seems credible when he writes about discovering Walzer's cousins name (Hauslet)... the one that he (Higham) will never reveal. Is it given in your first edition or do you think that Barnard broke Higham's trust and published it later on his own? I just want to be able to eliminate the Jacob Walzer who arrived in NYC in 61' as a possibility and I can not.

On a side note... are you interested in (have you researched) D. Duppa's connection to all this?

 

[Hal Croves]

Steve passed away unfortunately at age 51 a number of years ago now (Kraig or Joe can tell you exactly when). I became actively interested in the LDM less than a year after Steve died, so I was never fortunate enough to meet him, though I sure wish I had.

I don't know what happened to his notes and research. Although bits and pieces were shared with numerous people over the years, I don't know if anyone has his "main notes." I tried unsuccessfully to contact his former family this past year, but have had no response. I know that quite often, the families of "treasure hunters" do not want to be bothered after their family member passes away - I think treasure hunting (whether boots on the ground, or in depth research - or in Steve's case both) can become a real obsession with folks, and sometimes the spouse, parents and children are left with a bad feeling about the whole thing. I don't know if that's the case here or not, but out of respect I haven't made any further attempts to get in touch with them.

For all I know, all of his notes and research was thrown out at some point after he passed away.

Paul

Cubfan64,
Another loss. This is why I try to regurgitate anything important I uncover here on the TN. I honestly feel that one day soon the whole thing will just come together with the right collection of posts. Steve must have shared his work with someone.
Also, I have contacted several Hauselt families here on the east coast. One thing they have in common is a disconnect to their own family history. Somewhere along the lines things got fuzzy which I guess is what happens with time.
Hope your keeping warm up there!

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Hal,

Steve Creager passed away in January 2006 from lung cancer, mesotheleoma. Steve's home was Jefferson City, Missouri but he was from Stillwater, Oklahoma. Steve was a good friend for many years. We worked on many things together, spent many enjoyable (and some not so enjoyable) days in the mountains together. Steve has written several excellent articles concerning the mountains and the LDM. He was working on several more things when he became too sick to carry on. He is much missed to say the least.

Steve had a large collection of research material and things he picked up over the years. He had two partners and we loaned Steve some things he was interested in for things he was working on. After Steve passed away, certain unscrupulous and underhanded members of the dutchman community tried to make contact with Steve's family and get all of Steve's material. They were successful in obtaining some things but not his entire collection as I understand it.

I have many things of Steve's he copied me on as he worked on different projects. I have turned most all of what I have over to the Superstition Mountain Historical Society archives as it was always Steve's wish to have his articles (and book) published. Greg Davis, the SMHS president has published one or two of Steve's articles in the annual SMHS Journal and plans to publish another one of Steve's work in an upcoming issue.

These underhanded members of the dutchman society succeeded in getting some of the personal items That Steve's partners had loaned Steve and were in his collection when he died. These were private, confidential and some very valuable items, things Steve had been given permission to use in his work. One item was a tape recording of Brownie Holmes previously unknown to the dutch community. This tape since has been passed around to several equally underhanded individuals. Requests to return the tape to it's rightful owner have been laughed at. And these are among the most "respected" (I use that term with tounge in cheek) members of the current dutch community.

Steve was a great person, became a fine hiker and outdoorsman who spent many days and nights in the wildest parts of the Supperstition Mountains. He had a deep love for adventure and the mountains and tasted a healthy serving of both I am proud to say. I miss him.

Matthew

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Steven Douglas Creager 1957 - 2006


Hal,

I will see if I can make contact with Steve's son and see if theres anything in whats left of Steve's files concerning the Hauselt-Waltz-Walzer research.

Matthew

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

he sure looks familiar matthew...
I hope he is looking down an laughing at us all.

 

[Cubfan64]

he sure looks familiar matthew...
I hope he is looking down an laughing at us all.

I suspect there are ALOT of folks up there looking down and laughing at us - as well as a bunch of them just sadly shaking their heads.

 

[sgtfda]

Then the Dutchman is having a big laugh!