Indian hut site?

[ghost surf]

A friend of mine lives a mile south from a tall hill in Lindsey,WI. We found a spot in her back woods where there are rocks that surround a split V shape tree with a toom stone looking round rock on one side with carved holes in it.We had a guy who studies Indian archeology who says it could be where a hut may have been and the rocks where used for holding the side down.He also says it may be a barreal spot..but is not sure.I have a picture of them around the tree standing where the rocks are situated.She lives sort of on a hill and there is water on one side of that hill.If you stand in the middle the area would be a perfect spot for a Indian village or camp spot and there are other V shape tree's that follow a straight line back to the hill area I spoke of.What do you think?

O

O V C O

O

There is also a sitting stone just not to far from there, stuck between two close trees.

This is how the stones circle the V shaped tree and the C stands for the circular stone which stands up like a toom stone.The grass does not even grow in the spot.
I am going to do some detecting in the fall.Also a lady who lives down from her says she found a 33,000 year old Spear head that was certified by a lab in a museum in Milwaukee.

 

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[gldhntr]

i had a site listed with the state archeologist in nc several years back where we found many stone artifacts dated to between 15,000 and 18,000 years ago by the same state arckie...there is a chance they traveled through wisconsin on their way here.....barry fell in his book ''america b.c.'' tells of the ancient ones...........gldhntr

 

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[ghost surf]

Yes
Alright!!! Someone who knows about the Ancient Ones!!!
Well anyway...
Thanks Gold Hunter!

 

[deepsix47]

Hi Cannonman17,

The rock pictures on here if you skroll down a few ways,Is the middle greenish rock a preform? I found it in a field where a Indian village was at one time and it was the only one out of a 160 acre field I could find.there is a broken rounded edge.This rock looks just like a preform in a book I have at home and the edges are all sharp also etc the straight part on the bottom.Is this a scrapper?

Oh yes ..when I mentioned carved rocks ..what I meant was rocks that looked like they where in water and the water carved them..Not man made carvings...The rock that is sitting just below the circle is a rock that shouldn't even be there because non of the others have that water carved look..It's hard to explain...We where just wondering how that rock fits with everything up in her woods.The sitting stone is about 3 feet long and 2-1/2 deep and it is stuck between two trees like a place for sitting or sacrificing something and it sits over near the water like a watch out tower or something..Jeff said it definitely was used by someone and he said it looked more toward that of something used by the Indians.There is what we think is a possible fire pit that Betty found,it has rocks circling the whole spot..There is another tree that has rocks circling the bottom Jeff did not see that one its over by that pit.Maybe we are hoping for a miracle here, I still think it's strange that these rocks are all situated so funny and no-one she spoke to says any one lived there other then her neighbor and the one she bought the place from...and he says he doesn't know about the rock formations. She will be digging this next Tuesday as they are going to start building a house...I will keep you in tune as to what is found and I will be doing my metal detecting also!
Lets keep our fingers crossed!

Make sure you screen all of the material coming out of the "fire pit". Otherwise their are many small items that may be missed. You need to know exactly what is in their to help you identify the site accurately. Screens are easy and cheap to build.
Deepsix

 

[ghost surf]

To deepsix47,

I know about that part where people say there is nothing to find....

You should see me when I do my metal detecting..I went last year to the Mid State Metal detecting championships and there was this one guy that ask me because I was a new by, If i had what it takes to metal detect..So I gave my $40.00 for my entry fee and went in two rounds and found 8 dollars the first time in there, three walking liberty's and a hand full of silver dimes,wheat pennies and two of there special finds, but they where not the ones that won you gifts...I think for being as nervous as I was when he asked what I found ..I think he learned his lesson he said "Good finds man!!" and he did not find much of anything! And I was only giving half a show at that time!Never challenges me because... I will do the challenge!
Not to mention when I had a couple of jerks say I was stupid and laughed cause I did not graduate even though I did Finnish school..I went back and in 2 years got my G.E.D. and the H.S.Diploma both! I was challenged at a horse show riding an Arab and made a gal with a quarter horse look silly, I did not win a prize, but she couldn't even get her so called trained purebred to go through the gate.
Well! I may not seem big with the experts, but watch out, cause I am like a Nascar driver and I don't like losing!I am a "Walt Disney" believer and supporter and follower!

Ya! I may not win big .... but I laugh a lot at those who get knocked down by their own words.

 

[Cannonman17]

Gldhntr- There has been a few archaeologist in the past decade who have claimed they got carbon dates from fire hearths in the 15,000- 20,000 range but none have been accepted as being accurate. The most recent one that I know of was from a cave in the Eastern U.S. (I can't remember the name of the site rite now) They claimed to have some "pre-clovis" period carbon dates but the problem was the cave was on the bottom of a ridge that had extensive mining operations and it's believed that run off from the mining contaminated the site. There has been a number of other claims to... I don't personally think that it's impossible but I am still waiting for proof over the speculation. There are solid "proof" examples of the clovis culture along with carbon dates from all over the country- these also correspond with there being an ice-free corridor leading from Asia to N. Amercia durring the last ice age. There are dozens of these known sites and their artifacts are fairly common (common here is a relative term) but as for a pre-clovs tradition there still is absolutely no hard evidence. For somebody to have artifacts on their land dating from 15,000 - 20,000 years ago there would have had to have been a migration from Asia to N. America durring the previous glaciation (approximately 20,000 B.P.) or possibly a secondary costal migration (but that's a whole nother story!) Out of curriosity I'm wondering why the archaelogist thought you had that old of a site on your land- was it from found artifacts or from carbon dating? If it was from artifacts I would love to see what you have- maybe you could post them? If it turns out to be true we will have to completely re-write the known pre history of N. America and you will have one of the, if not the most important archaeological sites of all time on your land.

Ghost- Deepsix's advice on sifting the potential fire pit (in fact anything you dig in the area) is really good advice. There can be millions of tiny clues in the soil if one just looks for them. Keep a sharp eye out for bone fragments, chips, flakes, seeds, mussel shells, teeth, charcoal, pottery fragments, etc. As far as the remainder of your post.. I don't see the pics- did you post new ones that I'm just not seeing or are you referring to the ones on top? In terms of rocks that don't look like they belong there... I'm trying to picture the area that it's in- (wether or not it was glaciated or not) I believe you are far enough north that this site should be in the glaciated area- if not it would have been on the outwash plain, it either case you can expect to find the unexpected in these areas. The glaciers carried rocks looonnngg distances. The carved or water worn rock that you talk about may very well be a water worn boulder, and indeed look out of place on a hill top in the middle of nowhere but placed there by the glacier. Just as another example- I found a piece of float copper today metal detecting- the closest copper deposits that I know of are quite a ways North from here. Even stranger one could point out that I live in the driftless area (wasn't covered by the last glacier but was part of the outwash plain when it melted) so this little piece of float copper was brought down by the last glacier melted and was deposited on the outwash plain. (The Green Bay lobe of the last glacier actually went farther South than where I live but it was to the East of here. When a glacier advances it does so with finger like extentions, not a straight wall like one might imagine. One lobe of the last glacier stopped to the north of here (just North of the Steven Point area somewhere ((I would have to look on a map to point it out)) and the other lobe ran along the Eastern edge of the county.) All I'm trying to say I guess is that the rocks you see that look out of place may have a natural explanation.
As far as the sitting rock I don't know... I would like to see some closer pictures. It is possible that the "ancient ones" put it there but that would not be my first guess. I have seen rocks pushed up by developing trees- is this a possibility? Jeff said it was definately used- why? (NO, I'm not being a smart a@@ again, I'm serious- is there signs of wear/usage because that could tell a lot about it) Hey- I'm going to get you to start looking at things in a scientific/critical maner vs. speculative if it's the last thing I do!! I guess I will need some pics and/or more info to make an informed guess on this one.

That mid-state metal detecting competition sure sound like fun... I'm going to have to go to that next year one way or another... you said you found 8 dollars- do they plant silvr dollars too?? That would be cool.. although finding the dimes would be neat too.. is it crowded? I wouldn't want to be metal detecting elbow to elbow with people. How big of an area do they hide the stuff in?

Well, I will be very much looking forward to more posts on what you find.. I will be keeping my fingers crossed, hope you come up with some nice spear points or something.. Need more pictures too!
Good luck!

 

[Cannonman17]

I just wanted to mention something that I forgot to add in the first part of my last post to Gldhntr- over the past few years there has been a number of claims for a pre-clovis culture that have NOT been dissproved yet either... there is one site in S. American coming up with some really old carbon dates that nobody has an explanation for but there isn't any definate "artifacts" associated with the supposed fire pit either so it could be nothing more than the remains of an old forrest fire but.... there's another similar site off the the N.W. coast on an island too.. an island that wouldn't have been an island during the last glaciation, it would have been part of the coast. Actually it would have been part of the coast during the last two glaciations.
I should also mention that linguistics supports the idea of multiple migrations. Of all the hundreds upon hundreds of Native Amercian languages that have been recorded in the Americas they can all be classified into three distinct groups (supports the idea that there have been three different migrations OR three different speaking groups during the last glaciation) The groups are Siouxian, Iniuit, and Algonquin. All the Norther most tribes (in the artic circle) speak a Iniuit type language, all the tribes East of the Mississippi with the sole exception of the Ho-Chunk or Winnebago, speak Algonquin and all the remainder including those of the far South speak a form of Siouxian. (I have No idea if I spelled those languages right- I know how to pronounce them but don't remember how to spell them)
sorry for being so long winded, I have tons of useless knowledge just waiting for an excuse to spill out..

 

[gord]

I just wanted to mention something that I forgot to add in the first part of my last post to Gldhntr- over the past few years there has been a number of claims for a pre-clovis culture that have NOT been dissproved yet either... there is one site in S. American coming up with some really old carbon dates that nobody has an explanation for but there isn't any definate "artifacts" associated with the supposed fire pit either so it could be nothing more than the remains of an old forrest fire but.... there's another similar site off the the N.W. coast on an island too.. an island that wouldn't have been an island during the last glaciation, it would have been part of the coast. Actually it would have been part of the coast during the last two glaciations.

So are they finally going to pay some honest attention to the lady's 230,000 y/o fire pit? Good.
Gord

 

[gldhntr]

in response to a question here, i will get you the site info and you can check the info/site yourself....as far as relics go, at this point i have 2. one is a petrified seed about the size of a small lima bean screened from one of 4 firepits on the site..the other is a arrowhead blank of purple/white intermingled stone{forget the name} only available in one small area of one county in south carolina, about 200 or so miles from this site. nowhere else can it be found....it was found along with many other blanks in a cache on the site...unfortunantly the whole rest of my collection was stolen from a friends basement as i was moving from one house to another....my brother still has many arrowheads and such from this site, and i will post pics of them as soon as i visit him again......the archeologist said the site had been inhabited from around 18,500 years ago till around 350 years ago...the site was dated by the n.c. state archeologist after veiwing the 200-250 artifacts we had found which included many arrowheads ranging from 4 inches to less than 2/3 inch long, along with pottery shards, a couple spearpoints, drill awls, hide scrapers, hand knifes, a pipe {rock},petrified and fossilized items, etc, and many quarrying tools as a large above ground vein of chert was very near the campsite...the state archeologist was {and still is} deloris hall in raliegh n.c.....the site is in guilford county off eversfield road outside of stokesdale n.c. along the haw river ...ms. hall informed us that had we approached her a bit sooner she could have stopped the major gas line that now crosses part of the site.........i will post the site id # as soon as i can relocate it so you can check into it yourself ,.....................gldhntr

 

[deepsix47]

Come on guys....play nice. Debate is good but ridicule and name calling leads at best to bad feelings and those are counterproductive. The fact is, archeology is not an exacting science. Much of what was theorized 100 years ago is thought of in a different light today based on new discoveries. How long was it that the so called "banner stone" went until we actually knew what it had been used for. New finds are being made continually, most fit the current trains of thought. There are those however that don't fit and raise questions. There are yet others that seem to have been pushed aside because they seem to outwardly contradict present theories. This is not the fault of the archaeological community in general but only a few closed minds in particular. In many instances, with such finds, it seems to be much easier to simply push them aside and forget them because with our present knowledge they defy explanation, or do they? Keep an open mind, ask questions, if something doesn't seem to add up, redo the math. You might be the one to come up with the answers.
Deepsix

 

[gldhntr]

okay i will....rescinding now...........g

 

[Atlantis0077]

Afternoon,

Very well said Deepsix. I couldnt agree more.

Atlantis

 

[gord]

The fact is, archeology is not an exacting science. Much of what was theorized 100 years ago is thought of in a different light today based on new discoveries. How long was it that the so called "banner stone" went until we actually knew what it had been used for. New finds are being made continually, most fit the current trains of thought. There are those however that don't fit and raise questions. There are yet others that seem to have been pushed aside because they seem to outwardly contradict present theories. This is not the fault of the archaeological community in general but only a few closed minds in particular.

Maybe it's time for everybody to (re-)read Motel Of The Mysteries (1979) by David MacAuley (if you can find a copy somewhere)?
Gord

 

[Cannonman17]

Gldhntr- I look forward to checking it out...if at any point in conversations with me I come off as being a rude #%#$ just ignore it- I can't help it and don't mean it. (Kind of an apology in advance) As far as your site- the older layers must have been farther down, a lot farther down, because the bow and arrow (and arrowheads) as well as pottery were not invented until Rougly 2500 years ago- (that's a fact that is accepted by pretty much everybody) Too bad to hear that stuff was stold... Can't stand thieves! How far down did they excavate at your site?

 

[gldhntr]

funny how arrowheads were only invented around 2500 years ago but in 1927 one was found at wild horse gulch near folsom new mexico embedded in the rib bone of an ice age bison...the bone being partially healed over the spearpoint....if i am not mistaken the last ice age ended between 9000 and 14000 years ago, which puts the date back a bit i would think...

 

[deepsix47]

funny how arrowheads were only invented around 2500 years ago but in 1927 one was found at wild horse gulch near folsom new mexico embedded in the rib bone of an ice age bison...the bone being partially healed over the spearpoint....if i am not mistaken the last ice age ended between 9000 and 14000 years ago, which puts the date back a bit i would think...

Hi GH: Actually, wasen't that find an Atlatl point (I'm not positive but I think it was)? They and spear points were around long before the actual "arrowhead". I do agree though that the bow and arrow reaches back a bit further then 2500 years.

 

[gldhntr]

also i think it has been proven that paleo people from asia travelled to australia across the sea around 40000 years ago...being as part of america is still at times visable from the bering area it wouldn't be too far fetched to think they might have travelled here also.........radiocarbon dating from the meadowcroft rock shelter near pittsburgh pennsylvania has yeilded dates of human habitation between 15000 and in excess of 19000 years old.................bluefish caves in yukon alaska at 13000 bc .......fort rock cave in oregon, 12000 bc.....a mastodon kill site near sequim washington at least 12000 years old........old crow in the yukon at 20,000 to 40,000 bc.......pendejo cave in new mexico which has yeilded dates possibly twice the age of those at meadowcroft.....monte verde in chile with average dates of 13000 years old, with a hearth dated to 30,000 years old...at pedra furada in brazil human habitation has been dated to 48,000 years ago...without a doubt america was peopled at the least 50,000 years ago.......all these sites are pre clovis....rock tools have been found on them...in 1994 archeological investigators excavated fluted spearpoints adjacent to the bering straight that r/c dated to 10,500 bc.........niede guidon said it best with the statement '' americans should excavate more and write less''.............gldhntr

 

[EDDE]

"I can't remember the name of the site rite now) They claimed to have some "pre-clovis" period carbon dates but the problem was the cave was on the bottom of a ridge that had extensive mining operations and it's believed that run off from the mining contaminated the site."

kentucky

 

[Cannonman17]

There's never been an arrowhead wound in a mamoth mastadon or anything else- atl atl points yes... big difference. I believe that meadowcroft site was the one I was thinking of when I talked about the possible contamination by the mining operation, actually I heard them talk about that pobbibility on discovery too.. Some of the other sites you mention I'm familiar with and others I'm not- I'll have to look them up because new finds in this area are quite interesting. As far as you being sure that America was populated at least 50,000 years ago- you should write a book I guess. I don't buy it...yet. I'm not even going to go there on a pre clovis tradition... that is no more speculation than anything. All the examples of "tools" from these sites (the ones I'm familiar with anyways and by no means all of them) have been anything but sure finds. Rocks in a fire pit... I need hard proof, something that very much goes against the grain of most people here... treasure hunters have fantastic imagination at times. I need to mention that you mention of dates for various sites there like the one off the berring strait that I wouldn't argue- carbon dated with fluted points fits in with what is most commonly beleived that there was a migration during the last ice age- until somebody comes up with the hard evidence needed... just another theory. Look at the history books and what they are teaching in college level books... still say a migration during the last ice age, NOT 50,000 years ago. If they came here at least that long ago then there really should be Neanderthal finds (potentially) here in the states - again not impossilbe but I'll cr#p myself if they find one. Then we really would have to re write everythign. At any rate, I'mm not going to argue this topic with you guys anymore, I'm not going to convince you anymore than you are going to convince me.. and that's okay, it's America. I guess I'm more mainstream- doesn't make me right, but it deosn't make me wrong either. I still would like to read about that site on your land though- don't think my mind is closed to the idea, it's not.

 

[gldhntr]

history books still teach that we bought/traded with the indians for this country instead of the truth that we annihalated most of the strong and put the rest in pens for it and that the civil war was over slavery when it was actually far from that issue until lincum saw he would not be re-elected without much help, ala, emancipation....you would be about as good off reading fascinating myths and mysteries of crazy horse..i prefer reading studied works instead of run of the mill replays..arrowhead/spearpoint/atl point, they are all stone tools made and used by people long ago to hunt/kill....no difference i see........no arguement intended............try out isbn # 1-84333-594-8 lot of good references listed concerning several pre-clovis sites......the thing about clovis, is we are supposed to believe that no- one here then all the sudden clovis man out knapping and hunting....when columbus arrived here in the 1400s it was estimated that 44 million indians were already here. that took awhile...many of the indian traditions concerning sacred places relate to mounds/earthworks/townsites/etc that were here , very old and/or ancient , and long deserted when they first came to certain areas where these old sites were.........g

 

[deepsix47]

Actually, points have been very well studied and are a valuable aid in ID'ing, classifying and dating sites. Different types and styles of points in the same site can also give you an idea of how long a particular site may have been used (There is a cave in Colorado that produces points and many other artifacts, from the Paleo period up to and including the present Woodlands era). This same cave has produced Giant Bison bones and teeth that clearly show they were butchered by humans. Very close by is a canyon that produces points and artifacts also covering all eras. Basically, these two sites were inhabited from day one. My point (no pun intended) is that the various stone tools and points are very important and not just merely items to be lumped together as tools used for hunting and killing then disregarded.

Also, myths, legends, etc., are an often overlooked source for information. In Greek Mythology I would offer the city of Troy as an example. For the Americas, Native Peoples stories (not the library accounts by anthropologists or missionaries) as told by traditionalists that are removed from the Christian era influence, can be quite valuable. These you hear only after you gain the trust of these people and then even some are to sacred to be told out of their own circles.

The "legends" of the Hopi, Maya, Navajo, Apache and many others all have much in common. They tend to answer many questions that persist today but are to often disregarded because the ancient peoples are considered "primitive and/or savages". Yet, when good ole Christopher C. showed up, the Cheyenne had a news paper. When Europe was in the "Dark Ages" vast civilisations existed here in the Americas that were highly advanced in astronomy, mathematics, medicine and much more. Until the Empire State building was erected, the Pueblo in Chaco Canyon was the largest man-made building in the world. All of this was accomplished by peoples that supposedly did not have a written language, were primitive savages and were a threat because of their "heathen" beliefs.

Where did they came from, what happened to those that simply dissapeared suddenly, how did they spread out and become so diversified, are all told in their legends. By comparing these stories, questions start to find answers and those answers, when realized, can lead to some very interesting discoveries.

Anyway, I do apologize for getting a little long winded here and I don't mean to single out any one post. I really just hope that all would keep an open mind so that the really important issues will someday be recognized. Then, just maybe, our own present civilization won't dive into the abyss and destroy itself. The secrets of the ancient past are out there and would benefit all, if out of arrogance they are not merely disregarded. Someday, somewhere, they will be uncovered and hopefully by someone that will use them to the benefit all of mankind.
Deepsix