Jacob Waltz the Dutchman

[sgtfda]

I think it would be impossible to write a book on the subject that was 100%.

 

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[cactusjumper]

Desertdog,

So the whole "Bible" is false? Gassler, Ruth, all of it? I don't know Mrs. Corbin, but I find it hard to believe that an author would write an entire book based on ALL lies. She had to do SOME research into her sources, correct?

And I'm not trying to get involved in the "past arguments", I'm just trying to be clear about the "Bible" for my own personal information. If it's all false, then there's no use reading it anymore.

Thanks for your time,
Waylon

Waylon,

Mrs. Corbin was an honest and very intelligent woman. Not all of her information for "The Bible....." came from one source. While I never met her, I had great respect for the woman. It was after her passing that Bob and I became good friends.

I don't believe you have offended anyone. If you can make it, the Rendezvous is a good place to meet some really interesting folks. Don't take anyone's word for the character or honesty of anyone, including mine. If you stick around long enough, you will come to your own conclusions.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

I am new to the forum, but I have been a frequent visitor. That said, I am aware of the topic that Joe has been referring to and has tactfully broached. While burying the hatchet is a wise and healthy choice in many situations, some hatchets are best left in the open as lessons for many of us to look back on or refer to. While I have only met Joe once, briefly, he and I have a few friends in common. I believe he has no agenda other than truthfulness in a common topic among us... the LDM. I appreciate his input and knowledge, and we are all fortunate to have him "call out" the less than honest, and steer the newer LDM seekers in a positive direction. The subject in question here has based "friendships" in falsehood and deception. While I cannot speak for Joe, I assume his bottom line point is to be carefull with whos word you put stock in. Anyone who could deceive an experienced researcher and author has deceived all of us who have read the "Bible". That places him squarely on the other end of the integrity spectrum from a man like Mr. Corbin, whos handshake is his word.

Desertdog,

Many thanks for the kind words. While I am somewhat biased, I believe you have a good handle on the situation.

One other thing about Bob Corbin, he's the kind of man who requires no handshake at all. His word is better than some men's handshake. Once he trusts someone's word, that trust is not broken easily. Once broken......

Take care,

Joe

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Jacob Waltz the Dutchman

One of the questions that Sims Ely answers in his book, The Lost Dutchman, is the year Waltz came to America. Ely states it was 1848 and he arrived with his father, mother and brother.

On Waltz's application for citizenship filed in Natchez, Mississippi in November 1948, he states he arrived in America at the age of 29 and in the year 1839.

Some have speculated Waltz actually arrived much later than the 1839 date he put on his application. To apply for citizenship one had to have been in the country for between 5-10 years. Some have said Waltz said he arrived in 1839 to be able to file and receive his citizenship. Did Sims Ely know something no one else knew and now the record Ely used is gone and not available any longer ?

We know for a fact Waltz was in Natchez, Mississippi in November 1948. No one knows for sure where he was prior to that date, lots of speculation but no way to tie him to any place in time (yet). It is possible Waltz arrived in New Orleans in 1848 as Ely wrote and was in Natchez, just a short trip up the Mississippi where he applied for his citizenship. Steve Creager speculated Waltz may have been on the run from Germany and becoming a citizen fast may have been a top priority for him. Creager also learned a LOT of Germans immigrating to America could not pay their passage so they signed on as Redemptioners and worked off their passage after arriving in America. Three of the most common places to work off their debt was Missouri, Texas and Mississippi. This due to the heavy need for farm and agricultural workers and in Texas the need to populate the state to guard against the threat of Mexico trying to retake the territory.

Ely seemed very sure of his information, his information was backed up when Ancestry .com came on line. Did Sims Ely have documents from Waltz or possibly Julia that have been lost to time or are sitting in someone's file cabinet ?

Matthew

 

[cactusjumper]

Jacob Waltz the Dutchman

One of the questions that Sims Ely answers in his book, The Lost Dutchman, is the year Waltz came to America. Ely states it was 1848 and he arrived with his father, mother and brother.

On Waltz's application for citizenship filed in Natchez, Mississippi in November 1948, he states he arrived in America at the age of 29 and in the year 1839.

Some have speculated Waltz actually arrived much later than the 1839 date he put on his application. To apply for citizenship one had to have been in the country for between 5-10 years. Some have said Waltz said he arrived in 1839 to be able to file and receive his citizenship. Did Sims Ely know something no one else knew and now the record Ely used is gone and not available any longer ?

We know for a fact Waltz was in Natchez, Mississippi in November 1948. No one knows for sure where he was prior to that date, lots of speculation but no way to tie him to any place in time (yet). It is possible Waltz arrived in New Orleans in 1848 as Ely wrote and was in Natchez, just a short trip up the Mississippi where he applied for his citizenship. Steve Creager speculated Waltz may have been on the run from Germany and becoming a citizen fast may have been a top priority for him. Creager also learned a LOT of Germans immigrating to America could not pay their passage so they signed on as Redemptioners and worked off their passage after arriving in America. Three of the most common places to work off their debt was Missouri, Texas and Mississippi. This due to the heavy need for farm and agricultural workers and in Texas the need to populate the state to guard against the threat of Mexico trying to retake the territory.

Ely seemed very sure of his information, his information was backed up when Ancestry .com came on line. Did Sims Ely have documents from Waltz or possibly Julia that have been lost to time or are sitting in someone's file cabinet ?

Matthew

Kraig,

Perhaps the answer will be in Dr. Glover's new book.......coming out this Fall.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

sorry, I suspect where and when Jacob arrived in the united states might have some relevance....
if he was raised in a mining town in Germany, or some Germanic state, then yes...this is relevant.
many people fled Europe in this period{http://www.age-of-the-sage.org/history/1848/german_revolution.html}

perhaps fraud was used in gaining us citizenship, though why? no one cared back when, unless one was running for public office...dang near everyone was from somewhere else.

 

[Cubfan64]

I hope I'm not going too far off topic with this comment/question as it's not directly related to Sims Ely, however I wanted to see if there were any thoughts regarding Charles Frederick (John Lindley) Higham's pamphlet from the 1946-1954 timeframe.

I don't have it in front of me right now, and don't recall all the specifics, but he makes reference to a number of things about Jacob Waltz prior to his arrival in AZ that have always struck me. He claims Waltz spent mining time in New Zealand prior to coming to the US where he met George and Brian (Darrel) Duppa (It's certainly a documented fact that the 2 Duppa's spent time in New Zealand), and also mentions names such as Charles Hauselt who he claims Waltz worked for and dates associated with Waltz's arrival in America.

Sadly he gives no specific documented evidence sources for his claims (not terribly surprising for that time period), but I have a difficult time understanding how he could just pull a name of a specific individual like Hauselt out of a hat unless he had SOME source for that information.

I know Higham does not have a great reputation for factual information, but we also know there are discrepencies in dates and other things in Ely's book as well that don't make much sense.

I know Hal Croves tried to follow up on the New Zealand and Hauselt angle awhile back, and I don't think he came up with anything conclusive. I also dig some digging and came up empty as well - although had a great time investigating the Hauselt family and Duppa/New Zealand connection as well.

I guess the gist of my interest is that I feel Higham MUST HAVE had some source for the Hauselt name, and some reason to believe the dates and information he gave. Any idea where some of that may have come from? Higham was around in the early 1900's, so not that far removed from Waltz's death - did he have sources that may have had documented evidence that either no longer exists, or as Kraig suggested, resides in someones files or an old desk somewhere?

Any thoughts?

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Cubfan,

Thats an interesting angle and if Waltz was ever in New Zealand with the Duppa's he may have arrived in America from that country. The immigration records from NZ from the mid 1800's are very poor to say the least.

I think it may have been Barney Barnard who first said Waltz worked for Charles Hauselt and that may be where Higham came up with it. Both men used the story. Where they got that story is interesting and a mystery.

The problem with the Waltz working for Hauslet angle comes in the fact Hauselt didn't arrive in America until 1849. We know Waltz was at least in the country for a year before that, and most probably 9 years before that. In 1848 Waltz filed his application for citizenship at Natchez Mississippi. On that ap he stated he had arrived in America 9 years earlier in 1839. However, Barnard and Higham may have been on the right track but on the wrong train.

The Charles Hauselt who had the merchant business in New York ( a hides and leather factory ) had a brother who worked with him named Edward Hauselt. Edward had a son named Charles Hauselt, ( the nephew of Charles Hauselt the businessman ). Hauselt also had a business partner named William Schmittheimer. Steve Creager was following up on Higham and Barnards Waltz - Hauselt connection, and found that either the nephew (Charles Hauselt,) or the partner, (Schmittheimer) or possibly both, were married to Waltz ladies. No connection was ever made as Steve never finished that research but this may have been where Barnard and Higham got the idea of the Waltz being related and worked for Hauselt. Charles Hauselt died about 1886 and both his nephew and Schmittheimer were executors of his estate. I never knew for certain if this had any relevance to our Jacob Waltz or if it was just a coincidence involving the Waltz name.

Since Jacob Waltz's whereabouts are unknown between the years 1839 and 1848, and again from 1849 through 1860, he could have been almost anywhere, he even may have left the country and returned again.

Matthew

 

[cactusjumper]

Cubfan,

Thats an interesting angle and if Waltz was ever in New Zealand with the Duppa's he may have arrived in America from that country. The immigration records from NZ from the mid 1800's are very poor to say the least.

I think it may have been Barney Barnard who first said Waltz worked for Charles Hauselt and that may be where Higham came up with it. Both men used the story. Where they got that story is interesting and a mystery.

The problem with the Waltz working for Hauslet angle comes in the fact Hauselt didn't arrive in America until 1849. We know Waltz was at least in the country for a year before that, and most probably 9 years before that. In 1848 Waltz filed his application for citizenship at Natchez Mississippi. On that ap he stated he had arrived in America 9 years earlier in 1839. However, Barnard and Higham may have been on the right track but on the wrong train.

The Charles Hauselt who had the merchant business in New York ( a hides and leather factory ) had a brother who worked with him named Edward Hauselt. Edward had a son named Charles Hauselt, ( the nephew of Charles Hauselt the businessman ). Hauselt also had a business partner named William Schmittheimer. Steve Creager was following up on Higham and Barnards Waltz - Hauselt connection, and found that either the nephew (Charles Hauselt,) or the partner, (Schmittheimer) or possibly both, were married to Waltz ladies. No connection was ever made as Steve never finished that research but this may have been where Barnard and Higham got the idea of the Waltz being related and worked for Hauselt. Charles Hauselt died about 1886 and both his nephew and Schmittheimer were executors of his estate. I never knew for certain if this had any relevance to our Jacob Waltz or if it was just a coincidence involving the Waltz name.

Since Jacob Waltz's whereabouts are unknown between the years 1839 and 1848, and again from 1849 through 1860, he could have been almost anywhere, he even may have left the country and returned again.

Matthew

Paul and Kraig,

Two interesting and thought provoking posts. It would be a great learning experiance to research your questions. Very nice.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[H-2 CHARLIE]

I cant see what this would prove ?

 

[sgtfda]

H-2 most work backwards on the history of Jacob. That path is tainted. Working forward from the past is a different approach.

 

[starman 1]

The Dutchman

Hello Mr. Roberts,


I was wondering if you would comment on a letter dated April 16, 1953 that purports to be from Herman Petrasch to the state librarian Mr. Wendsor, that is pretty clear in the position that Jacob`s last name was Waltzer. I am sure you know the one. If the letter is fabricated then it really does not matter.

If it is legitimate then it presents a set of possibilites that touches on the Ely account. That is if Herman is correct then why has the effort been made to steer folks to the Waltz name and it may suggest that Ely has been working on a fundamental level with all of this that few really suspect.

A level that perhaps touches on his time in Boulder City and who knows all the way to the area that would become Davis Dam.

Maybe we don`t have a clue who the Dutchman really was.


Starman

 

[cactusjumper]

Hello Mr. Roberts,


I was wondering if you would comment on a letter dated April 16, 1953 that purports to be from Herman Petrasch to the state librarian Mr. Wendsor, that is pretty clear in the position that Jacob`s last name was Waltzer. I am sure you know the one. If the letter is fabricated then it really does not matter.

If it is legitimate then it presents a set of possibilites that touches on the Ely account. That is if Herman is correct then why has the effort been made to steer folks to the Waltz name and it may suggest that Ely has been working on a fundamental level with all of this that few really suspect.

A level that perhaps touches on his time in Boulder City and who knows all the way to the area that would become Davis Dam.

Maybe we don`t have a clue who the Dutchman really was.


Starman

Ben,

Not sure who you mean by "we", but most of the people who post on this site, have a pretty good idea of who Jacob Waltz was. Now it's true that NP suspects he may have been the "Dutchman" who died before our Jacob ever arrived in Phoenix, but not many folks are buying that theory.

I hope you have not abandoned "OZ" as a mainstay in your book, as I always thought that was a nice touch.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Hal Croves]

Hello Mr. Roberts,


I was wondering if you would comment on a letter dated April 16, 1953 that purports to be from Herman Petrasch to the state librarian Mr. Wendsor, that is pretty clear in the position that Jacob`s last name was Waltzer. I am sure you know the one. If the letter is fabricated then it really does not matter.

If it is legitimate then it presents a set of possibilites that touches on the Ely account. That is if Herman is correct then why has the effort been made to steer folks to the Waltz name and it may suggest that Ely has been working on a fundamental level with all of this that few really suspect.

A level that perhaps touches on his time in Boulder City and who knows all the way to the area that would become Davis Dam.

Maybe we don`t have a clue who the Dutchman really was.

Starman

Starman,

Sometimes it is worth tearing down ones own ideas and starting again from the beginning.
I would not rule out the Walzer connection just yet.
There is just too much uncertainty to make definitive declarations either way.
I have ask this question before, but no one responded. Perhaps I will have better luck this time around.
Can anyone tell us anything about the "French" mine?
It seems that a few of the main characters in our story were looking for it.
What makes things interesting is the fact that Jacob Walzer arrived from France...

View attachment 856798

 

[Hal Croves]

Cubfan,

Thats an interesting angle and if Waltz was ever in New Zealand with the Duppa's he may have arrived in America from that country. The immigration records from NZ from the mid 1800's are very poor to say the least.

I think it may have been Barney Barnard who first said Waltz worked for Charles Hauselt and that may be where Higham came up with it. Both men used the story. Where they got that story is interesting and a mystery.

The problem with the Waltz working for Hauslet angle comes in the fact Hauselt didn't arrive in America until 1849. We know Waltz was at least in the country for a year before that, and most probably 9 years before that. In 1848 Waltz filed his application for citizenship at Natchez Mississippi. On that ap he stated he had arrived in America 9 years earlier in 1839. However, Barnard and Higham may have been on the right track but on the wrong train.

The Charles Hauselt who had the merchant business in New York ( a hides and leather factory ) had a brother who worked with him named Edward Hauselt. Edward had a son named Charles Hauselt, ( the nephew of Charles Hauselt the businessman ). Hauselt also had a business partner named William Schmittheimer. Steve Creager was following up on Higham and Barnards Waltz - Hauselt connection, and found that either the nephew (Charles Hauselt,) or the partner, (Schmittheimer) or possibly both, were married to Waltz ladies. No connection was ever made as Steve never finished that research but this may have been where Barnard and Higham got the idea of the Waltz being related and worked for Hauselt. Charles Hauselt died about 1886 and both his nephew and Schmittheimer were executors of his estate. I never knew for certain if this had any relevance to our Jacob Waltz or if it was just a coincidence involving the Waltz name.

Since Jacob Waltz's whereabouts are unknown between the years 1839 and 1848, and again from 1849 through 1860, he could have been almost anywhere, he even may have left the country and returned again.

Matthew

Matthew Roberts,
Forgive me for jumping in here, however I am confused by what you wrote (highlighted in red) and am hoping that you will help. You wrote that Steve Creager "found" a possible connection to Waltz ladies. Then you wrote "No connection was ever made. Can you expand on this?

Also, have you ever looked at Jacob Walzer, the miner living in Colorado during that period?

Thank you for sharing that Matthew.

 

[Not Peralta]

Hello Mr. Roberts,

I have always believed that Mr. Ely`s time in Boulder City was special. As city administrator he was a tough man that was adept to tough times.

Imagine it was not an easy thing to run a gambling free town in Nevada. Was he a success. Guess so.

The proximity of Boulder City to Eldorado Canyon should not be lost. Eldorado Canyon was the site of both Spanish and other mining operations and in the historical records of the times are references to Mexicans returning to Eldorado Canyons with maps, etc., trying to locate mining operations. I suspect the history of the place was not lost on Mr. Ely.

Perhaps Mr. Ely was able to secure information from some of the miners or others in Eldorado Canyon for his efforts.

One thing I would like to mention to you on a side issue. I have written several books that are used in a South African educational institution and I would never release a book without a complete understanding of the contents and agreement with sources as to what was appropriate for release. I believe your explanation of events surrounding Corbin`s book are understandable. Any author must ultimately take responsibility for their work. Another example of this is Glover`s work.

Unfortunately when one reads the nonsense in the Glover work regarding ore deposition the only conclusion you can draw is the man was describing dutchman ore in a way that was hard to understand or he simply did not understand the geology he was exposed to. Based on information I am familiar with here at the University the ore came from an epithermal deposit with a typical range of expected minerals with a high quartz crystalization temperature. I would say an epithermal deposit associated with a Caldera Complex close to Tortilla Mountain on a contact zone with another caldera.

Good luck with your discussion and hopefully some people with find within themselves a certain amount of maturity to act like adults.


Starman

the story about the Spanish and Mexicans with maps trying to locate past mining operations on the Colorado has been legend here for over a hundred years, the actual story written in 1955 or 1956 is called, the spirit cursed gold mine. np

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Hello Mr. Roberts,


I was wondering if you would comment on a letter dated April 16, 1953 that purports to be from Herman Petrasch to the state librarian Mr. Wendsor, that is pretty clear in the position that Jacob`s last name was Waltzer. I am sure you know the one. If the letter is fabricated then it really does not matter.

If it is legitimate then it presents a set of possibilites that touches on the Ely account. That is if Herman is correct then why has the effort been made to steer folks to the Waltz name and it may suggest that Ely has been working on a fundamental level with all of this that few really suspect.

A level that perhaps touches on his time in Boulder City and who knows all the way to the area that would become Davis Dam.

Maybe we don`t have a clue who the Dutchman really was.


Starman

Hello Starman,

You raise an excellent question. It's too bad your question was met with yet another personal attack.

Hermann Petrasch did indeed write a personal letter(s) in which he positively stated the name was , Jacob Waltzer. In my files I have a copy of one of those letters, the one to Mulford Windsor I do not have but do have the one written in about 1944 to the Pioneer Cemetery Association in Phoenix. Petrasch wrote to the Pioneer Cemetery people in a reply to them to identify the proper gravesite of Jacob Waltzer. For those who are not aware, Jacob Waltzer-Waltz is buried in the Petrasch family plot in that cemetery one grave east of the grave of Hermann's brother, George Petrasch. In 1994 the grave of Waltzer-Waltz was verified by ground penetration radar at the exact spot Hermann said it was.

The entire Petrasch family, Hermann, his father Gottfreid, his mother, his sister, his brothers George and Rhinehart, were acquainted with the Dutchman. The family lived in Phoenix from the mid 1880's until around 1888 when young George Petrasch died of Diptheria in Phoenix and was buried in the Pioneer cemetery. After young George's death the Petrasch family moved away and split up, the mother and daughter to Kansas and Hermann and Gotfried moved on to Montana and Washington state. It is not certain that Rhinehart ever left Phoenix with his family and may well have remained behind. Hermann was absolutely positive about Waltzer's name and never wavered from his spelling of the name. Given the family's history with Jacob Waltzer-Waltz, his letters and statements cannot just be dismissed out of hand.

The Waltz-Waltzer controversy has raged for decades and still is a hot topic even today. While I believe Waltzer-Waltz signed his name W-a-l-t-z, I have never been certain he didn't change his last name at some point in time.

Matthew

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Hal Croves,

While Steve found the possibility of both men having married Waltz girls, Steve never was able to establish if the Waltz girls were ever related to the Dutchman or if it was just a coincidence of name. So a connection to the name Waltz was made, but no connection to the specific Dutchman Waltz.

Yes, a Waltzer is refered to in the diary-journal-letters of the man who ran the sutler store at the Army post that was Fort Mohave along the Colorado River.


Matthew

 

[cactusjumper]

Hello Starman,

You raise an excellent question. It's too bad your question was met with yet another personal attack.

Hermann Petrasch did indeed write a personal letter(s) in which he positively stated the name was , Jacob Waltzer. In my files I have a copy of one of those letters, the one to Mulford Windsor I do not have but do have the one written in about 1944 to the Pioneer Cemetery Association in Phoenix. Petrasch wrote to the Pioneer Cemetery people in a reply to them to identify the proper gravesite of Jacob Waltzer. For those who are not aware, Jacob Waltzer-Waltz is buried in the Petrasch family plot in that cemetery one grave east of the grave of Hermann's brother, George Petrasch. In 1994 the grave of Waltzer-Waltz was verified by ground penetration radar at the exact spot Hermann said it was.

The entire Petrasch family, Hermann, his father Gottfreid, his mother, his sister, his brothers George and Rhinehart, were acquainted with the Dutchman. The family lived in Phoenix from the mid 1880's until around 1888 when young George Petrasch died of Diptheria in Phoenix and was buried in the Pioneer cemetery. After young George's death the Petrasch family moved away and split up, the mother and daughter to Kansas and Hermann and Gotfried moved on to Montana and Washington state. It is not certain that Rhinehart ever left Phoenix with his family and may well have remained behind. Hermann was absolutely positive about Waltzer's name and never wavered from his spelling of the name. Given the family's history with Jacob Waltzer-Waltz, his letters and statements cannot just be dismissed out of hand.

The Waltz-Waltzer controversy has raged for decades and still is a hot topic even today. While I believe Waltzer-Waltz signed his name W-a-l-t-z, I have never been certain he didn't change his last name at some point in time.

Matthew

Kraig,

It may be that "Starman" also known as Martin Waltzer or Walzer may be on the up and up, but to make that judgement you would have to go back through all of the posts that have come down through the Ben Davis pipeline over the years. If you start with the conversations that began with Late49er, you will have a much better handle on the saga. It has gone on for a number of years now, much like other fictional tales that we know of.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[starman 1]

Mr. Roberts,

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my question. It does appear many things about the Dutchman are not as settled as one might think.

Hello Hal,

Good post. Have to say Walzer is the name i believe is correct for a lot of reasons. France, who would have thought.

Have a good day,

Starman