Jacob Waltz the Dutchman

[cactusjumper]

Hello Mr. Roberts,

I have always believed that Mr. Ely`s time in Boulder City was special. As city administrator he was a tough man that was adept to tough times.

Imagine it was not an easy thing to run a gambling free town in Nevada. Was he a success. Guess so.

The proximity of Boulder City to Eldorado Canyon should not be lost. Eldorado Canyon was the site of both Spanish and other mining operations and in the historical records of the times are references to Mexicans returning to Eldorado Canyons with maps, etc., trying to locate mining operations. I suspect the history of the place was not lost on Mr. Ely.

Perhaps Mr. Ely was able to secure information from some of the miners or others in Eldorado Canyon for his efforts.

One thing I would like to mention to you on a side issue. I have written several books that are used in a South African educational institution and I would never release a book without a complete understanding of the contents and agreement with sources as to what was appropriate for release. I believe your explanation of events surrounding Corbin`s book are understandable. Any author must ultimately take responsibility for their work. Another example of this is Glover`s work.

Unfortunately when one reads the nonsense in the Glover work regarding ore deposition the only conclusion you can draw is the man was describing dutchman ore in a way that was hard to understand or he simply did not understand the geology he was exposed to. Based on information I am familiar with here at the University the ore came from an epithermal deposit with a typical range of expected minerals with a high quartz crystalization temperature. I would say an epithermal deposit associated with a Caldera Complex close to Tortilla Mountain on a contact zone with another caldera.

Good luck with your discussion and hopefully some people with find within themselves a certain amount of maturity to act like adults.


Starman

Ben,

Dr. Glover has enough pride in his work to sign his real name to all of it. Did he make some mistakes......of course he did. Thing is, he believed in his sources.......like Kraig, to tell him the truth. Little thing called TRUST. Some of his "friends" gave him manufactured stories and evidence. That same source has done the same thing to other "friends".

Dr. Glover is a man of honor and a good friend of ours. We should all strive to reach his level of integrity. While I doubt he will ever condemn his "friend", I believe he will correct any erroneous information when he is told the truth. That has been done.

Much of the information in his new book came directly from the Ely Family. That book will be out in the Fall. Everyone interested in Ely and Bark's search for the LDM should read it. I suspect it will not have any of the undocumented history you are disseminating here.

Trust is a funny thing. Once that trust is betrayed, the friendship will never be the same. Among the Apache of old, the betrayer becomes a man without relatives. Pretty much, a ghost.

Interesting how things have worked out, isn't it? You and Kraig make an excellent team. Can't wait to see what exciting new things you are able to develop.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[Matthew Roberts]

Hello Mr. Roberts,

I have always believed that Mr. Ely`s time in Boulder City was special. As city administrator he was a tough man that was adept to tough times.

Imagine it was not an easy thing to run a gambling free town in Nevada. Was he a success. Guess so.

The proximity of Boulder City to Eldorado Canyon should not be lost. Eldorado Canyon was the site of both Spanish and other mining operations and in the historical records of the times are references to Mexicans returning to Eldorado Canyons with maps, etc., trying to locate mining operations. I suspect the history of the place was not lost on Mr. Ely.

Perhaps Mr. Ely was able to secure information from some of the miners or others in Eldorado Canyon for his efforts.

One thing I would like to mention to you on a side issue. I have written several books that are used in a South African educational institution and I would never release a book without a complete understanding of the contents and agreement with sources as to what was appropriate for release. I believe your explanation of events surrounding Corbin`s book are understandable. Any author must ultimately take responsibility for their work. Another example of this is Glover`s work.

Unfortunately when one reads the nonsense in the Glover work regarding ore deposition the only conclusion you can draw is the man was describing dutchman ore in a way that was hard to understand or he simply did not understand the geology he was exposed to. Based on information I am familiar with here at the University the ore came from an epithermal deposit with a typical range of expected minerals with a high quartz crystalization temperature. I would say an epithermal deposit associated with a Caldera Complex close to Tortilla Mountain on a contact zone with another caldera.

Good luck with your discussion and hopefully some people with find within themselves a certain amount of maturity to act like adults.


Starman

Starman,

Sims Ely did run a tight ship in his Boulder City work camp in the 30's. He was not universally liked, either in Boulder or Phoenix. And that is not my opinion, that is a historical fact written in his many biographies. He had a tough job and it took tough measures, he was a bit of a dictator and demanded obedience and control, sometimes for no other reason than for the feeling he got from controlling other peoples lives and actions. That's never a good thing under any circumstances.

The lessons learned at Boulder were used later on the Colorado at Davis and Parker Dam worksites. Eldorado canyon is in direct proximity with the Davis site. No one knows for sure where Ely got all his information and ideas, certainly it wasn't all from the notes of Jim Bark.

I completely agree with your statement about writing a book, very well said. T Glover did an ore "analysis", but when his book came out, it was written up as an ore "comparison". The comparison was a contradiction. That may have been an over site, or an editing decision or just a way to put it in the book without really letting anyone know what the results really were. I have to agree with your statement, in my own personal opinion, the Dutchman ore originates from a very geologically tortured area where two and possibly a third caldera have overlapped each other, the Tortilla Caldera being one of them. Michael Sheridan first mapped this area and identified two Caldera collapses and since his work, a third is believed to underlay the other two. No other area of the Superstition Mountains would be so geologically ripe for a rich metallic ore deposit than that area. Walter Gassler had a mining engineer friend of his tell him that if there were a metallic ore deposit in the Superstitions, that is where it would be located.

In the past you have not agreed with me on several things, and I have gone another path with things you have believed. But we always have shown respect for each others opinion and our right to say what we think. We don't have to agree to be civil and respectful. I predict in the future there will be more things you will think I'm out in left field on and I will be stumped by some of the things you present. In almost every post there is something to be picked out to make someone think in a different way about things. Maturity is when you can disagree and not feel the need to attack first the message, and then the person. Some learn that, others never do.

Matthew

 

[cactusjumper]

Kraig,

"Maturity is when you can disagree and not feel the need to attack first the message, and then the person. Some learn that, others never do."

Considering the number of times in the past where you have first disagreed and "felt the need to attack first the message, and then the person.", and then delete all of your posts to CYA, I am very happy to see that you have matured.

You seem to have avoided telling this forum about growing up on the San Carlos Reservation, or about living with your aunt in Phoenix. If you have forgotten about those parts of your life, I will be happy to post the information for you. Not one word would be changed, it will all be just as you have written it yourself. Same as I always do.

On the other hand, you are quite correct about Michael Sheridan, but a little off on Ely. "he was a bit of a dictator and demanded obedience and control, sometimes for no other reason than for the feeling he got from controlling other peoples lives and actions. That's never a good thing under any circumstances."

Is the highlighted portion of your statement your professional opinion?

Believe I hear a Mod's phone ringing.........

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Matthew Roberts]

In Dennis McBridela's biography of Sims Ely he is absolutely scathing in his characterization of Ely. By comparison I am kind and highly complimentary.
Excerpts of Bridella's review of Ely and his life, especially his time in Boulder City were printed over a several week period in the Las Vegas Journal Review a few years ago.

Sims Ely | Las Vegas Review-Journal


In one instance, Bridella writes Ely had an argument with a man who disagreed with him continuously, to get back at him Ely had the man and his wife kicked out of Boulder City, but not before Ely took their daughter and gave her to a man in the Boulder City camp to raise. Ely promised the man he would pay him for raising the girl but later refused to pay and the man never received a dime from Ely. Bridella hints at some sort of extortion and intimidation was employed by Ely to accomplish this. It wasn't enough to just kick the man and his family out.

Bridella's review of Ely is by no means the most critical. Other authors were not so kind.

Ely had his good qualities but also a mean and sadistic streak. Not my opinion, other authors direct writings.

Matthew

 

[cactusjumper]

In Dennis McBridela's biography of Sims Ely he is absolutely scathing in his characterization of Ely. By comparison I am kind and highly complimentary.
Excerpts of Bridella's review of Ely and his life, especially his time in Boulder City were printed over a several week period in the Las Vegas Journal Review a few years ago.

Sims Ely | Las Vegas Review-Journal


In one instance, Bridella writes Ely had an argument with a man who disagreed with him continuously, to get back at him Ely had the man and his wife kicked out of Boulder City, but not before Ely took their daughter and gave her to a man in the Boulder City camp to raise. Ely promised the man he would pay him for raising the girl but later refused to pay and the man never received a dime from Ely. Bridella hints at some sort of extortion and intimidation was employed by Ely to accomplish this. It wasn't enough to just kick the man and his family out.

Bridella's review of Ely is by no means the most critical. Other authors were not so kind.

Ely had his good qualities but also a mean and sadistic streak. Not my opinion, other authors direct writings.

Matthew

Kraig,

I don't really disagree with you, but it was a different time. The jobs that needed to be done took hard men, trying to keep other hard men under some kind of control. Like any man who has strong opinions on how things should to be done, Ely made many enemies......as well as many close friends. One such close friend was a man named Frank T. Alkire, someone you have voiced a very high opinion of in the past. Since you have had many private conversations with Mr. Alkire's children, I will accede to your expertise there.
______________________________________________________

For those who may have wondered about my avitar, the feather, stones and small bag of Tule pollen are gifts from Matthew, which is what I knew Kraig as originally. In the Apache way (his gift was Apache in nature) I knew a return gift was in order.

I had a nicely framed copy of a Curtis picture that hung in the center of my Apache wall in my office. It was my favorite, but Apache custom says a real gift must be something you don't really want to give up. It was mailed to Kraig, and never redone.




You see, I believed that Kraig and I were friends. We would never need to lie to each other.
I have never told an untruth about him, that I know of. His gift was one of Power, mine was a gift of friendship. One was real, the other was not.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[coazon de oro]

Hell O Joe,

I hope you will excuse my interjection, but life is too short to leave with a heavy heart. It may be that the gift of power is yet to be seen. After all, it does take a big man to forgive. There is a time for healing, this is the reason the peace pipe was customarily lighted. It would be a most memorable rendezvous if the pipe was lighted, and you would invite your old friend for a puff, to bury the hatchet.

Coazon De Oro

 

[WATASHA]

Hello,

I don't know Glover, but is there a writer that doesn't embellish....Even a little?

Probably the ONLY book I've read on the Lost Dutchman that doesn't seem to embellish much is The Bible. Now I don't know anything about false information given to Mrs. Corbin, that could be true, but at least that book isn't filled with a bunch of "stories". To me it seems it was put together to give a lot of the information that is available on the Lost Dutchman to the public. Doesn't seem like she put a lot of personal opinions in the book, like most other authors have done in the past.

I guess I'm glad I got a copy before they were pulled from the shelf. I don't have as much experience in this as most of you on here probably do, so this is just my opinion.

thanks for the time,
Waylon

 

[Matthew Roberts]

There is an old Apache custom, not practiced by the modern, Christianized Apache, but held by the traditional followers. It has to do with the giving of something, food, medicine, knowledge, etc. The item is not given to make friendship or try to buy any ones allegiance or with the intent of receiving something in return or to even what is perceived as a debt. It is given because the giver sees the receiver is in need of something, food, medicine, KNOWLEDGE, etc.

A traditional Apache does not say thank you for receiving something of value from another, neither does an Apache expect to be thanked for giving someone what is needed. To say thank you would be an insult to the giver. A traditional Apache does not give things such as Christmas presents for no reason other than it's the thing to do at the time. Careful thought goes into the giving of an item, something that is much needed by the receiver, nothing is given capriciously or to even things up. To say thank you for such an item would be like saying to the giver, you are too stupid to know I needed this. Both the giver and receiver understand the item was given because it was needed and no words of gratitude are required. Some day the receiver may be the one to see a need of the giver and then a needed item might be offered, again without the requirement of thanks or a later equal repayment. Some items have great power, if used wisely by the receiver it can be very beneficial to him. If he understands little, or he does not believe in power, or his heart is bad, the item is worthless to him.

My Private Message box was filled again last night and thanks to everyone for their support, all I can say is don't be afraid to post your thoughts and ideas. Ignore the negative elements and the attacks and concentrate on the subject topics. I spoke with Greg Davis yesterday, he asked about putting an article written by the late Steve Creager in the next Superstition Mountain Historical Society Journal (SMHSJ) . Steve was writing a history of German immigration to America, Waltz and Weiser immigration and possible family in America. Steve's article was the last one he was working on when he passed away, he was 95% done with it and he had worked on it with me when he made his last trip out to Arizona. Greg found Steve's copy of the article in my files at his house and asked me if it would be alright to put it in the Journal. Steve expressed to me his desire to have all his articles published one day, as well as a book he was beginning to write. I told Greg to surely include it, I know Steve would be happy to see his work there. Steve has written one or two other articles that appeared in past SMHSJ and other publications. It should be a great addition and of great interest. Steve was a great writer, turned out to be a good mountain hiker and was a good friend, he is very much missed by his former partners.

Matthew

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

matthew,
nice post...
the more I learn the less I know.

 

[WATASHA]

Matthew,

I'm interested in reading that article when it comes out. Is that journal available online, or is it something you have to subscribe to?

thanks for the time,
Waylon

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew,

I'm interested in reading that article when it comes out. Is that journal available online, or is it something you have to subscribe to?

thanks for the time,
Waylon

WATASHA

The Superstition Mountain Historical Society Journal is unfortunately not on line, but can be purchased and ordered from the SMHS Museum in Apache Junction or on their website. The Journal comes out once a year. I couldn't get a definite date from Greg when the next Journal was due out but it is usually about January sometime. The SMHS staff asked me to write an article on the life and times of Crazy Jake ( Robert Simpson Jacob ), his downfall, fraud troubles and prison time. That article will be in the next Journal also.

Also, copies of Helen Corbin's The Bible, are still on the shelves in many book stores, I was in a chain store in Anaheim a few weeks ago and they had 2 copies. Also a couple copies of T Glovers Golden Dream book. I've seen copies in several stores here in California both in Orange and Los Angeles counties.

Matthew

 

[WATASHA]

Matthew,

Thanks for the info.

I KNEW I had seen some copies at our local Barnes and Noble here in Phoenix recently. Guess someone is still making them available. Hard to find Glovers books here though. Especially the Golden Dream. I got lucky. A friend that hits yard sales found me a copy for $1. Not too bad considering what they are going for online.

thanks for the time,
Waylon

 

[cactusjumper]

Hell O Joe,

I hope you will excuse my interjection, but life is too short to leave with a heavy heart. It may be that the gift of power is yet to be seen. After all, it does take a big man to forgive. There is a time for healing, this is the reason the peace pipe was customarily lighted. It would be a most memorable rendezvous if the pipe was lighted, and you would invite your old friend for a puff, to bury the hatchet.

Coazon De Oro

Homar,

I forgave Kraig a long time ago. At the same time, I see nothing positive in forgetting. He has continued to insult me in oblique manners while I answer more directly. That's my nature. I know I sound like I'm still angry, but my anger was replaced by sadness.

I do feel it's good to let people know about Kraig's true nature and history. I have a great respect for history, and have a hard time seeing a good story teller creating his own. I will be quiet soon enough.

Thanks for your concern,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Matthew,

Thanks for the info.

I KNEW I had seen some copies at our local Barnes and Noble here in Phoenix recently. Guess someone is still making them available. Hard to find Glovers books here though. Especially the Golden Dream. I got lucky. A friend that hits yard sales found me a copy for $1. Not too bad considering what they are going for online.

thanks for the time,
Waylon

Waylon,

There are still copies available of Helen's "Bible....", as Kraig mentioned. Right now, Bob Corbin has removed all of the books under his control from sale. When the ones that are left out there are gone, you will only find used ones for sale.
Bob's story about how that book came to be, is a bit different than Kraigs. Many people at the Rendezvous have heard it directly from Bob. Perhaps Kraig's story is correct, but I would bet the house on what Bob says happened.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[WATASHA]

Joe,

After reading through this thread, it's obvious you guys have some "history" between you. I'm just here to gather some info, not to get into the middle of a feud. After reading a few topics, you both seem to be knowledgeable on the subject, so I'm sure there is a lot to learn from both of you. I'll stay out of the rest.

I look forward to seeing all the characters at the Rendezvous. Seems like a "who's who" shows up from what I've been reading.

Thanks for the time,
Waylon

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe,

After reading through this thread, it's obvious you guys have some "history" between you. I'm just here to gather some info, not to get into the middle of a feud. After reading a few topics, you both seem to be knowledgeable on the subject, so I'm sure there is a lot to learn from both of you. I'll stay out of the rest.

I look forward to seeing all the characters at the Rendezvous. Seems like a "who's who" shows up from what I've been reading.

Thanks for the time,
Waylon

Waylon,

A wise decision. The best way to go, IMHO, is to chart your own path through all the minefields. Eventually, you will come to your own conclusions. Guess I just got too close to this particular cluster-boink.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[WATASHA]

Joe

LOTS of minefields to get around, it seems. LOL

Thanks again for the info,
Waylon

 

[Desertdog]

I am new to the forum, but I have been a frequent visitor. That said, I am aware of the topic that Joe has been referring to and has tactfully broached. While burying the hatchet is a wise and healthy choice in many situations, some hatchets are best left in the open as lessons for many of us to look back on or refer to. While I have only met Joe once, briefly, he and I have a few friends in common. I believe he has no agenda other than truthfulness in a common topic among us... the LDM. I appreciate his input and knowledge, and we are all fortunate to have him "call out" the less than honest, and steer the newer LDM seekers in a positive direction. The subject in question here has based "friendships" in falsehood and deception. While I cannot speak for Joe, I assume his bottom line point is to be carefull with whos word you put stock in. Anyone who could deceive an experienced researcher and author has deceived all of us who have read the "Bible". That places him squarely on the other end of the integrity spectrum from a man like Mr. Corbin, whos handshake is his word.

 

[WATASHA]

Desertdog,

So the whole "Bible" is false? Gassler, Ruth, all of it? I don't know Mrs. Corbin, but I find it hard to believe that an author would write an entire book based on ALL lies. She had to do SOME research into her sources, correct?

And I'm not trying to get involved in the "past arguments", I'm just trying to be clear about the "Bible" for my own personal information. If it's all false, then there's no use reading it anymore.

Thanks for your time,
Waylon

 

[WATASHA]

I was just doing some looking online and came across something that said Mrs. Corbin passed away awhile ago. My apologies if I offended anyone, that was not my intention. I can't see over a nickel right now.

Thanks for your time,
Waylon