It was in the 2nd year of the CONFEDERATE WAR...

[ECS]

... As prime example of this local love connection it strikes me that none of this local love connection includes the names Jackson, Coles, Witcher, Clay, Marshall, all of these being names that are actually mentioned in the Beale pamphlet and therefore they can be directly connected to the tale...Instead of utilizing names that can be directly connected to the tale this local love affair has created lore surrounding local individuals who can't even be associated with the tale. A very strange and hugely suspect circumstance indeed.

The names used were probably included to provide "credibility" to the Morriss part of the Beale story, as the names employed were well known Virginians that had ties to Bedford county.
Col Issac Coles an Capt William Witcher were Revolutionary War heroes from Virginia.
Chief Justice Marshall was also from Virginia and had ties to Bedford county.
Max Guggenheimer, Esq, served in the Confederate army, and was a well known Lynchberg merchant.
Rev Charles Clay, of Bedford, was a friend of Thomas Jefferson, and is buried Bedford's Ivey Hill Cemetery.
CSA Gen Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson died" in the 2nd year of the Confederate War".
For those who need a refresher on the Beale Papers:
The UnMuseum - The Beale Papers - Original Text

 

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[bigscoop]

The names used were probably included to provide "credibility" to the Morriss part of the Beale story, as the names employed were well known Virginians that had ties to Bedford county.
Col Issac Coles an Capt William Witcher were Revolutionary War heroes from Virginia.
Chief Justice Marshall was also from Virginia and had ties to Bedford county.
Max Guggenheimer, Esq, served in the Confederate army, and was a well known Lynchberg merchant.
Rev Charles Clay, of Bedford, was a friend of Thomas Jefferson, and is buried Bedford's Ivey Hill Cemetery.
CSA Gen Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson died" in the 2nd year of the Confederate War".
For those who need a refresher on the Beale Papers:
The UnMuseum - The Beale Papers - Original Text

Of course, a little bit of speculation and blind guess work on which Clay, Coles, Jackson was being referenced. Though I'm sure it will be whichever ones local lore requires.

 

[ECS]

Of course, a little bit of speculation and blind guess work on which Clay, Coles, Jackson was being referenced. Though I'm sure it will be whichever ones local lore requires.

Do you question the use of Max Guggenheimer, Esq name as well? Or is that just local lore?
Those names of known Virginian residents were mentioned for a reason in the Beale Papers, either to provide "credibility" for the Morriss portion of the tale, or inserted as a clue for events behind the story.

 

[bigscoop]

Do you question the use of Max Guggenheimer, Esq name as well? Or is that just local lore?
Those names of known Virginian residents were mentioned for a reason in the Beale Papers, either to provide "credibility" for the Morriss portion of the tale, or inserted as a clue for events behind the story.

I find it interesting that in the face of other theories you'll argue tooth and nail that the story was just a simple writing, yet on the other hand, and in favor of your own personal speculated theory, you'll argue tooth and nail that there was something more to the story. Again, bottom line is that there is absolutely nothing to support anything beyond a simple dime novel. All else has simply been created through the minds of men who want to believe that there must be something more to the tale, hence - it's all just simple lore that continues to feed the man made legend. Not one shred of evidence exist to support that the pamphlet was anything else. So why must there be a CSA connection of any kind? Is the entire story a CSA conspiracy just because there's one "very brief" reference to the second year of the confederate war? And from this one very brief reference an entire list of local unreferenced individuals must obviously be engrained in the mystery. How do you justify this logic? You know as well as I do that ten years from now history will still be repeating itself and that this mystery will still remain in the same state as it is today.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

The names used were probably included to provide "credibility" to the Morriss part of the Beale story, as the names employed were well known Virginians that had ties to Bedford county.
Col Issac Coles an Capt William Witcher were Revolutionary War heroes from Virginia.
Chief Justice Marshall was also from Virginia and had ties to Bedford county.
Max Guggenheimer, Esq, served in the Confederate army, and was a well known Lynchberg merchant.
Rev Charles Clay, of Bedford, was a friend of Thomas Jefferson, and is buried Bedford's Ivey Hill Cemetery.
CSA Gen Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson died" in the 2nd year of the Confederate War".
For those who need a refresher on the Beale Papers:
The UnMuseum - The Beale Papers - Original Text

WELL DONE, ECS!

 

[Rebel - KGC]

I find it interesting that in the face of other theories you'll argue tooth and nail that the story was just a simple writing, yet on the other hand, and in favor of your own personal speculated theory, you'll argue tooth and nail that there was something more to the story. Again, bottom line is that there is absolutely nothing to support anything beyond a simple dime novel. All else has simply been created through the minds of men who want to believe that there must be something more to the tale, hence - it's all just simple lore that continues to feed the man made legend. Not one shred of evidence exist to support that the pamphlet was anything else. So why must there be a CSA connection of any kind? Is the entire story a CSA conspiracy just because there's one "very brief" reference to the second year of the confederate war? And from this one very brief reference an entire list of local unreferenced individuals must obviously be engrained in the mystery. How do you justify this logic? You know as well as I do that ten years from now history will still be repeating itself and that this mystery will still remain in the same state as it is today.

OBVIOUSLY, You DO NOT understand the "Story Within A Story" concept of CSA Secret Service "communication", post-CONFEDERATE WAR; WHAT do YOU have, on your "French Connection", eh...?

 

[bigscoop]

OBVIOUSLY, You DO NOT understand the "Story Within A Story" concept of CSA Secret Service "communication", post-CONFEDERATE WAR; WHAT do YOU have, on your "French Connection", eh...?

That's just it Reb, "there is no CSA secret service connection" that's part of the story, absolutely nothing at all other then speculation and wishful thinking. Show me a direct connection, that lone piece of solid evidence to prove otherwise? It can't be produced. Beale, Morriss, Ward, Clay, Jackson, Coles, Witcher, Marshall, Guggenheimer, these are the names mentioned in the pamphlet, so apparently you have proof that all of these men were CSA secret service so lets see that documented evidence. It's that easy, that's all you have to produce in order to establish the claim. Can't wait to see it. Problem is, that evidence simply doesn't exist other then in the creative minds of men.

 

[ECS]

... Beale, Morriss, Ward, Clay, Jackson, Coles, Witcher, Marshall, Guggenheimer, these are the names mentioned in the pamphlet, so apparently you have proof that all of these men were CSA secret service so lets see that documented evidence. It's that easy, that's all you have to produce in order to establish the claim...

Bigscoop, I posted who these men were, Jackson and Guggenheimer had a Confederate connection, Cole. Witcher, and Marshall a Revolutionary War connection, and Clay was a reverend who was friends with Thomas Jefferson.
According to the Beale Papers, five of these men visited and had dinner at Morriss's home, and one purchased the Morriss house.
What is your thought concerning the inclusion of these names in the Morriss portion of the Beale treasure story?

 

[ECS]

OBVIOUSLY, You DO NOT understand the "Story Within A Story" concept of CSA Secret Service "communication", post-CONFEDERATE WAR...

The story within the story is the "dime novel" aspect of Beale.
The Beale story is primarily about Bedford, with characters from Bedford county, copyrighted, printed, published by residents of Bedford county, and advertised and sold ONLY in Bedford county to those who would understand the story within the story.

 

[bigscoop]

Bigscoop, I posted who these men were, Jackson and Guggenheimer had a Confederate connection, Cole. Witcher, and Marshall a Revolutionary War connection, and Clay was a reverend who was friends with Thomas Jefferson.
According to the Beale Papers, five of these men visited and had dinner at Morriss's home, and one purchased the Morriss house.
What is your thought concerning the inclusion of these names in the Morriss portion of the Beale treasure story?

But there is no proof of a CSA/secret service conspiracy...none whatsoever....No proof whatsoever that anyone other then Ward had anything to do with the original story....absolutely no proof that it is anything other then a simple dime novel....all else has simply been manufactured in the creative minds of men after the fact. Applying the same logic one could easily start connecting any number of individuals that any of these men might have known, all it takes in doing so is a little unsupported imagination. In fact, we've already witnessed this with the inclusion of names like Hutter and others. It's just modern men creating completely unsupported scenarios, or unfounded theories. Issac Coles has a direct connection to James Monroe and "Clay" could have been in referenceton Henry Clay, shale we then include all of these possibilities as well as being accurate and fact? What we're seeing here is the grasping of favorite colored straws, nothing more. It's simply one unsupported tale generating the creation of others just like it. And yet there's not one shred of credible evidence to support any of it, not even the original tale. No proof whatsoever that any of the names mentioned in the original story had any knowledge at all in regards to the events outlined in the story, or that they had anything to do with that publication. All of this has simply been generated by modern man in his quest for the great Bedford easter egg.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Ah! So WHERE is the proof of YOUR "French Connection", then...?

 

[bigscoop]

Ah! So WHERE is the proof of YOUR "French Connection", then...?

You've evidently missed the multiple times that I've openly posted that my own personal theory is no different then any of the rest. In fact, in recent months I'm more inclined to believe that the entire story was nothing more then a simple dime novel written by Sherman with Ward as the representing agent. You look at Sherman's writing history and the Beale pamphlet fits into things perfectly. There's just no evidence of anything more, no matter where it's been looked for. After 125 years of searching by hundreds, if not thousands, of very capable people, this is the only fact that still stands on its own. That's the reality to the situation whether we like it or not. Not so much as a supported hint to the pamphlet being anything else anywhere.

 

[ECS]

Bigscoop, you keep missing the obvious fact that the Beale Papers WERE written for an 1885 Bedford county audience, that would recognize and know the names mentioned in the story, and MAKE whatever connection the included names implied.

 

[bigscoop]

Bigscoop, you keep missing the obvious fact that the Beale Papers WERE written for an 1885 Bedford county audience, that would recognize and know the names mentioned in the story, and MAKE whatever connection the included names implied.

No, I'm not missing your speculative point at all. Thousands of publications are marketed locally first, in fact until the advent of the internet I use to do this all the time myself. The hope being that you can sell enough locally to finance future sales on a broader scale or that the publication might get picked up and marketed by a large publisher. So you're assuming quite a bit in your "just locally" notion. I don't believe Sherman's other publications were marketed on a national level either, just locally because that's all he could afford. There was no internet in 1885 and no cheap means of circulation so producing to a local market first would have been the norm for small time authors. Up until recent times self publishing was a very expensive proposition, the author having to cover the cost of manufacturing, circulation and marketing, so local circulation and marketing was all that could be afforded. So no big surprise or mystery as to why the pamphlet was only advertised or circulated locally, pretty much a requirement unless the author was fairly well off, which Sherman/Ward wasn't. Given all of this the notion of localized marketing would have been expected norm.

 

[ECS]

What I find so interesting and so obvious in all of these local lore theories is the simple adopting of unrelated local resources themselves. As prime example of this local love connection it strikes me that none of this local love connection includes the names Jackson, Coles, Witcher, Clay, Marshall, all of these being names that are actually mentioned in the Beale pamphlet and therefore they can be directly connected to the tale...

Why do you think these names were included in the Beale story?

 

[bigscoop]

Why do you think these names were included in the Beale story?

Hard to say, could be they were used just to bring more credibility to the story? But if they were used for any other reason then one has to realize that these names were also prominent back in the described time period of 1817-1822. And again, it's only through speculation that you're choosing which Coles, Clay, Jackson, are being referenced. In the end it really has no bearing on the story unless you can discover documented evidence supporting the author's unknown reason for using the selected names and which references are being made. There are a lot of fictional stories that reference real local names/individuals so what evidence do you have to support that the Beale pamphlet was any different? Sadly, there is no such evidence to support anything other then a dime novel. You can ask me and a hundred other people why "we think" the author did this or that but our answers are the product of pure speculation and in no way should they be considered fact/accurate.

Unless you are the publisher the amount of ads that appeared for the pamphlet would have been quite costly for what you're suggesting, that being a publication intended for just a local market. On the other hand an editor/type setter could arrange things so that the required "free space" was available at virtually no cost. This supports the small time author/publisher notion, as does the limited distribution of the publication and everything else that goes along with it, such as marketing etc. I think it's pretty clear that this was a low budget affair. I mean, who is going to invest so much money into a publication that is only intended for limited local sales at almost a guaranteed financial loss? But if you can run free ad space, produce only enough pamphlets to meet the local demand, etc., then perhaps you might be able to realize a profit if the publication experienced good sales. But if the publication would experience good sales then you might generate enough profits and interest to expand your marketing efforts.

You know, producing an "authentic tale" that is actually fiction might also explain why the unknown author used an agent, to hide the liability of the lie. Have you considered this possibility?

 

[bigscoop]

You know, the other thing you have to consider is that the author is presenting you with "the key" that only supports one solution (the bait) with no hope of solution to the remaining two ciphers. Toss this on top of everything else and the entire thing smells of a simple work for entertainment, or fiction. I think all this also tells the real story behind the Beale pamphlet. "A simple dime novel that was written with the intention of luring people in and making some profits." It's a story that's been crafted to sound real enough with the promise of possible wealth to a lucky reader. The author installs an agent (Ward) to deflect attention away from himself and the deception. This explains why nobody has been able to turn up one single piece of supporting evidence to the story being anything else after 125 years of searching, and we're talking about a lot of smart, resourceful, and seasoned researchers......and yet nothing.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

You know, the other thing you have to consider is that the author is presenting you with "the key" that only supports one solution (the bait) with no hope of solution to the remaining two ciphers. Toss this on top of everything else and the entire thing smells of a simple work for entertainment, or fiction. I think all this also tells the real story behind the Beale pamphlet. "A simple dime novel that was written with the intention of luring people in and making some profits." It's a story that's been crafted to sound real enough with the promise of possible wealth to a lucky reader. The author installs an agent (Ward) to deflect attention away from himself and the deception. This explains why nobody has been able to turn up one single piece of supporting evidence to the story being anything else after 125 years of searching, and we're talking about a lot of smart, resourceful, and seasoned researchers......and yet nothing.

Dunno... it MAY have been found, and NOBODY'S talking. I heard/read somewhere, that a LAWYER (who MAY have utilized Vattel's LAW of NATION; "2nd Year of the CONFEDERATE WAR") to find it, and with the helper of a Banker/Broker, INVESTED it!

 

[bigscoop]

Dunno... it MAY have been found, and NOBODY'S talking. I heard/read somewhere, that a LAWYER (who MAY have utilized Vattel's LAW of NATION; "2nd Year of the CONFEDERATE WAR") to find it, and with the helper of a Banker/Broker, INVESTED it!

Just another tale. Look, I was once a hopeful believer myself but i really think when we step back and look at the reality of the situation it all spells a low budget dime novel with the intention to deceive the public for profit. The legend is larger then life, just like hundreds of other unfounded legends, but just like so many others and after all these years there's not even a hint of supporting evidence. So I'm of the mind that it's time to accept these cold hard facts and the likely reason for them. No doubt in my mind that this lack of supporting evidence will continue to be the case.

 

[ECS]

Hard to say, could be they were used just to bring more credibility to the story? But if they were used for any other reason then one has to realize that these names were also prominent back in the described time period of 1817-1822. And again, it's only through speculation that you're choosing which Coles, Clay, Jackson, are being referenced. In the end it really has no bearing on the story unless you can discover documented evidence supporting the author's unknown reason for using the selected names and which references are being made...

They had ties to Bedford county, except for CSA Gen Jackson, who once taught at VMI (reference to Hunter's Raid?), and died in the 2nd year of the Confederate War.
...but my speculation is no different than you connecting Lafitte to the Beale treasure because the names Ward and Sherman appear in Lafitte's memoirs.