I have found the Lost Adams Diggings Sno-Ta-hay Canyon

[Cubfan64]

I've recieved some great responses from the media lately as well, a good thing! : )

Filemaker - if you would provide the sources for this statement, it would do quite a bit to boost your credibility.

 

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[AU_Hunter]

To Oroblanco, with respect: I looked at your linked sites, both of them. For the mound-builders in both the Southeast and Southwest United States, in each and every case, on-site archaeological digs have been conducted, examining pottery shards, bones of (food) animals and of humans, and all kinds of other artifacts. The mounds themselves were extensively surveyed in detailed ways by real surveyors on the ground. Most of them are characterized as ceremonial, feasting, or dance platforms. A VERY few are in the shapes of animals, most are in rectangular, circular, or other geometric patterns. Their sizes are characteristically (at the very largest end) a few hectares in area, and a few meters, perhaps even a few dozen meters deep, again at the very largest.

None of these characterstics I've described above apply to Phil/filemaker01's claims. Without any on-site evidence at all, he's postulated animal effigy mounds on the scale of several square miles, involving the movement of millions of cubic yards of dirt and rocks. I won't speak for AZ_Gold, but for me, these claims (coupled with the way they are made with vague, unattributed references to the White House, the National Geographic Society, NASA, "various universities", etc.) are simply silly, on their surface. It is not "baiting" to ask for supporting evidence, particularly when the claims are so extraordinary. And I'm not saying that it is impossible, simply that it's very improbable, and that the method used to make the claims and support them are silly, in comparison with the way professional (peer-reviewed) archaeological research papers are constructed. Real archaeologists don't go on TreasureNet telling fairy tales, and post pictures from Google Earth on their website, which also contains a link to a video series from "UFO TV". Real archaeolochical papers look like the one in your first link, Oroblanco, with statistical analysis, artifact dating, comparisons to similar sites, studying the cultures which actually lived in these areas during the times proposed, etc.

Regarding your link to the motion of the Earth's axis, in the first sentence, it refers to a time approximately 600 million years in the past. Nobody has ever claimed human beings even existed 600 million years ago, much less were building mounds in the desert Southwest U.S. then. Even for the motion of the Earth's axis due to precession, that has a period of 26,000 years, so it might be pretty difficult to correlate any noticeable shift from a period about 1,000 years ago. Again, no real evidence has been put forward to correlate actual surveyed angular measurements (South by Soutwest doesn't cut it) with a real date (no actual date has put forward for the construction of these animal effigies), so that real calculations can be made.

So, again, speaking only for myself, I would like to see real evidence for the claims that have been made. Visual impressions based on satellite imagery may at times be helpful in certain circumstances, but they are useless from a scientific standpoint without supporting physical evidence from the site in question. That's all I'm saying. Show me the goods.

 

[AZ_Gold]

This begins to look a lot like baiting. As much as I don't accept Phil's theories, this sort of thing is hardly producing anything useful to anyone.

I have to admit that I was very irked when I wrote that reply, hence the sarcasm. My intention was not to bait anyone though. My goal was to bring something useful to this discussion: some evidence of what is known about the region, and some common sense.

AZ_Gold also wrote

One point I want to make clear: the cultures mentioned in my last post are all of the known cultures that have occupied the southwest, the Paleo-Indians being the earliest known humans in the area.

I saw no mention of the Sinagua, Hohokam, or Mogollon cultures.

As for this one, Oroblanco, you are absolutely right and I was absolutely wrong. That was a misstatement on my part. I was assuming that those cultures fell under the umbrella of "Ancient Pueblo" people. I was wrong to assume, and it's not something I normally do. Again, I blame being irked (more about that later) and in a hurry. I thank you for pointing this out.

However, the basic tenet that I was trying to put forth holds true I believe. Allow me to restate that and see if you don't agree.

What I should have said is this: of all the known cultures in the southwest, particularly in the Colorado Plateau (which includes Phil's "site"), there are none that are known to be mound builders. And while there are a great many things that scienctists don't know, or are debating, there is a great deal of basic information that IS known. We know where they lived and there are no mounds at any of the sites where they did live. This leads me to believe that none of these cultures were mound builders.

Is it possible that a mound will be found? Of course it's possible. In my opinion it is highly unlikely, given the amount of research that has gone on in the region for so many years.

Is it possible that a previously unknown culture will be discovered in the region? YES! That would be exciting! If this happens, though, I suspect it would be a culture that predates the Paleo-Indians. I suspect that it would be a nomadic culture, as are most of the ancient humans. They would follow the food sources. Ya gotta eat, right?

There were Mound Builder cultures in North America, none in Arizona or New Mexico as far as I know but the Mississippians did extend into Texas. They did indeed build effigy mounds, like the famous Serpent mound.

I just want to make clear that the serpent mound, which I was aware of, is in Ohio. I'm not aware of any earthworks in Texas, but it's beside the point. There is no evidence to suggest the mound builder culture ever appeared in the Colorado Plateau or anywhere in the southwest.

Regarding the earth's axis baloney: while I certainly could have been more diplomatic I stand by my statement. AU_Hunter has covered it pretty well, and I don't know much about precession, but I'd like to add something. As evidence, I offer the following:

Please note that the compass is pointing north. Also note the heading on the ruler popup, which says 329 degrees. The Aztec Ruins were built sometime between the 11th and 13th centuries.

Was the earth's axis off by 31 degrees during that time period? Absolutely not. That's preposterous. Impossible. There would be evidence of radical climate change. There isn't. Phil's speculation is pure, unadulterated.... baloney.

Phil asks: "So then was the earth's axis maybe pointed the same direction as the canyon and the Aztec ruins when they were created?"

My response to that is: what canyon? I've never seen a canyon at Phil's location, and I don't accept his convenient cover story of "earthquake damage" to account for the missing canyon.

And, NO... the earth's axis was not centered 31 degrees to the west of where it is now when the pueblo was built.

And finally....... why was I so irked when I wrote that reply? Glad you asked. I am irked by Phil's constant promises of evidence to come, while never EVER providing any. Now he gives us promises of a brand new, yet to be announced, "discovery", when he has yet to provide a single piece of evidence for the last one! I am irked that he has willfully ignored the members of this forum that politely explained that his "my computer is bigger than your computer" argument is invalid. And I am irked by his constant use of character assassination rather than intelligent discussion with anyone who disagrees.

Especially in light of the fact that he has given us no good reason to agree with him. All he has is "this looks like a swan to me!" He has nothing else, no corroboration, nothing but empty promises. Over a year's worth.

Thank you, Oro, for correcting me. I respect your opinion. Thank you to everyone else for their input.

AZG

 

[filemaker01]

Oroblanco

I didn't mean to dispute that at all, I see what you're saying, but it seemed as though you were disagreeing with me while I also read other posts, I guess I let get the best of me when I replied, but as I also mentioned, one must reverse the photo of the sky to view both together to compare in that way. I even wrote that at one time the various records as you stated are mentioned in folklore and other petro glyphs as being in the distant horizon as I also mentioned. In fact someone placed a photograph of Native American that also showed Cygnus in that same area. I thought you were disagreeing with me.

Isn't this rather amazing though, the more that comes together, I just hope those people there will do well with such a great treasure at their feet. There are some very good things that come out of protecting such areas. If you have any other ideas, I would like to read about them in the near future.

My yard sale sure didn't work out as was planned. We're putting the final deal on my property I'm selling so I can get back to work soon, then head for This place as I mentioned before:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/mromero/3612078563/in/set-72157619429841239/

This area was one of the furthest north pyramids maybe older than the Aztec found that are much like the pyramids that also have a ball court are lacking in the ball hoop and may not have been used for sacrifices while there are signs of being covered by an even earlier layer made by other peoples to repair and make the pyramids nicer. These pyramids were buried by other ancient more recent peoples who it is believed the pyramids were buried to hide from the earliest Spanish Explorers who tried to raid the area but most early Spanish Explorers never returned nor were seen again when first coming into these areas after being attacked by the local Natives here then. These pyramids are also interesting in their alignments as you mentioned. I'm glad we found common ground there and no, I didn't actually dismiss anything you wrote, I actually do appreciate your input very much.

Here's a video for anyone interested.



This is where the tunnel I mentioned is located in the mountains my friend found after searching for with his father. He said he went into the end of the tunnel fearing the local legend that whoever finds these types of tunnels never return. So suspecting a dead fall trap like some pyramids and other ancient structures have these deadfalls, he managed to get a glimpse of a huge chambers that he saw a mural on one wall and what he said may be a room full of artifacts. He left quickly and reburied the tunnel but showed me exactly where it's located as he can't go back to the area due to some family fued or whatever. Anyway, it's going to be done properly so there's hopefully little risk in filming anyway.

Hopefully we'll see you around,

Thanks again

Phil

 

[filemaker01]

Check This!



These masks are rather interesting as are the peoples who lived in and around these rather only recently disovered pyramids that seem to use some of the same technology as the acient Anasazi which is rather intersting. Anyway, enough of this for now, gotta go to the store.

Hope you'all have a great day.

Phil

 

[filemaker01]

The old and ancient proverb of texting:

Please don't take anything I write as absolute argument to your testiment especially when you are in a better mood. There's no real way to see another person's body language to know their emotions when discussing various issues or even tissues for that matter.

 

[filemaker01]

...and never ever ... get your tweet in a bind....^&^

 

[AU_Hunter]

...We're putting the final deal on my property I'm selling so I can get back to work soon, then head for This place as I mentioned before:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mromero/3612078563/in/set-72157619429841239/

<Edit>(This is Plazuelas in the Mexican state of Guanajuato, a well-researched and well-documented site in MesoAmerica, dated to have flourished between 1,000 and 1,400 years ago) Source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plazuelas

...This is where the tunnel I mentioned is located in the mountains my friend found after searching for with his father. He said he went into the end of the tunnel fearing the local legend that whoever finds these types of tunnels never return. So suspecting a dead fall trap like some pyramids and other ancient structures have these deadfalls, he managed to get a glimpse of a huge chambers that he saw a mural on one wall and what he said may be a room full of artifacts. He left quickly and reburied the tunnel but showed me exactly where it's located as he can't go back to the area due to some family fued or whatever...

Once again, a fantastic tale including an unnamed "friend" on yet another Indiana Jones-like adventure, complete with deadfall traps, and who sees a room full of artifacts but leave it intact, then passes the location along to our friend Phil. And, Phil, just a question: How is it that you're planning a trip of over 1,800 miles to a foreign country, yet you won't make the journey less than half that distance within your own country to visit the site you've been telling us all about in west-central New Mexico, along the Arizona border?

 

[AZ_Gold]

A friend of mine flew over the canyon in a twin engine airplane and got a few photos of the effigy he's sending, but I got a preview and yes the effigies are as big and beautiful as Google Earth shows.

Can we see those photos please? I'll settle for the preview if that's all you have. Thanks.

 

[filemaker01]

Check This: Some ancient peoples were actually pretty brilliant:



Enjoy!

Phil

 

[AZ_Gold]

A friend of mine flew over the canyon in a twin engine airplane and got a few photos of the effigy he's sending, but I got a preview and yes the effigies are as big and beautiful as Google Earth shows.

I guess Phil is ignoring me. Can somebody else ask him if we can please see the pictures? I'm sure everyone following this thread would like to see those.

Thanks!

 

[filemaker01]

Check This!

Remember, when looking up at the sky while taking a photo of a constellation, one must reverse the image when compairing to the same image below to get an accurate comparison. Anyway I enjoyed this video that explains a lot of what other member have mentioned that make a lot of sense.



Phil Anderson

 

[Loke]

Check This!

Remember, when looking up at the sky while taking a photo of a constellation, one must reverse the image when compairing to the same image below to get an accurate comparison. Anyway I enjoyed this video that explains a lot of what other member have mentioned that make a lot of sense.

What you really, really mean is:
You must reverse the image to make it fit to _my_ idea of the effigies.

And why is that? Why would one have to reverse an image to make it fit with _your_ preconceived ideas?
According to _my_ simple way of thinking - looking up at the sky - it just doesn't fit - full stop.

*sigh* Really, one should stop feeding the trolls ...

 

[AU_Hunter]

...Remember, when looking up at the sky while taking a photo of a constellation, one must reverse the image when compairing to the same image below to get an accurate comparison...

That last YouTube is an excellent Astro 101 description of the various motions of Earth in it's orbit around the Sun, Phil, but it's pretty far off topic, and doesn't have anything to do with reversing the images.

I'm a little confused about the statement that "one must reverse the image when comparing to the same image below". Those who believe in the alignment of Orion with the Giza pyramids do not reverse the image, they claim that the 3 Great Pyramids match the stars in Orion's belt exactly as they are seen in the sky. SOURCE http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orion_Correlation_Theory Even the "Cygnus Theory" claiming alignment of the Great Pyramids with Cygnus uses a standard representation of the constellation Cygnus, not a reversed one. SOURCE http://viewzone2.com/pyramidcaves.html Not that I believe either of those hypotheses, either, but how can it work one way for those theories, but the image must be reversed to fit your theory? Can you go into a little more detail on why the ancient Native Americans would go to the trouble of reversing the appearance of the night sky, rather than simply projecting what they see onto the ground?

And, by the way, would you share with us the photos that your friend took from his airplane? I'd really like to see them. Thanks!

 

[Lafitte Deux]

I would like to see the fly-over photos as well. Could make for an interesting discussion.
Just curious Phil, how's the Oak Island research going?

 

[fetcher]

Not a doctor, but I'm very educated. In regards to this story, my opinion is that there are changes in plot, lack of concern for responses, introduction of new ideas before exiting old ones, making wild assumptions, changing of thought processes while writing, believing in a research realm that has been denied according to a reputable member, skipping social norms, and a few other things.

Again, that's my opinion. I'm not insinuating anything.

 

[Cubfan64]

Not a doctor, but I'm very educated. In regards to this story, my opinion is that there are changes in plot, lack of concern for responses, introduction of new ideas before exiting old ones, making wild assumptions, changing of thought processes while writing, believing in a research realm that has been denied according to a reputable member, skipping social norms, and a few other things.

Again, that's my opinion. I'm not insinuating anything.

Welcome to the treasure hunting community

 

[fetcher]

Thanks Cub. I enjoy this forum. I will say there are plenty of entertaining characters aboard. Cheers!

 

[filemaker01]

We already know at Sumerians, 4000 - 3000 BC knew and drew on many walls all the planets which is to some a big mystery. The fact is, we are so long past due in re-writing history and this canyon is just another example.

The good news is that I recieved emails from various students who are in the process now of studying the canyon as well as the US Parks Service and other entities who find the effigies quit interesting.

My goals have already been fulfilled which was to gain the attention to have the effigies studied which are now one of the hottest subjects in various colleges and professionals who also not only believe the effigies exist, but are now studying them regardless of what anyone wants to believe here.

WINNER!!!! : )

Just shows what a little knowledge can do! And yes, many already believe it is also the same canyon where the massacre took place of the Adams party who tresspassed onto these lands and refused to leave because Gold Fever set in to the point they were ready to use the weapons they brought in and built a cabin against Chief Nana's orders who had every right to defend that land at the time considering how sacred the canyon was to them and to many others now to know the truth!

Thanks everyone, I'll be back soon.

Phil

 

[AU_Hunter]

As a reminder, I had previously e-mailed a staff archaeologist (Eric Blinman, webpage here: http://www.nmarchaeology.org/eric-blinman.html ) with the State of New Mexico's Office of Archaeological Studies, who denied any interest that his office had in that area. I also emailed a staff archaeologist with the Bureau of Land Management's Soccorro District, which has jurisdiction over federal lands in the area in question. Here is her reply:

"Hello – We’re sorry to have taken so long to get back to you! Thanks for your patience. As far as we know, these are as you suspected natural geological and topographical features. The mound builders among the prehistoric Native Americans did construct some amazing earthworks, but these are east of the Mississippi river. And yes, we do have archaeological interests in west central New Mexico, but these are “standard” archaeological remains – sites, trails, isolated artifacts, and protohistoric and historic village sites of modern Native Americans. But no earthworks in animal form or otherwise. I did take a quick peek at his site – I can’t say about the Adams diggings, but I’m certain that the earthworks are not manufactured by human agency (or aliens either for that matter…). If you are interested in the archaeological resources of west central New Mexico, there are many publications available out there, everything from technical reports to National Geographic, Arizona Highways, and New Mexico magazines. So thanks for your note, and I hope this answers your inquiry. Sincerely, Sara Stebbins."

Sara T Stebbins
Archaeologist
BLM, Socorro Field Office
901 S Highway 85
Socorro NM 87801
Phone: 575-838-1257

There are only two governmental agencies with jurisdiction over archaeological resources in the area in question, and neither of them are interested in any "animal effigies", and I can back that statement up with comments from real archaeologists, Eric Blinman and Sara Stebbins. Also, for the record, there are no National Parks Service lands near this area.