Its End Game

[bigscoop]

just one guy Captain Thomas J Beale is who I am looking at as the one going down river on the Synia Named after Synia Higgins .

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Where are you finding documented references to a "Captain Thomas J. Beale?"
I keep seeing post relating to a "Thomas J. Beall" but never anything relating to a "Captain Thomas J. Beale."

You're obviously ignoring the simple fact that he could not have been openly in active service while his estate is being settled and contested. PERIOD! Do you really believe someone so well known, especially in New Orleans as you suggest, could have pulled all of this off? Of course not.

 

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[TN_Guest1523]

Where are you finding documented references to a "Captain Thomas J. Beale?"
I keep seeing post relating to a "Thomas J. Beall" but never anything relating to a "Captain Thomas J. Beale."

You're obviously ignoring the simple fact that he could not have been openly in active service while his estate is being settled and contested. PERIOD! Do you really believe someone so well known, especially in New Orleans as you suggest, could have pulled all of this off? Of course not.

Looks like a case of sometimers . This is the same person that I have been working with from the beginning .

 

[ECS]

... This is the same person that I have been working with from the beginning .

... and he introduced you to Reine Lister while solving C1 & C3.

 

[bigscoop]

I may have something new for you folks? Got to do some checking/confirmation first......

 

[bigscoop]

Getting back to the subject of this thread, the three following links will take you to some information that is critical in understanding why it isn't all that unthinkable that Beale was possibly a free man of color. Over the years the whole concept of slavery and free people of color has been badly distorted.....

Black Slave Owners Civil War Article by Robert M Grooms


The Black Slave Owners - SlaveRebellion.org


http://cisupa.proquest.com/ksc_assets/catalog/100539.pdf

 

[bigscoop]

It's also worth mentioning that it is often very enlightening to expand upon those typical searches for Thomas Beales/Bealls/Beals by using a lot of different keywords that were relevant to the times, such as "Beale + Slaves" or "Beale + Tobacco", etc., etc. etc. What can be quickly discovered is that there becomes an entire host of various Thomas Beale/Beall/Beal references depending on the Keywords used, so many in fact that one could spend an entire lifetime trying to sort them all out simply because there isn't enough history attached to most of these general references.

Per example, in recent "slave" database searches for the state of Virginia I have located nine different references to Thomas Beale's, and this is just in the state of Virginia, no doubt others will also be found in other typical slave holding states like LA, SC, to name a few, and this is just in searches for those with the listed name of "Beale." So the point is simply this, there were a lot of Thomas Beale/Beal/Beall's out there depending on the search criteria entered.

 

[franklin]

Where are you finding documented references to a "Captain Thomas J. Beale?"
I keep seeing post relating to a "Thomas J. Beall" but never anything relating to a "Captain Thomas J. Beale."

You're obviously ignoring the simple fact that he could not have been openly in active service while his estate is being settled and contested. PERIOD! Do you really believe someone so well known, especially in New Orleans as you suggest, could have pulled all of this off? Of course not.

"Journal from Boston to the Western Country and down the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers to New Orleans" by William Richardson, Treasurer of Boston, March 25, 1816 when he meet the barge with Captain Thomas J. Beale on board. But we must remember Thomas J. Beale was already a Captain in 1816 while Thomas J. Beale, citizen was made a captain by his fellow associates. Although, Thomas J. Beale Sr. was made Captain of Beale's Rifles in the Battle of New Orleans. Hard to say whether he is the right TJB Sr. or not?

 

[bigscoop]

HUGE List Of Beale's

Checkout the last one for sure....a real eye opener for many of you. Also, perhaps, a potential gold mine of leads.

Page 186
https://books.google.com/books?id=3...age&q=south carolina + slaves + Beale&f=false


Page 2
https://academic.lexisnexis.com/documents/upa_cis/2397_AnteBellSouthPlanSerEPt6.pdf


Page 75
https://books.google.com/books?id=i...age&q=south carolina + slaves + Beale&f=false


HUGE list of slave owners/Beale's
Beale - 1860 U.S. Federal Census - Slave Schedules - Ancestry.com

As you begin to fish deeper into all of these various "Beale" examples you will often encounter references to the name "Thomas", though with various reason and implication.

 

[ECS]

... What can be quickly discovered is that there becomes an entire host of various Thomas Beale/Beall/Beal references...

Per example, in recent "slave" database searches for the state of Virginia I have located nine different references to Thomas Beale's, and this is just in the state of Virginia, no doubt others will also be found in other typical slave holding states like LA, SC, to name a few, and this is just in searches for those with the listed name of "Beale."...

Then we have Thomas Beale Ewell of Virginia, friend of Thomas Jefferson who names his son Thomas Jefferson Beale Ewell.
Take notice in his letter to Jefferson the mention of losing his fortune.
To Thomas Jefferson from Thomas Beale Ewell, 12 December 1824
He also had a problem of his slaves running away. Scroll down to bio:
http://geneaologytrails.com/washdc/biographies/bio7.html#Dr-Thomas-Beale-Ewell

 

[bigscoop]

Then we have Thomas Beale Ewell of Virginia, friend of Thomas Jefferson who names his son Thomas Jefferson Beale Ewell.
Take notice in his letter to Jefferson the mention of losing his fortune.
To Thomas Jefferson from Thomas Beale Ewell, 12 December 1824
He also had a problem of his slaves running away. Scroll down to bio:
geneaologytrails.com

This info in this letter I have long suspected as being the possible reason why the Hart's concluded, "Thomas Jefferson Beale" but obviously have no way of knowing for certain.

But what becomes apparent in all of this (the limited examples I posted - and these just included searches bearing the "beale" keyword), is that the list of potential Beales, Bealls, Beals, etc., one will encounter turns the typical pond of choices into a vast reservoir of endless feeder streams, rivers and creeks left for a lifetime of exploration, the greatest portion of it without any real chance of conclusive result due to all of the limited information.

 

[TN_Guest1523]

It's also worth mentioning that it is often very enlightening to expand upon those typical searches for Thomas Beales/Bealls/Beals by using a lot of different keywords that were relevant to the times, such as "Beale + Slaves" or "Beale + Tobacco", etc., etc. etc. What can be quickly discovered is that there becomes an entire host of various Thomas Beale/Beall/Beal references depending on the Keywords used, so many in fact that one could spend an entire lifetime trying to sort them all out simply because there isn't enough history attached to most of these general references.

Per example, in recent "slave" database searches for the state of Virginia I have located nine different references to Thomas Beale's, and this is just in the state of Virginia, no doubt others will also be found in other typical slave holding states like LA, SC, to name a few, and this is just in searches for those with the listed name of "Beale." So the point is simply this, there were a lot of Thomas Beale/Beal/Beall's out there depending on the search criteria entered.

Taverners of Colonia Virginia - Genealogy.com
Thomas Beale IV son was
Taverner Beale Sr son was
Tavenner Beale Jr son was
Thomas Beale of Fincastle is my Captain Thomas J Beale Sr

 

[TN_Guest1523]

It's also worth mentioning that it is often very enlightening to expand upon those typical searches for Thomas Beales/Bealls/Beals by using a lot of different keywords that were relevant to the times, such as "Beale + Slaves" or "Beale + Tobacco", etc., etc. etc. What can be quickly discovered is that there becomes an entire host of various Thomas Beale/Beall/Beal references depending on the Keywords used, so many in fact that one could spend an entire lifetime trying to sort them all out simply because there isn't enough history attached to most of these general references.

Per example, in recent "slave" database searches for the state of Virginia I have located nine different references to Thomas Beale's, and this is just in the state of Virginia, no doubt others will also be found in other typical slave holding states like LA, SC, to name a few, and this is just in searches for those with the listed name of "Beale." So the point is simply this, there were a lot of Thomas Beale/Beal/Beall's out there depending on the search criteria entered.

2. FRANCES5 MADISON (AMBROSE4, JOHN3, JOHN2, ISAAC1) was born March 06, 1725/26 in Orange County, Virginia, and died July 1776 in Greenville County, South Carolina. She married (1) TAVERNER BEALE I in Orange County, Virginia, son of THOMAS BEALE and ELIZABETH TAVERNER. She married (2) JACOB HITE December 15, 1757 in Orange County, Virginia, son of JOST HITE and ANNA MERCKLIN.

Children of FRANCES MADISON and TAVERNER BEALE are:

5. i. TAVERNER6 BEALE II, COL., b. February 03, 1741/42, Orange County, Virginia; d. June O5, 1810, Botetourt County, Virginia.
ii. CHARLES BEALE, b. Richmond County, Virginia; d. May 02, 1760, Richmond County, Virginia.
iii. FRANCES MADISON BEALE, b. Orange County, Virginia; m. THOMAS HITE.
iv. ELIZABETH BEALE, b. Orange County, Virginia; m. GEORGE HARRISON.
v. ANNE BEALE, b. Orange County, Virginia; d. 1824; m. CUTHBERT HARRISON.

http://www.johannadordick.com/madison-family.html

 

[TN_Guest1523]

2. FRANCES5 MADISON (AMBROSE4, JOHN3, JOHN2, ISAAC1) was born March 06, 1725/26 in Orange County, Virginia, and died July 1776 in Greenville County, South Carolina. She married (1) TAVERNER BEALE I in Orange County, Virginia, son of THOMAS BEALE and ELIZABETH TAVERNER. She married (2) JACOB HITE December 15, 1757 in Orange County, Virginia, son of JOST HITE and ANNA MERCKLIN.

Children of FRANCES MADISON and TAVERNER BEALE are:

5. i. TAVERNER6 BEALE II, COL., b. February 03, 1741/42, Orange County, Virginia; d. June O5, 1810, Botetourt County, Virginia.
ii. CHARLES BEALE, b. Richmond County, Virginia; d. May 02, 1760, Richmond County, Virginia.
iii. FRANCES MADISON BEALE, b. Orange County, Virginia; m. THOMAS HITE.
iv. ELIZABETH BEALE, b. Orange County, Virginia; m. GEORGE HARRISON.
v. ANNE BEALE, b. Orange County, Virginia; d. 1824; m. CUTHBERT HARRISON.

Johanna Dordick - Descendants of Ambrose Madison

5. TAVERNER6 BEALE II, COL. (FRANCES5 MADISON, AMBROSE4, JOHN3, JOHN2, ISAAC1) was born February 03, 1741/42 in Orange County, Virginia, and died June O5, 1810 in Botetourt County, Virginia. He married ELIZABETH HITE December 22, 1763 in Virginia, daughter of JACOB HITE and CATHERINE OBANNON.

Children of TAVERNER BEALE and ELIZABETH HITE are:

6. i. CATHERINE7 BEALE, b. September 25, 1765, Dunmore, Botetourt or Shenandoah County, Virginia; d. February 22, 1856, Botetourt County,
Virginia; bur. Locust Bottom Church Cemetery.
ii. CHARLES BEALE, b. February 17, 1771; m. (1) ELIZABETH SKILLERN; m. (2) ANNA KYLE.
7. iii. THOMAS BEALE, b. April 02, 1773, Virginia; d. possibly New Orleans, Louisianna.
iv. JAMES MADISON HITE BEALE, COL., b. February 17, 1786; m. MARY STEENBERGEN, October 03, 1806, Woodstock, Virginia.
v. ELIZABETH BEALE, b. April 07, 1769; m. WILLIAM STEENBERGEN, SR..
8. vi. JOHN BEALE, b. March 01, 1767.
vii. MARY BEALE, b. July 09, 1775; m. (1) PETER HIGGINS, MAJOR; m. (2) JACOB WILLIAMSON, DR .

 

[TN_Guest1523]

"Journal from Boston to the Western Country and down the Ohio and Mississippi Rivers to New Orleans" by William Richardson, Treasurer of Boston, March 25, 1816 when he meet the barge with Captain Thomas J. Beale on board. But we must remember Thomas J. Beale was already a Captain in 1816 while Thomas J. Beale, citizen was made a captain by his fellow associates. Although, Thomas J. Beale Sr. was made Captain of Beale's Rifles in the Battle of New Orleans. Hard to say whether he is the right TJB Sr. or not?

 

[bigscoop]

The absolutely HUGE problem with all of this other Beale/Beall "suspected" stuff, once again, arrives with the settling and contesting of the Beale estate, something that clearly could not have transpired if this well known Captain Thomas J. Beale/Beall was still alive and well. This has always been and will always remain as the downfall of this most improbable manufactured connection, this and "the fact" that they were two different individuals.

 

[ECS]

...
Children of TAVERNER BEALE and ELIZABETH HITE are:

6. i. CATHERINE7 BEALE, b. September 25, 1765, Dunmore, Botetourt or Shenandoah County, Virginia; d. February 22, 1856, Botetourt County,
Virginia; bur. Locust Bottom Church Cemetery.
ii. CHARLES BEALE, b. February 17, 1771; m. (1) ELIZABETH SKILLERN; m. (2) ANNA KYLE.
7. iii. THOMAS BEALE, b. April 02, 1773, Virginia; d. possibly New Orleans, Louisianna.
iv. JAMES MADISON HITE BEALE, COL., b. February 17, 1786; m. MARY STEENBERGEN, October 03, 1806, Woodstock, Virginia.
v. ELIZABETH BEALE, b. April 07, 1769; m. WILLIAM STEENBERGEN, SR..
8. vi. JOHN BEALE, b. March 01, 1767.
vii. MARY BEALE, b. July 09, 1775; m. (1) PETER HIGGINS, MAJOR; m. (2) JACOB WILLIAMSON, DR .

Are you of the belief that none of us on these treads had ever seen this before?
This does not prove that this Thomas Beale is the Thomas Beale of the 1885 Beale Papers.
Was he six feet in height, long black hair with black eyes, very strong , a symmetrical example of swarthy male beauty?

 

[ECS]

...
HUGE list of slave owners/Beale's
Beale - 1860 U.S. Federal Census - Slave Schedules - Ancestry.com

As you begin to fish deeper into all of these various "Beale" examples you will often encounter references to the name "Thomas", though with various reason and implication.

The 1810 Census of Virginia lists Solly Beale, Free Born of Color Head of Household, Fairfax county, Virginia.

 

[releventchair]

Sigh.
As usual , I can see where juggling a greased pig would be easier.

 

[TN_Guest1523]

Are you of the belief that none of us on these treads had ever seen this before?
This does not prove that this Thomas Beale is the Thomas Beale of the 1885 Beale Papers.
Was he six feet in height, long black hair with black eyes, very strong , a symmetrical example of swarthy male beauty?

Funny thing is I showed all of you this about a year ago .

 

[TN_Guest1523]

The absolutely HUGE problem with all of this other Beale/Beall "suspected" stuff, once again, arrives with the settling and contesting of the Beale estate, something that clearly could not have transpired if this well known Captain Thomas J. Beale/Beall was still alive and well. This has always been and will always remain as the downfall of this most improbable manufactured connection, this and "the fact" that they were two different individuals.

So no one has seem Captain Thomas J Beale Sr after about 1822 at the christening . St. Louis, Mo., May 9th, 1822 was last letter from TJB to Morriss, If we believe that TJB sent the letter in person and not had a lawyer send it for him at a certain date . We can conclude that he went missing about last half of 1822-1823 . With the contact that he was in with the family and Mr Morriss at all times from 1817-1822 at this point the family must have thought him dead . There was letters from Captain Thomas J Beale Sr to his wife and the fact that she was in St Louis during some of that time may bring new light this . Steam boats were very fast for the time we are looking at after the 1820's .