Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[Oroblanco]

The Pit mine is also a pretty dangerous spot, if you go there BE CAREFUL not to fall in.

 

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[393stroker]

Some recent photo`s of the drift mine that is very near to the pit mine. The opening was mostly covered, and I had to crawl under the loose wall above and reach in with the camera.

 

[elgatodelnoche]

You had a great eye spotting that from the pit mine. I thought it was just a slide area. I like the ghost orbs too. I feel a lot better now that I have had some time to rest. What an experience that was!!! I try to tell my neighbor Gary about it and he is totally unimpressed. He seems to think that if something did not involve him it was unimportant and he could have done it better anyway. My throat is still sore from all the heavy breathing I did those two days, but man I have the memories!! I love how the spider guards the entrance!

 

[393stroker]

So having been to the pit mine, what`s your take? Do you think that it could be the LDM?

 

[sgtfda]

So having been to the pit mine, what`s your take? Do you think that it could be the LDM?

I can say the gold from the Pitt Mine has some copper content just like all the other Superstition gold ive seen from both sides of the mountain. The gold from the west side had a noticeable content. I suspect the match box ore did not come from the mountain. Like all prospectors im sure Waltz saved gold from different areas.

 

[elgatodelnoche]

I was skeptical, but then there was the drift tunnel and the stone foundations. I am leaning more towards it being the LDM now than I was before. There is no Picacho or needle anywhere near and I thought that was part of the locator map.

 

[goldleg]

Oroblanco, goldleg here: The pit mine is not the lost Dutchman mine. The mine is in boulder canyon . If going south in boulder canyon from second water keep an eye on the right side of the canyon wall about 20 feet high. You will see rock that is carved into the shape of a scroll or ribbon , this indicates you are at the site of the pit mine, You must find a way through the wall or go over the top to see the pit mine because its not visiable from the trail. Good luck Goldleg

 

[Oroblanco]

Oroblanco, goldleg here: The pit mine is not the lost Dutchman mine. The mine is in boulder canyon . If going south in boulder canyon from second water keep an eye on the right side of the canyon wall about 20 feet high. You will see rock that is carved into the shape of a scroll or ribbon , this indicates you are at the site of the pit mine, You must find a way through the wall or go over the top to see the pit mine because its not visiable from the trail. Good luck Goldleg

I never thought the Pit mine had anything to do with Jacob Waltz. I am firmly convinced the Pit mine is and was an old silver mine, which had hit a good pocket of gold. Several silver mines in the Superstitions have hit good pockets of gold, like the Silver King, Fortuna and the Pit mine can be added to the list.

However as you claim the LDM is in a specific spot, can you provide some kind of proof to support that statement, other than sending people off on a possible wild goose chase? Not trying to be a hard nose about things, just that a great number of people have already claimed to have found the LDM, in 100 different places and of course not one shows any gold, much less ore that might be compared to the matchbox or other specimens. Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco

 

[elgatodelnoche]

Here is some pit mine ore we managed to sneak past the ghosts. The whole time coming out I never saw a bit of black sand in the washes.

 

[Oroblanco]

Here is some pit mine ore we managed to sneak past the ghosts. The whole time coming out I never saw a bit of black sand in the washes.

Silver ore, image borrowed under Fair Use rules from
http://nevada-outback-gems.com/prospect/gold_specimen/Calico_silver_ore.jpg

 

[Oroblanco]

PS -Thank you Elgatodelnoche for posting the photos of the ore you found; to me it looks rather like silver ore but looks can be deceiving especially with silver ores, it very well could be gold ore. I have seen photos of other ore samples from the Pit mine, and examined some in hand, in my opinion it is a silver mine. However I am not a geologist just a prospector with some experience behind me, have examined a number of silver mines now trying to learn more.

I don't wish to break anyone's bubble, if they are convinced that the Pit mine is the LDM; however I do have reasons for not believing it is the LDM.

Firstly, most of the clues that will "Fit" the Pit mine, probably come from the Ludy brothers/Peralta story, which predates Jacob Waltz and involves a huge funnel-shaped pit, not to mention the tunnel driven below that. One version of the Ludy/Ludi/Ludy-Jacobs (a mistake due to one brother being named Jacob Ludy) has it that it was in fact a SILVER mine, not a gold mine. Pierpont C. Bicknell wrote of having found a large iron spoon at a camp site, which he took to be proof that he was close to Waltz's gold mine, but mentioned that there were signs of silver smelting being done there with some silver still remaining on the spoon and around. Bicknell did not make the connection, or rather the disconnect there.

Secondly, there were and are over 30 different silver mines located in that rather small district, no gold mines. At least two of these mines had both a shaft and a tunnel below, which is not all that unusual for mines. While it is certainly possible, even promising, for a gold mine to be in an area with SO many silver mines, finding an old mine there would be at least 30 to 1 odds that it is a silver mine and NOT a gold mine. The Pit has been proposed to be the Silver Chief, and a fair case presented that it is NOT The Silver Chief; however do we have the exact locations of all the other 31 known silver mines in that district? Unfortunately, no - I had a plat of the claims but can't find it or would try to post that which might help a little, and then again it might not help as miners were known to deliberately write the wrong locations on their claim forms, knowing that the law takes the markers/monuments on the ground as legally superior to any written directions, for the understandable reasons that they did not want claimjumpers encroaching on their claims.

Thirdly, a look at old reports of the mining activities of the Randolph/Rogers/Pine (the district was known by several names over the years) will turn up that the prospectors were finding good silver deposits, and in some of the mines, found good pockets of gold especially at depth.

Good luck and good hunting to you all amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[sgtfda]

The Blue Sky was right where that claim map showed it would be.

 

[cactusjumper]

PS -Thank you Elgatodelnoche for posting the photos of the ore you found; to me it looks rather like silver ore but looks can be deceiving especially with silver ores, it very well could be gold ore. I have seen photos of other ore samples from the Pit mine, and examined some in hand, in my opinion it is a silver mine. However I am not a geologist just a prospector with some experience behind me, have examined a number of silver mines now trying to learn more.

I don't wish to break anyone's bubble, if they are convinced that the Pit mine is the LDM; however I do have reasons for not believing it is the LDM.

Firstly, most of the clues that will "Fit" the Pit mine, probably come from the Ludy brothers/Peralta story, which predates Jacob Waltz and involves a huge funnel-shaped pit, not to mention the tunnel driven below that. One version of the Ludy/Ludi/Ludy-Jacobs (a mistake due to one brother being named Jacob Ludy) has it that it was in fact a SILVER mine, not a gold mine. Pierpont C. Bicknell wrote of having found a large iron spoon at a camp site, which he took to be proof that he was close to Waltz's gold mine, but mentioned that there were signs of silver smelting being done there with some silver still remaining on the spoon and around. Bicknell did not make the connection, or rather the disconnect there.

Secondly, there were and are over 30 different silver mines located in that rather small district, no gold mines. At least two of these mines had both a shaft and a tunnel below, which is not all that unusual for mines. While it is certainly possible, even promising, for a gold mine to be in an area with SO many silver mines, finding an old mine there would be at least 30 to 1 odds that it is a silver mine and NOT a gold mine. The Pit has been proposed to be the Silver Chief, and a fair case presented that it is NOT The Silver Chief; however do we have the exact locations of all the other 31 known silver mines in that district? Unfortunately, no - I had a plat of the claims but can't find it or would try to post that which might help a little, and then again it might not help as miners were known to deliberately write the wrong locations on their claim forms, knowing that the law takes the markers/monuments on the ground as legally superior to any written directions, for the understandable reasons that they did not want claimjumpers encroaching on their claims.

Thirdly, a look at old reports of the mining activities of the Randolph/Rogers/Pine (the district was known by several names over the years) will turn up that the prospectors were finding good silver deposits, and in some of the mines, found good pockets of gold especially at depth.

Good luck and good hunting to you all amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Roy,

[Joe Ribaudo

Post subject: History Posted: Tue Feb 24, 2004 11:15 pm

Expert Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm Posts: 5223

S.C., Nice post. I think you will search a long time looking for "Jacobs and Ludi" in the California Volunteers. You may want to try looking for two brothers named, Charles and Jacob Ludi instead. Hell of a coincidence. Try to find rosters for, 2 Battalion Mo. S. M. Cav. Charles was a Private and Jacob was a Corporal in the Union Army. I would be interested if you find anything. Aurum, Dr. Glover and Peter may want to rattle their own sources for information on these brothers. Respectfully, Joe Ribaudo] I first researched the Ludi brothers back in 2004. I posted most of what I found on the LDM Forum. Other's, including yourself contributed to that topic. Take care, Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

While others had researched this the subject before me, none had any inkling of Jacob and Charles Ludi, as far as I know. Anyone wanting to do any research should start, IMHO, with the Ludi......Brothers.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Not Peralta]

Here ya go stroker for a start.
These are a few that I have. I will look for more if I have them on my pc.
Thought I had some german ones also.

On a hill east of the Burns Ranch there is a ruins,
Lost Dutchman Mine up top, above the Cheryl Anne [15]

He buried the bar at his Deity mining claim.

1. The mine is in the mountains, to the east where the Weaver's

Needle is.

2. If you followed the shadow of Weaver's Needle at 4:00 o'clock,

you could find the mine.

3. The mine lies within a five-mile radius of Weaver's Needle.

4. If I climb a little way, I can see the tip of Weaver's Needle.

5. The mine is in a north-south trending canyon in a gorge

running east and west.

6. The mine is at the junction of two canyons.

7. It is in a gorge high up on a mountain.

8. I can see the military trail below.

9. You can see my mine from the cave but you cannot see the cave

from my mine.

10. The afternoon sun shines into my mine and illuminates the

gold.

11. My mine is in a chimney formation.

12. My mine is a funnel-shaped pit with the large end up.

13. The ore is an 18-inch vein of rose quartz bearing one-third

gold.

14. Below the mine is a tunnel that Don Miguel Peralta started,

but he did not do any work on it. Neither did we. The ore was

of a low grade.

15. You cannot find anything until you find the "Little Man".

16. After you have located the "Little Man", continue up canyon

until you find what appears to be a great cave with a two room

house inside.

17. Across from this cave with the "rock house" is my mine.

18. There is a great face that looks up to my mine. This face is in a

rock formation.

19. There are three pines nearby.
20. There is a burro's head that looks down at my mine.

21. There is a horse's head near the mine.

22. There is a stripped ironwood tree with a rock in the crotch of

the branch that points to my mine.

23. I buried my mine from all miners so that no miner will ever

find it.

24. The old Spanish Trail goes right to the mine.

25. If you go beyond the three red hills, you have gone too far.

26. My cave faces north.

27. I watered my burros at the old water hole.

28. If you find Wiser's grave, you have found my mine.

29. I left the largest of three caches and removed the two smaller

ones.

30. All I have to do is pick up the gold.
1. The Dutchman entered the Superstitions by way of Queen

Creek or Whitlow Stage Road.

2. He always bought his supplies in Florence.

3. He reported Wiser's death first in Florence.

4. His partner had been a carpenter in Florence.

5. Walz was followed by many to the vicinity of Randolph and

Fraser Canyons, where he eluded them.

6. He often stayed in one of the "lugares" or a one room house

located at the junction of Red tanks, Randolph and Fraser

Canyons.

7. The Dutchman and Wiser were seen coming out of the

mountains by way of the Whitlow Stage Road with six heavily

laden burros accompanied by two Mexicans on at least five

occasions.
8. The old Spanish Trail, as well as a branch of the old military

trail, comes over the Red Tanks Divide, around Randolph

Canyon and then through Whitlow.

9. Most of the old Dutchman hunters looked in the eastern part of

the mountains. These people had more current data to go by.

10. The Dutchman always had a red stain on the knees of his

trousers that would not come out when Julia Thomas washed

them.

roadrunner,On a hill east of burns ranch, there is a ruins, lost Dutchman mine on top, above the Cheryl anne 15, Is this part of the clues you have? If you go to the east side of burns ranch and can follow the old fence line down by the wash there was a very old saguaro with many arms, and it is surrounded by other saguaro's in a circle, it is marked by these carved symbols, these symbols were also found in other areas in and out of the mnts, just thought I could help. np

 

[roadrunner]

Thanks, yes it is one of the clues that has been posted.
Do not remember where I read it.

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

While others had researched this the subject before me, none had any inkling of Jacob and Charles Ludi, as far as I know. Anyone wanting to do any research should start, IMHO, with the Ludi......Brothers.

Take care,

Joe

I don't have a bone to pick with anything you posted, except that one word, and that conditionally. Namely, the "Brothers" Ludi. There is quite an age difference in the two men, as listed on their military documents, which does not mean they are not brothers, but could be cousins, father and son, or, (brace yourself) uncle and nephew. And therein, perhaps, lays the root of the "nephew" story! Thanks for posting that too BTW, I have let my subscription to Fold3 lapse and just got a new computer a few days ago so have not transferred everything over to it yet. Procrastination being one of my strongest attributes! Anyway if memory serves there is some 18 years age difference between the two Ludi men, which is a lot for brothers but not impossible either.

I hope all is well with you, thanks again,
Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

I don't have a bone to pick with anything you posted, except that one word, and that conditionally. Namely, the "Brothers" Ludi. There is quite an age difference in the two men, as listed on their military documents, which does not mean they are not brothers, but could be cousins, father and son, or, (brace yourself) uncle and nephew. And therein, perhaps, lays the root of the "nephew" story! Thanks for posting that too BTW, I have let my subscription to Fold3 lapse and just got a new computer a few days ago so have not transferred everything over to it yet. Procrastination being one of my strongest attributes! Anyway if memory serves there is some 18 years age difference between the two Ludi men, which is a lot for brothers but not impossible either.

I hope all is well with you, thanks again,
Roy

Roy,

Just realized I didn't reply to this post. Sorry!

I like your uncle/nephew theory. It certainly fits into the LDM legend. I would think there would be a paper trail to these guys.......somewhere, beyond what I already found.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

Just realized I didn't reply to this post. Sorry!

I like your uncle/nephew theory. It certainly fits into the LDM legend. I would think there would be a paper trail to these guys.......somewhere, beyond what I already found.

Take care,

Joe

Yeah there is.

 

[cactusjumper]

Yeah there is.

Roy,

So.......Ya going to tell me about the paper trail I haven't found......or what?

Take care,

Joe