Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?

[vastterrain]

.

Also, it begs the question: if no miner can find it, then how did Waltz find it? Or, if he stole it from Mexicans, how did they find it?

Simple....natives were all over these mountains, Mexicans/Spaniards locating and looking for gold/silver - One native shows up with gold and you "convince them" that its in there best interest to tell you the location!

 

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[Springfield]

Simple....natives were all over these mountains, Mexicans/Spaniards locating and looking for gold/silver - One native shows up with gold and you "convince them" that its in there best interest to tell you the location!

That's the sort of detail that would definitely enhance and help rationalize the legend, wouldn't it?

 

[sgtfda]

Roy it would make sense that Waltz would search in a mineralized area of the mountain rather than a barren area. He was a prospector.

 

[roadrunner]

That is another one Oro.
If I where on a mountain, I could easily see a trail,road,wash,buggy track,2 track,mule track,ect.
But yet on this same track or trail or wash,I could never see a 2 foot square opening,behind a bush,on a mountain. Even if out in the open, it could look like a shadow.
Another riddle to confuse and tease.

Although it would suggest as to how close you should be to see it. Or high enough.

 

[roadrunner]

Yup,exactly as I suggested. No mine can be seen in that pic.
But,I bet I can see the wash down towards the lower right in the pic that is not showing.
But from the wash,I could not see anything.
I will go there shortly and find it.

But, in that pic I would say the center of the pic where the little clump of boulders is, or below center,just above the brush line where the other set of boulders are. Or the right hand side of both of these boulder spots.
But good point. A person could be standing close to a mine, and not see it.

 

[somehiker]

Simple....natives were all over these mountains, Mexicans/Spaniards locating and looking for gold/silver - One native shows up with gold and you "convince them" that its in there best interest to tell you the location!

While I'm sure things like that happened, especially in Waltz's day, I tend towards the "Waltz hears miners breaking rock and jumps their claim" version as a good one. That the "mine" itself was shaped like a funnel....(looking down into it) , and like an hourglass... (cross section), with one chamber above the other, should also be considered IMO. The inclined tunnel which was supposed to intersect the "mine" itself should be there as well, at least partly blocked up with rocks as per Waltz's description. If the "mine" (that which he said he covered with ironwood logs and dirt) is also located on a steeply sloping ledge on a box canyon wall, it would also make sense that the miners may have thrown the ore down to the bottom for further reduction.....(breaking rock). If so, there may still be evidence of this operation and possibly some gold to be found there. This detail might also fit the Doc Thorne description.

Would you be up to checking this out? Go to the very end of the "box" where we were watching the coyote in the cave. You will see a sloping ledge going down from right to left, from the top almost to the bottom. The ledge ends below and to the right of the "teepee" mark. From the "camp" with the old ironwoods you may be able to see some letters above the ledge, about halfway down. Might be worth checking out the area below the lower end of that ledge. But I doubt you'll want to do the ledge itself....

 

[Cubfan64]

Here's another photograph taken from the ridge top just above looking down towards where the pit mine is located... Wish I had had time to fight my way down through the brush to it, but had to get out and catch a plane. Hard to believe that was 5 years ago already!! Man, I need to move to AZ.

It still amazes me to look at a photo like this because unless you experience trying to move around in that sort of environment, it looks like it should just be a casual stroll down through some brush to the location down below. Unfortunately, when you're there and really try it, you literally have to fight for every 10 feet in some cases. It can take hours to get somewhere you'd swear you could have thrown a rock to!!

 

[cactusjumper]

Here's another photograph taken from the ridge top just above looking down towards where the pit mine is located... Wish I had had time to fight my way down through the brush to it, but had to get out and catch a plane. Hard to believe that was 5 years ago already!! Man, I need to move to AZ.

It still amazes me to look at a photo like this because unless you experience trying to move around in that sort of environment, it looks like it should just be a casual stroll down through some brush to the location down below. Unfortunately, when you're there and really try it, you literally have to fight for every 10 feet in some cases. It can take hours to get somewhere you'd swear you could have thrown a rock to!!

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Paul,

As I have said before......When XXXXX finally broke free of the brush surrounding the Pit Mine, he almost fell into the shaft. Eventually he returned to the site and went into the mine. It had been cleaned out. You have all seen the pictures he took inside.

It still remains a possibility that Waltz's mine was actually a cache, left there by someone else. He took what he needed and was afraid to do more. Who knew when the original owners might return. Who knows why it was left there, and never recovered by those who left it there. Death is the most obvious answer.

All of the "clues" attributed to Jacob Waltz are suspect. I believe most of them were created to cause total confusion and lead people away from the truth, much like what some of people who post on these sites are still doing today.

In any case, I wish you the best in what you are seeking. "Let the search become your destination"......or something like that.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul,

As I have said before......When Dave finally broke free of the brush surrounding the Pit Mine, he almost fell into the shaft. Eventually he returned to the site and went into the mine. It had been cleaned out. You have all seen the pictures he took inside.

It still remains a possibility that Waltz's mine was actually a cache, left there by someone else. He took what he needed and was afraid to do more. Who knew when the original owners might return. Who knows why it was left there, and never recovered by those who left it there. Death is the most obvious answer.

All of the "clues" attributed to Jacob Waltz are suspect. I believe most of them were created to cause total confusion and lead people away from the truth, much like what some of people who post on these sites are still doing today.

In any case, I wish you the best in what you are seeking. "Let the search become your destination"......or something like that.

Take care,

Joe

Joe, my gut tells me the pit mine isn't/wasn't the LDM, but I wonder if it's the "adventurer" in me that wants to believe that. That said, there's nothing in what you posted that I can reasonably argue against, and some that answers a few questions about Waltz's sources of gold.

I'll keep going out there and looking, but I honestly haven't ever really been looking for the LDM - sometimes I wonder what I'm actually looking for out there, and you're right, that maybe it's just the search . I can't think of a better place to search - I feel like a kid again when I'm out there, and who knows, maybe... just maybe, there's still going to be something over that next rise... or over the next one... or....

I think all of you here know what I mean.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Cubber, may you never grow up !! Never lose that dream.,of course it must be modified to meet actualities, but remember "Treasure Island is just over that way, beyond the blue horizon.

Without dreams, Man is just another ant.

Don jose de La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

...It still amazes me to look at a photo like this because unless you experience trying to move around in that sort of environment, it looks like it should just be a casual stroll down through some brush to the location down below. Unfortunately, when you're there and really try it, you literally have to fight for every 10 feet in some cases. It can take hours to get somewhere you'd swear you could have thrown a rock to!!

My credo is always, "Travel light," but if you can't find an open path and you're determined to fight your way through the buck brush, there's a choice to make: 1) beat yourself half to death; 2) carry a pair of pruning loppers to greatly facilitate your progress. Get the kind with the telescoping handles.

... sometimes I wonder what I'm actually looking for out there, and you're right, that maybe it's just the search

. I can't think of a better place to search - ...

That's what Pedro de Castaneda said too, following the Coronado Expedition: "Granted that they did not find the riches of which they had been told, they found a place in which to search for them." At least when you return home you won't fare as poorly as Coronado did.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ladies & Gentlemen: somewhere I have a picture of a mine shaft, I will look for it. the shaft exits in plain sight, but no where is there any sign of the excavated barren rock. Where is it? As a result, during the rainy season, it is quite dangerous since two or three steps out of the surrounding brush and your life expectancy is greatly shortened = long way down with no way back up if somehow you survive the entry.

If it was in the states I wonder how many quads would be / are are at the bottom with their drivers??

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[vastterrain]

While I'm sure things like that happened, especially in Waltz's day, I tend towards the "Waltz hears miners breaking rock .

Would you be up to checking this out? Go to the very end of the "box" where we were watching the coyote in the cave. You will see a sloping ledge going down from right to left, from the top almost to the bottom. The ledge ends below and to the right of the "teepee" mark. From the "camp" with the old ironwoods you may be able to see some letters above the ledge, about halfway down. Might be worth checking out the area below the lower end of that ledge. But I doubt you'll want to do the ledge itself....

"The Mexican miners that Waltz jumped" That is what i tend towards as far as how Waltz got it- I was saying the Mexicans and most likely Spaniards/Jesuits before them probably first discovered the gold with the help of natives.

"Would you be up to checking this out?" Was up in there when you an frank went around the back side of the mountain that day.....Yep will go in at some point an poke around again and take you some good pictures of the whole ledge.

 

[sgtfda]

Mining Map of Arizona from 1881. A close up of the mineralized area east of the mountain. The map shows most well know areas in Az at the time. A simple question? Why would you spend years searching a barren area of the mountain where nothing much has ever been found. Waltz who was not on his death bed when he told his friend Frank the mine was off Pinto creek near Iron mountain. Waltz wanted Frank to partner with him. Two stories. One from a man in his prime asking a fellow German for help. Or one from a old sick afraid man needing care on his death bed. Time for a new set of clues don't you think. Ill go with Waltz the prospector clues. Clues that lead into a area with gold and silver. Lots of it.

 

[sgtfda]

How many years has it been debated where the LDM may be located. We now have a possible location. I must admit I'm a bit disappointed a group has not attempted to search the Pitt area (not for gold) for artifacts that may indicate this is a possible site of the LDM. Anyone who has spent time at a site will leave items behind. Does not mater if it is the Spanish, Mexicans or Waltz. The items can be dated. It's apparent this Pitt was worked over the years by different groups. It is reported the Pitt was covered with logs under dirt. Are the logs still at the site? Was anything ever found near the base camp area. Did anyone ever bother to look. Someone that knows what they are doing with a good detector can find these items. I should know I've done it in the past. What about other hidden cache sites. I know Jack found one where the rocks had been put back in place. I've heard there are those who went over the mine dump with detectors. From what I've seen of the samples a regular detector won't pick up the rock contents. A Falcon will. That is what they were designed for. A hidden cache. I have a one of a kind heavily modded Minelab and a 25" coil that will pick up a truck engine at 12 ft. I was using the Minelab to go over a 6 foot pile of quartz with a 6" coil and picked up a ammo can at 6 foot Now I know the area is covered with heavy brush. In some spots this would need to be cleared first. I hate that type brush. Snake heaven. I've seen rattlers up in that type brush waiting to snag a bird.
I just find the whole thing very odd. I know at least most of you are not arm chair Thunters. True some are old and some live in other areas. Some have been to the site. What about the rest of you? Perhaps it's time for a new expedition.

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

iron mountain burned up back in 1967 or so...big fire...the brush moved in after the oak and other fauna burned off.wasn't all that difficult to move about in before then...

 

[cactusjumper]

iron mountain burned up back in 1967 or so...big fire...the brush moved in after the oak and other fauna burned off.wasn't all that difficult to move about in before then...

Donald,

Iron Mountain is not the location of the Pit Mine.

Hope you had a good Thanksgiving.

Take care,

Joe

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

ok..but the big fire burned the area around iron mountain...
perhaps i should drive down an go look at this pit. use my education for something beside boring dutch hunters at dinner
above rogers trough?

 

[sgtfda]

My old 3-D topo program shows it W of a Iron mountain map reference. Yes I'm working up a map for the location just in case I can get a group off their ass for the next episode of the naked prospector. Or in this case the naked Dutch hunter. I have producer friends from gold show Alaska and they may have a interest. We will need some popcorn girls though to maintain interest in the show. Ill bring a extra big sleeping bag in case they get cold!

 

[roadrunner]

Somero and I are in. He has a 4X4 pick up.
I have a Garrett groundhog,7.5 coil and 10.5 coil, and a Goldmaster V/sat.
We can go up light at first with no Mds if ya want.
Somero and I where in the area last month.

Somero you in?