Jacob Waltz the Dutchman

[Matthew Roberts]

In the book The Lost Dutchman Mine by Sims Ely, Wm. Morrow and Company 1953,

on page 88 chapter 7, 2nd paragraph, Ely states with certainty :

"It is now clear, however, that Waltz was, in fact, born in Germany, the only son of Karl and Judith Waltz. With the outbreak of the Revolution of 1848, the Waltz family fled to America, and the Weisers, Franz Weiser and his wife and son, Jacob, came with them. Both families settled in St. Louis ____"


On Ancestry .com this same information also has appeared. Jacob Waltz born 1810 Germany died 1891 Phoenix Arizona Territory, father Karl mother Julia.

This person is unquestionably the Jacob Waltz of Dutchman fame. Did Sims Ely know something no one else knew about Waltz's birth and family ? And if so, was Waltz his source or someone else ?

 

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[cactusjumper]

In the book The Lost Dutchman Mine by Sims Ely, Wm. Morrow and Company 1953,

on page 88 chapter 7, 2nd paragraph, Ely states with certainty :

"It is now clear, however, that Waltz was, in fact, born in Germany, the only son of Karl and Judith Waltz. With the outbreak of the Revolution of 1848, the Waltz family fled to America, and the Weisers, Franz Weiser and his wife and son, Jacob, came with them. Both families settled in St. Louis ____"


On Ancestry .com this same information also has appeared. Jacob Waltz born 1810 Germany died 1891 Phoenix Arizona Territory, father Karl mother Julia.

This person is unquestionably the Jacob Waltz of Dutchman fame. Did Sims Ely know something no one else knew about Waltz's birth and family ? And if so, was Waltz his source or someone else ?

All,

In many cases, Ancestry.com is only as accurate as the sources for many of its entry's. Often those sources wish to remain anonymous and supply no documentation for their "facts". Those entry's should not be considered infallible.

Groundwork is possibly being laid for new books on the subject of the LDM and Jacob Waltz by floating "facts" in places like Ancestry.com. Not saying you should discount such information, just saying you should be aware of what has been going on for some time now.

Two people who should be asked about these.....goings-on, are Bob Corbin and Tom Kollenborn.

"Did Sims Ely know something no one else knew about Waltz's birth and family ? And if so, was Waltz his source or someone else ?"

Since Ely did not arrive in Arizona until 1895, and Waltz died in 1891, I would speculate the answer to the above question is pretty obvious.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Matthew Roberts]

The Sims Ely quote about Waltz and family has been on Ancesty for at least 10 years and maybe longer.

If anyone allegedlty "floated" that there for the purpose of writing "new books" on the subject, they are taking their sweet time about it. Ten years was the first time I was made aware of it, it could have been on Ancestry from it's beginning. Its clearly evident this had nothing to do with, "new books" B Corbin or T Kollenborn.

Now, if anyone has anything serious, possibly where Sims Ely got this information, those who ARE serious about the thread would like to hear and discuss it.

Thanks .

 

[cactusjumper]

The Sims Ely quote about Waltz and family has been on Ancesty for at least 10 years and maybe longer.

If anyone allegedlty "floated" that there for the purpose of writing "new books" on the subject, they are taking their sweet time about it. Ten years was the first time I was made aware of it, it could have been on Ancestry from it's beginning. Its clearly evident this had nothing to do with, "new books" B Corbin or T Kollenborn.

Now, if anyone has anything serious, possibly where Sims Ely got this information, those who ARE serious about the thread would like to hear and discuss it.

Thanks .

Kraig,

Since I am the only one who has replied here, other than yourself, I assume you were talking about me, although you did not mention my name.

I can assure everyone here I am dead serious on the subject.

I agree that ten years seems like a long time to be floating a story. That would be around the time that Bob and Helen Corbin were approached with new information and documents concerning the history around the LDM and Jacob Waltz. The upshot was that the person who possessed these new documents wanted Helen to write a book, largely, based on the contents of those new documents. She agreed.

Since then, Bob Corbin has researched the truth of those documents, resulting in his removing all of the books from sale, that he could. Bob has cases of the leather bound "Bible", which I doubt he will ever sell because of the false information that was inside the book. Bob Corbin is a man of honor. Had he or Helen known the truth at the time, I am certain, the book would have never been published. What do you think? You were a good friend of the Corbin's, perhaps you might call Bob and ask him.

The thing is, Kraig, that people have been laying the groundwork for false stories about the history of the LDM and Jacob Waltz for many more years than 10. Do you agree with that?

For anyone interested in the Sims Ely story, I would highly recommend that you buy the new book by Dr. Glover which is scheduled to be released this Fall.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Some Dude]

>> “In many cases, Ancestry.com is only as accurate as the sources for many of its entry's. Often those sources wish to remain anonymous and supply no documentation for their "facts" - end quote

Deja-vu, that sounds exactly like the “facts” some people post about the Lost Dutchman Mine. Oh well, at least they’re consistent.

Since multiple descendants are able to verify the information on Ancestory.com I would think that would serve as sort of a check and balance system for accuracy.

Just my zwei Pfennige,
S.D.

 

[sgtfda]

Joe who is the person that provided tainted info to Bob?

 

[cactusjumper]

Frank,

Read Helen Corbin's book, "The Bible On The Lost Dutchman Gold Mine and Jacob Waltz". Perhaps her source, who I believe is quite proud of his work, will take credit for it here and now. All we have ever asked of him is that he explain himself. Despite everything, I still respect his knowledge of true LDM, Apache and Arizona history.

If what I have written is not true, he would do well to write the truth here.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Frank,

Read Helen Corbin's book, "The Bible On The Lost Dutchman Gold Mine and Jacob Waltz". Perhaps her source, who I believe is quite proud of his work, will take credit for it here and now. All we have ever asked of him is that he explain himself. Despite everything, I still respect his knowledge of true LDM, Apache and Arizona history.
If what I have written is not true he would do well to write the truth here.

Take care,

Joe


I don't know if you're refering to me or not but the answer is NO, I NEVER "wanted anyone to write a book", NEVER "asked anyone to write a book" and if I did want a book written I would write it myself.

As for the book, if you are refering to me, the sources are documented at the end of the book. I had NO say in what was written in that book, No say whatsoever in how it was presented, and No say in how it was interpreted. Had I ever been given the chance to edit that book or to see a final copy of it before it went to print, I would have done everything within the legal system to see that parts of what appeared in that book was never published. Some of the things that appeared in that book, the author was not given permission to include, and expressly requested they NOT be included. Those wishes were ignored. I was never shown a partial copy nor a final copy of the book before it went to print.

That is the truth, and anyone who says differently or thinks differently either doesn't know the true circumstances, or is lying through their teeth.

Matthew

 

[Matthew Roberts]

[QUOTE=Some Dude;3549019]>> “In many cases, Ancestry.com is only as accurate as the sources for many of its entry's. Often those sources wish to remain anonymous and supply no documentation for their "facts" - end quote

Deja-vu, that sounds exactly like the “facts” some people post about the Lost Dutchman Mine. Oh well, at least they’re consistent.




Since Sims Ely wrote the Waltz family history ( Karl and Judith Waltz ) came to America 1848 back in the year 1953 ( 60 years ago ). That information had to be around somewhere in 1953 and most probably much earlier.

To think Elys information first appeared on Ancestry about 2003 is just not connecting the dots very well.

What my question was before the thread was hijacked, is, where did Ely get this information in 1953 ? Did it come from old records that are no longer available to the public ? Did he get it from someone who knew Waltz personally ? Did he or Bark get it from Waltz personally ?

I see it only took one post to hijack the thread, misdirect it and start the personal attacks again. How very sad for those who want to seriously discuss the topic. Hopefully we can get past the personal attacks now and stick to the thread topic.

Matthew

 

[sgtfda]

I do enjoy your posts Matthew!

 

[somehiker]

Word gets around....Amazon.com: A Customer's review of The Bible on the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine a...

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Word gets around....Amazon.com: A Customer's review of The Bible on the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine a...

Just so there is no mistake, that review was NOT written by me or anyone I am aware of.

And again, could we please stick to the thread topic and not misdirect the thread to other subjects. If you want to talk about other Dutchman things start your own thread and discuss them.

Matthew

 

[cactusjumper]

Word gets around....Amazon.com: A Customer's review of The Bible on the Lost Dutchman Gold Mine a...

Wayne,

Yes it does and that's what's happening now. You may have noticed that out of seven reviews, all were positive but one. Wonder who wrote those negative comments.

I am way off topic at this point, so you boys have at it.

Take care

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Joe:

Who ever submitted that review was the first to do so, in the year following publication.
And well before all of this started, I believe.
The other six are probably unaware of your feelings.
Perhaps you should write a review for the sellers websites.
Helen's book was on my own list at one time.
But with all you have had to say about it, and the veracity of it's content, I don't think I would waste my dollar.
The way things are going, it sounds like Bob should have a bonfire.

 

[cactusjumper]

Frank,

Read Helen Corbin's book, "The Bible On The Lost Dutchman Gold Mine and Jacob Waltz". Perhaps her source, who I believe is quite proud of his work, will take credit for it here and now. All we have ever asked of him is that he explain himself. Despite everything, I still respect his knowledge of true LDM, Apache and Arizona history.
If what I have written is not true he would do well to write the truth here.

Take care,

Joe


I don't know if you're refering to me or not but the answer is NO, I NEVER "wanted anyone to write a book", NEVER "asked anyone to write a book" and if I did want a book written I would write it myself.

As for the book, if you are refering to me, the sources are documented at the end of the book. I had NO say in what was written in that book, No say whatsoever in how it was presented, and No say in how it was interpreted. Had I ever been given the chance to edit that book or to see a final copy of it before it went to print, I would have done everything within the legal system to see that parts of what appeared in that book was never published. Some of the things that appeared in that book, the author was not given permission to include, and expressly requested they NOT be included. Those wishes were ignored. I was never shown a partial copy nor a final copy of the book before it went to print.

That is the truth, and anyone who says differently or thinks differently either doesn't know the true circumstances, or is lying through their teeth.

Matthew

Kraig,

What you say may be quite true, so I sent your post to Bob, as he was directly involved in the entire mess. Perhaps, as an old friend of the family, you could give him a call and get the story straight from him.

I assume you are excluding Bob from your last statement above.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[starman 1]

Sims Ely

Hello Mr. Roberts,

I have to say that Mr. Ely`s book has always been a favorite of mine and your points are well taken. I have several copies of the work but have always favored the edition printed by Eyre and Spottiswoode, London published in 1953. This copy was secured in Rhodesia at Kingstons, LTD.

My point in mentioning the above is simply to point out that Mr. Ely`s work has touched lives all over the world and not just Arizona.

Perhaps the answer is as simple as the dedication page where the work is dedicated to Jim Bark, or someone close to him. It could be that the reference to Jacob was placed in the book to steer folks in the wrong way, who really knows. One thing is clear there are references in Ely`s work that speak of the Dutchman in ways that are very personal. Ways that it would seem would reflect someone quite close. I have always wondered if some of the comments came directly from Jacob but obviously that makes no sense does it?

For what it is worth it seems reasonable to me to believe this information could have come from someone who knew Jacob in San Francisco, perhaps someone associated with the Mexican Mine in Virginia City, Nevada or someone else in Virginia City.

Hopefully your question will generate more responses.


Starman

 

[somehiker]

I doubt Sims Ely or, for that matter, Jim Bark followed the stars anywhere. To me there's no mystery to the question. Both Bark and Ely were interested in the LDM and were partners in the search. If Bark knew Waltz, Julia (Helena) Thomas and the Petrasch's well, he would have passed all he had heard from them on to Sims Ely during their many hours of conversation during their period of association. Waltz may have spoken more about his past to Julia, perhaps less about his prospecting. Any conversations with Rhinehart Petrasch might have focused more on his mining ventures. Therefore I think it's likely Julia was the secondary source of the story of Waltz' journey to America.

Regards:SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

Hello Mr. Roberts,

I have to say that Mr. Ely`s book has always been a favorite of mine and your points are well taken. I have several copies of the work but have always favored the edition printed by Eyre and Spottiswoode, London published in 1953. This copy was secured in Rhodesia at Kingstons, LTD.

My point in mentioning the above is simply to point out that Mr. Ely`s work has touched lives all over the world and not just Arizona.

Perhaps the answer is as simple as the dedication page where the work is dedicated to Jim Bark, or someone close to him. It could be that the reference to Jacob was placed in the book to steer folks in the wrong way, who really knows. One thing is clear there are references in Ely`s work that speak of the Dutchman in ways that are very personal. Ways that it would seem would reflect someone quite close. I have always wondered if some of the comments came directly from Jacob but obviously that makes no sense does it?

For what it is worth it seems reasonable to me to believe this information could have come from someone who knew Jacob in San Francisco, perhaps someone associated with the Mexican Mine in Virginia City, Nevada or someone else in Virginia City.

Hopefully your question will generate more responses.


Starman

Ben,

I have both versions, and don't see any difference in the two, other than some minor (inaccurate) blurb before the title page, and size. The dedication pages are identical in content.

The book that "touched" a greater number of people, was Barry Storm's "Trail Of The Lost Dutchman/Thunder God's Gold".

I can see where you and Roberts would make a good team. You should get together on your books. Talk about identical.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Hello Mr. Roberts,

I have to say that Mr. Ely`s book has always been a favorite of mine and your points are well taken. I have several copies of the work but have always favored the edition printed by Eyre and Spottiswoode, London published in 1953. This copy was secured in Rhodesia at Kingstons, LTD.

My point in mentioning the above is simply to point out that Mr. Ely`s work has touched lives all over the world and not just Arizona.

Perhaps the answer is as simple as the dedication page where the work is dedicated to Jim Bark, or someone close to him. It could be that the reference to Jacob was placed in the book to steer folks in the wrong way, who really knows. One thing is clear there are references in Ely`s work that speak of the Dutchman in ways that are very personal. Ways that it would seem would reflect someone quite close. I have always wondered if some of the comments came directly from Jacob but obviously that makes no sense does it?

For what it is worth it seems reasonable to me to believe this information could have come from someone who knew Jacob in San Francisco, perhaps someone associated with the Mexican Mine in Virginia City, Nevada or someone else in Virginia City.

Hopefully your question will generate more responses.


Starman

Starman,

Thank you for the reply. I have often wondered about the various publications of Sims Ely's book, around the 5th or 6th printing several countries printed the work, I have a Canadian copy. I have seen a copy printed in German but don't know who printed it or what year. So you are correct, this book was read all over the globe by thousands of people and generated a lot of interest in the Lost Dutchman Mine. The LDM is not just a local Arizona secret.

Since Ely had an extensive time period spent in Nevada on the Colorado River, it is possible he picked up things from that area and workers on the Boulder Dam project who had previously been miners all over the southwest. Some of those old Boulder workers may have even known Jacob Waltz. It's not outside the realm of possibility.

Matthew

 

[starman 1]

Jacob

Hello Mr. Roberts,

I have always believed that Mr. Ely`s time in Boulder City was special. As city administrator he was a tough man that was adept to tough times.

Imagine it was not an easy thing to run a gambling free town in Nevada. Was he a success. Guess so.

The proximity of Boulder City to Eldorado Canyon should not be lost. Eldorado Canyon was the site of both Spanish and other mining operations and in the historical records of the times are references to Mexicans returning to Eldorado Canyons with maps, etc., trying to locate mining operations. I suspect the history of the place was not lost on Mr. Ely.

Perhaps Mr. Ely was able to secure information from some of the miners or others in Eldorado Canyon for his efforts.

One thing I would like to mention to you on a side issue. I have written several books that are used in a South African educational institution and I would never release a book without a complete understanding of the contents and agreement with sources as to what was appropriate for release. I believe your explanation of events surrounding Corbin`s book are understandable. Any author must ultimately take responsibility for their work. Another example of this is Glover`s work.

Unfortunately when one reads the nonsense in the Glover work regarding ore deposition the only conclusion you can draw is the man was describing dutchman ore in a way that was hard to understand or he simply did not understand the geology he was exposed to. Based on information I am familiar with here at the University the ore came from an epithermal deposit with a typical range of expected minerals with a high quartz crystalization temperature. I would say an epithermal deposit associated with a Caldera Complex close to Tortilla Mountain on a contact zone with another caldera.

Good luck with your discussion and hopefully some people with find within themselves a certain amount of maturity to act like adults.


Starman