"I fact-checked Sean Hannity on Obamacare"

[Dave44]

Ammo;" Sure, the Dems could have signed the House bill, but why should they make deals with extremists?"

Yeah,, why do the republicans consistently make deals with the extremists? I never understood until I figured out the Reps and Dems are from the same pool of people.
They have both been co-opted by extremist progressives.

Since you are one of the people that do not like to be called names... You should be careful here Ammo. "As I said, for all the talk, nobody seems to be bringing any proof to the table. Every post you make, Dave44, makes it more and more evident that you have none. "

 

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[Ammonhotep]

LOL you're too damn funny! You bring up a red-hearing point and then when confronted with it, you claim it's a "weak" argument. Keep trying buddy, ,but so far you are making yourself look pretty silly.

No red "herrings" here, although your claim is one.

800,000 people didn't work for two weeks; nobody can dispute a loss incurred by the people of the US due to the gov't shutdown.

Nobody can dispute that the shutdown was primarily an attempt to block the implemention the ACA.

Nobody can dispute that HR 368 was used by House republicans to block bringing the Senate bill to vote earlier than the last possible second, effectively holding the US gov't for ransom for 16 days.

Nobody has yet to provide any hard evidence that Obamacare is destroying the nation (a la Cruz and Hannity). To know whether it has done any good also will require many years of data to analyze. There's simply more propaganda on both sides than there is data (by many orders of magnitude).

As for the functionality of the ACA website, I thought Jon Stewart did an outstanding job of thrashing that botch job. Follow that up with the satirical Borowitz Report and you've got how I feel on the subject.

I've said my piece. Nobody dares respond with evidence, proof, data, or anything appearing thereunto. I'm out. Argue amongst yourselves, now.

 

[Dave44]

How much is that in relation to the amount BURNED by the radical Right during the recent shutdown. Yep ... a mere fraction. And all they had to do was sign that dang bill a couple weeks earlier.

Sure it's an absurd amount for a website that doesn't work correctly, but it's better than burning billions of dollars in an unsuccessful attempt to completely waste the website AND deprive millions of a health insurance product they want.

No loss?

800,000 workers were unproductive for two weeks. Assuming their average annual salary was $30,000 (ha! some estimate put it at 2.5x that figure), the government lost 1/26th of a year's productivity for each of those employees, or about $1150 each.

So 800,000 x $1150 = $920,000,000 in lost productivity.

Dave44, are you following, because I'm being conservative here. :-) Interesting how the more conservative I get, the lower that figure goes, huh?

Then there are the initial productivity costs of scaling back employees and getting everyone back up to speed, etc.

If that's not comprehensible, then I don't know what is.

Billions Mr Asimov? Or millions? Which of your "facts" should we believe? We could round up to a billion, but are you seriously trying to say the non essential employees lost Production? What do they produce? ALL of those employees equal 1 non working website?

You are right about 1 thing,, they shouldn't have been paid, some of them even applied for unemployment!

 

[UncleMatt]

Not trying to insult anyone, though I have to ask as I am curious; JB, PWP, UM - Are you guys teenagers?

lol, you aren't trying to insult anyone with your insulting question? WOW

 

[UncleMatt]

The democrats shut down the government because they reused to sign a budget on their own (as required by law), and then they refused to sign a budget that funded everything but their pet socialist project.

The shutdown in theory should have saved the government a large amount of $$$, but they only shut down a tiny percentage and then paid everyone back-pay so it didn't save OR COST anything more.

So Jason, you are claiming above that if the dems currently held the House, that the government shut down would have still occurred? Yes or no?

 

[Dave44]

No red "herrings" here, although your claim is one.

800,000 people didn't work for two weeks; nobody can dispute a loss incurred by the people of the US due to the gov't shutdown.

Nobody can dispute that the shutdown was primarily an attempt to block the implemention the ACA.

Nobody can dispute that HR 368 was used by House republicans to block bringing the Senate bill to vote earlier than the last possible second, effectively holding the US gov't for ransom for 16 days.

Nobody has yet to provide any hard evidence that Obamacare is destroying the nation (a la Cruz and Hannity). To know whether it has done any good also will require many years of data to analyze. There's simply more propaganda on both sides than there is data (by many orders of magnitude).

As for the functionality of the ACA website, I thought Jon Stewart did an outstanding job of thrashing that botch job. Follow that up with the satirical Borowitz Report and you've got how I feel on the subject.

I've said my piece. Nobody dares respond with evidence, proof, data, or anything appearing thereunto. I'm out. Argue amongst yourselves, now.

You offer no facts buddy,, conjecture and opinions are all that you have.
No one can argue that the Republicans offered to FULLY fund the government minus the Ocare. You can't seem to get passed that, weird huh?

 

[Dave44]

So Jason, you are claiming above that if the dems currently held the House, that the government shut down would have still occurred? Yes or no?

Please try to pay attn Matt. Ifs and buts?

 

[UncleMatt]

I just shake my head at those who think the minority in Congress has the right to shut down the government over a LAW they don't like, but didn't have the votes to defeat in the first place! And in their next breath they will claim to love and defend the Constitution. The mental gymnastics needed to engage in such perspectives would win the gold medal at any Olympics!

 

[UncleMatt]

Please try to pay attn Matt. Ifs and buts?

Your condescension makes me laugh

 

[Chadeaux]

No loss?

800,000 workers were unproductive for two weeks. Assuming their average annual salary was $30,000 (ha! some estimate put it at 2.5x that figure), the government lost 1/26th of a year's productivity for each of those employees, or about $1150 each.

So 800,000 x $1150 = $920,000,000 in lost productivity.

Dave44, are you following, because I'm being conservative here. :-) Interesting how the more conservative I get, the lower that figure goes, huh?

Then there are the initial productivity costs of scaling back employees and getting everyone back up to speed, etc.

If that's not comprehensible, then I don't know what is.

Oh, and don't forget the 24 BILLION that Mr. Obama spent on silly things like barrycades and EXPANDED POLICE FORCES at the veterans memorials, the national parks, etc.

Oh, and also, don't forget that all the republicans asked for at the end was the same one year delay that was given to big bad businessmen. You know, the greedy so and so's as you folks call them.

Big business gets a 1 year delay, but we citizens don't. Instead we have a website to sign up at which doesn't work. We have a Dec.15 deadline to be in the system and have chosen an insurance package or as of January 1 we will be criminals. The "grace period" does not mean you are not in violation of the law and subject to the fines, just that you have that extended time to sign up. You will STILL HAVE TO PAY THE FINE!!!

Obozo says you can sign up by phone. No you can't. Why? How would I know? Well, I've now spent 10 hours on the phone trying to get signed up, and ever ARC supervisor tells me the same thing: They can't get me signed up because they are using the same defective website the public has to use. All told I have spent 30+ hours of my life trying to comply with a law that is impossible to comply with.

 

[pat-tekker-cat]

Not trying to insult anyone, though I have to ask as I am curious; JB, PWP, UM - Are you guys teenagers?

LOL! Kinda reminds one of a teenage Friday night sleepover, huh? LOL!

Gezus, $13000 a year for a family of 3?
Come to Australia, for full hospital cover and basic extras package (optical, minor dental, major dental, physio, chiro, remedial massage, homeopathy, acquapuncture etc) the quote I got earlier in the year for me, my wife and 3yo son was only $180/mth !

Yeah, I've SEEN ya'll's "wonderful" healthcare in action! Sorry, old man with stints having heart pain, nurse at hosp ask, "why'd he come here"? Little girl with broken leg, wait 22 hours in ER, to NOT BE TREATED! Only to go to GP to finally get xray and help. No hernia's aren't emergency, until they're strangulated and you die! Sorry, but I've seen it there........

When the people who need help the most go to the doctor, they will have to pay up front the entire copay. When they get sick, there will be a $6,000 deductible that has to be met FIRST before the insurance will pay a penny. When they don't pay the deductible, the insurance WON'T pay the rest --- leaving them on the hook for the FULL AMOUNT because if they don't pay the deductible within the specified period, the insurance company can say that the customer did not abide by the policy so they are not responsible for any of the bill.

If anyone here wants to challenge me, first consult with your health insurance agent ... or any health insurance agent ... they will confirm the above statement.

Shocking eye-opener isn't it? Pay 14K a yr for coverg, outta 28k take home, 6k deductible/out of pocket, for sub-standard care, and a web-site that don't work.

Nobody can dispute that the shutdown was primarily an attempt to block the implemention the ACA.

Sure, the Dems could have signed the House bill, but why should they make deals with extremists?

Kinda sad, all the time, money, and resources that got wasted, when if the Rep had a just signed off, the ACA web-site/plan, still WOULD NOT HAVE WORKED, just as the mess, we have today with it!

Them Dems/prez held HARD AND FAST AND WOULD NOT BUDGE! Well, what did THAT get everone. An ACA plan, that still DOES NOT WORK! Maybe the prez shoulda gave an inch and delayed a yr? Coulda saved a lot of face, imho.
Talk about trying to deal with EXTREMISTS! LOL!

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

really pat?

where's the pillows.

 

[pat-tekker-cat]

really pat?

where's the pillows.

Hospital price pillows, or K-mart price? LOL!

 

[Chadeaux]

Shocking eye-opener isn't it? Pay 14K a yr for coverg, outta 28k take home, 6k deductible/out of pocket, for sub-standard care, and a web-site that don't work. LOL!

Actually, that 27,948 (to be exact) is BEFORE taxes.

 

[Dave44]

I just shake my head at those who think the minority in Congress has the right to shut down the government over a LAW they don't like, but didn't have the votes to defeat in the first place! And in their next breath they will claim to love and defend the Constitution. The mental gymnastics needed to engage in such perspectives would win the gold medal at any Olympics!

Maybe you should look into how government works in THIS country?

 

[Chadeaux]

I just shake my head at those who think the minority in Congress has the right to shut down the government over a LAW they don't like, but didn't have the votes to defeat in the first place! And in their next breath they will claim to love and defend the Constitution. The mental gymnastics needed to engage in such perspectives would win the gold medal at any Olympics!

I just shake my head to see POTUS doesn't understand that the office is NOT a kingship.

He needs to provide direction. A good way to do that would be to abide by law and submit a budget EVERY YEAR in the first week of February.

So far, since the 2008 election, POTUS has submitted ZERO (ironic, isn't it) budgets for the United States.

Just one more reason to call him President Zero, to call his plan Zerocare.

Uncle Matt, I DARE YOU TO PROVE ME WRONG!

 

[packerbacker]

The dems weren't just ready to let the gov't. continue to be closed, they were ready to let our gov't. go into default and not pay our debts. The repubs, from the beginning, stated they would not let that happen and it didn't. National suicide was ok with the dems if his majesty wasn't going to get his way. Raising the debt ceiling was also part of this nonsense. The dems say it "won't increase spending" and I'd like that explained. If they aren't spending more, why raise the debt ceiling? Right now the ceiling is limitless; that's a little scary in itself. Damn "radical" repubs!! This is a gov't. that will let DC employees have a few hours off work to view a Redskin Superbowl parade so how far will they go to waste money?? BOTH SIDES!!

 

[Native Floridian]

One thing, that has drove healthcare up, is the abuse of the system.
I processed MANY hospital ER claims, where the diagnosis was; stomach ache, headache, or sore throat.
I always wondered, had these ppl never heard of Pebto Bismal, Aspirin, or Sucrets/Halls.

Many in this nation, do not keep a GP, and run to the ER for every little bump and scrape.
In some counties with socialized medicine, the clinics are social gathering places. Wives who are allowed to do nothing else, but procreate and cook, spend their days with the kids at the clinic, just because........
I have also SEEN, the apathy of socialized healthcare workers, in regards to how they treat patients. Deplorable!

Imho, I feel that by NOT teaching ppl about adequate and appropriate healthcare, we have left the gate open for ignorance and abuse of the system. And, most, that run to the ER for the sore throat, headache, and stomach ache, have no way or intention, of paying that ER bill anyway, THEY ALREADY GET FREE HEALTHCARE, why start paying for it now?
The folks that have been paying all along, have been overpaying for those that abuse the system.

Wow, so many uniformed prejudges in one post!

let's handle the first sentence - hospital ERs treating common stomach aches and headaches.

Hospitals in inner cites do get used as substute GPs. Why? Because poor people have no place else to turn when they get sick. That's part of what ACA is supposed to resolve. I say this realizing that you are perfectly fine with these people being refused treatment. Especially because the right wing blogosphere has told you every time a poor person does this you are paying for it. Truth is you are not paying for it. Most inner city ERs are part of health care systems that are private corporations. They suck up the cost of those who can not afford to pay.

I live in the Philly area. There are no less than 9 major hospital health care centers with ERs with 10 miles of me. Everyone of them a private corporation. 4 of those 9 operate ERs in inner city neighborhoods.

One other point about the high cost of treatment at an ER. Every hospital has protocals. A process that must be followed for every person who shows up in their ER. These protocals are meant to screen out all the less likely possibilities. This is done for your safety and health as well as liabilty double check for the hospital. Maybe, in the end, all that was needed was some Pepto Bismal. But, then again if it turned out that those stomach pains were being caused by diverticulitis, and your big intestine splits open a few hours after you walk out of the ER Pink Bottle in hand, you'll be dead in 24 hours and the hospital has lots of splainin' to do! Point being there is a reason for all the testing. Better safe than irreversibly sorry.

 

[Dave44]

Wow, so many uniformed prejudges in one post!

let's handle the first sentence - hospital ERs treating common stomach aches and headaches.

Hospitals in inner cites do get used as substute GPs. Why? Because poor people have no place else to turn when they get sick. That's part of what ACA is supposed to resolve. I say this realizing that you are perfectly fine with these people being refused treatment. Especially because the right wing blogosphere has told you every time a poor person does this you are paying for it. Truth is you are not paying for it. Most inner city ERs are part of health care systems that are private corporations. They suck up the cost of those who can not afford to pay.

I live in the Philly area. There are no less than 9 major hospital health care centers with ERs with 10 miles of me. Everyone of them a private corporation. 4 of those 9 operate ERs in inner city neighborhoods.

One other point about the high cost of treatment at an ER. Every hospital has protocals. A process that must be followed for every person who shows up in their ER. These protocals are meant to screen out all the less likely possibilities. This is done for your safety and health as well as liabilty double check for the hospital. Maybe, in the end, all that was needed was some Pepto Bismal. But, then again if it turned out that those stomach pains were being caused by diverticulitis, and your big intestine splits open a few hours after you walk out of the ER Pink Bottle in hand, you'll be dead in 24 hours and the hospital has lots of splainin' to do! Point being there is a reason for all the testing. Better safe than irreversibly sorry.

Did I miss the part where federal funding would be cut off if a hospital turned someone away?
In that respect I guess I missed the part where you explained why these hospitals get the funding in the first place?

 

[pat-tekker-cat]

Wow, so many uniformed prejudges in one post!

let's handle the first sentence - hospital ERs treating common stomach aches and headaches.

Hospitals in inner cites do get used as substute GPs. Why? Because poor people have no place else to turn when they get sick. That's part of what ACA is supposed to resolve. I say this realizing that you are perfectly fine with these people being refused treatment. Especially because the right wing blogosphere has told you every time a poor person does this you are paying for it. Truth is you are not paying for it. Most inner city ERs are part of health care systems that are private corporations. They suck up the cost of those who can not afford to pay.

I live in the Philly area. There are no less than 9 major hospital health care centers with ERs with 10 miles of me. Everyone of them a private corporation. 4 of those 9 operate ERs in inner city neighborhoods.

One other point about the high cost of treatment at an ER. Every hospital has protocals. A process that must be followed for every person who shows up in their ER. These protocals are meant to screen out all the less likely possibilities. This is done for your safety and health as well as liabilty double check for the hospital. Maybe, in the end, all that was needed was some Pepto Bismal. But, then again if it turned out that those stomach pains were being caused by diverticulitis, and your big intestine splits open a few hours after you walk out of the ER Pink Bottle in hand, you'll be dead in 24 hours and the hospital has lots of splainin' to do! Point being there is a reason for all the testing. Better safe than irreversibly sorry.

Your assumptions of what I think and feel are just that, an assumption.
I believe, having billed hospital claims, for 53 hospitals, in 12 different states, for 16 yrs, give me some BASIS, for my PREJUDICES.
And, I was the one getting people medical coverages/Medicaid/disability,,,,, so please don't even attempt, to assume, that you may have a better insight than I, unless you wish to throw your credentials and first hand experience, into the ring!

Besides, getting these types hospital claims paid for, one way or the other, or not, does not negate the fact, that people need to be aware, educated, and given adequate clinical treatment, for routine/non threatening diagnosis's.
And yes, I am familiar with "protocol's" and how to tweak ICD9 codes, for maximum insurance payout!

I have worked with the poorest of poor, that I cried many nights over others' plights. I have also worked with scammers, that I wanted to ring their necks, as they don't even CARE whether their bill gets paid.

And YES, as far as a property owner and a tax payer, and one that pays my deductibles and the 20% left over, IN FULL, I might add, I DO help pay for those that pay nothing. By way of higher cotsts for services and taxes.

If my 16 yrs in hospital healthcare billing/caseworker setting isn't good enough for you, my cousin retired as asst director for 30 something healthcare clinics across 2 states. She makes more now, as a private consultant, than she ever did directing clinics. Other family member Director of nursing homes and social welfare worker, close friends' sister/bro-n-law owns the 4th largest privately held healthcare corporation in the world! Not to mention numerous doctor, nurse, and health professional friends.
NO, I'm sure you can see, I'm just prejudiced, and have no life experience to back up anything I say!

You can't teach people about things they have no interests in, healthcare, finances, taking care of themselves.
But most can sure work and master that latests newests iphone or video games, HUH!?
People will line up for a stupid gadget, but won't even attempt to impact their own health, in a positive way!
I guess that only bites, if the shoe fits.

HIV, Hepatitis, and ignorance, will bankrupt our healthcare system!