Holmes "Missing" directions

[Ashton Page]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

This is our dilemma right now. Do we go into the mouth of the canyon and locate the "rock house", only to have to come back out. Or, do we check out the ravine for any signs?

Travis

Hi Travis,

For the sake of argument, let’s assume that the Holmes manuscript is (essentially) legit. Brownie is trying to spill the beans without really spilling the beans.

When I read the Holmes Manuscript, I see a Freudian slip that got through; when Brownie recounts the part about his dad telling him (effectively) son, there are always people are watching you in those mountains, so if you find the rock house – don’t pace it off to the mine like I told you about.

When that remark went down on paper, I don’t think that Brownie realized he was spilling the beans that the mine is actually paced off from the rock house.

But read it for yourself and see if you think the same thing. If you think that was a Freudian slip then spend your time in the ravine. If you think that Brownie was totally candid and honest in the directions all the way up to “come out of the canyon” then concentrate your efforts in the mouth of the canyon.

Best,
Ashton

 

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[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Dr. Dutchman,

I concure!

I will let you know what Bob says about that letter.....shortly.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis,

About that rock house thingie....... There are, or have been, the ruins of stone houses in many places in the Superstitions. If you throw in stone walls in the entrances to caves, ya got even more choices. In addition to that, what if Waltz actually said ravine instead of canyon? Add a few more logs to that particular fire.

I assume you know that Bark did not mention a stone house in his manuscript. You might wonder why neither Bark nor Ely mention a rock house if the information came directly from Waltz through Julia or Rhiney. If you read both men's accounts, which are very close in content, you will understand why I, along with many others, believe that Waltz was no cold blooded killer.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

good evening Joe & Springfield: believe me, I personally know all about cholla and desert growth, all of which are well equipped with long sharp spines. when was the last time that you had a shoe anchored to your foot or leg by cholla spines passing through the leather. You are faced with an interesting choice? cut the shoe up, or just grit your teeth and yank ! The same applies for clothing.

Cholla spines are unique, they consist of multiple spines in a sheath like layer. When it is inserted into your cringing flesh and you attempt to pull it out, the outer layer stays well harpooned in the wound, while you only remove the inner layers. The outer
layer consists of a thin, flexible membrane, while the point is quite hard. A rather difficult combination to remove sigh.

My advice on Cholla is to not rely upon protective clothing, but your eyes.

As to the Hecho and Pitaya (Saguaro class), their needles are straight forward hard, sharp ones. In fact, they were originally used for the old fashioned phonograph needles. Their greatest fun is when you are sliding down a steep slope and the only thing to grab hold of is one of them, an experience that I would gladly have omitted, however it was that or go over a cliff, the decison was not hard to make..

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Don Jose,

I believe you are talking about the Tree Cholla, rather than the Jumping Cholla, which is another critter altogether. The Jumping Cholla is a much sneaker plant.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

HI joe, I am basically referring to the the waist high ones. There are several varieties, all on the 'go away' list. I always feel so sorry for the poor cattle in dry weather that have nothing else to eat and run around with several blobs anchored on their noses and mouths. I shudder to think of inside of their mouths.

The Yaquis used to strip a man naked, slice the skin off of his feet, than flip buttons of 'cholla at him until he was completely covered with cholla, then graciously turn him loose. Yech.


Hmm I wonder if that would be adequate for some of our politicians?

Don Jose de La Mancha
"I exist to Live, not live to exist

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Bob: a favor. will you please show my buddy BB how to take clear pictures like those? Loved them.

Don Jose de La Mancha
"I exist to Live, not live to exist"

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis,

"Do you know if the letter Bob Corbin received from the "Mesa Woman" is real? (If there is any way to know for "sure") If it is real, it should be a "dagger" through anything according to the Holmes manuscript giving it (the manuscript) NO merit, in my opinion."

Can you be a little more specific about this letter? Your source for the story would be a good start. Is it from a publication, common knowledge or private information? Any details would be appreciated.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Sorry Joe,

I should have been more specific. Common knowledge, the Ortiz letter. Supposedly from Peralta to Waltz with the "directions".

I returned the copy i was reading to the library of Glovers "Part 1" a few days ago, and now i'm wishing i didnt. If i remember correctly, Glover has that letter "translated", meaning you can actually read it. All i have is the picture in Corbins book, which i cant make out too well.

I think there was something else in Part 1 about a letter giving the rights to Waltz? Dammit, I cant remember, i guess im heading to the library tomorrow!

I blame you Joe completely for making me think too hard about the Petrasch/Thomas version! I am now sided on the "non-murderer" version. In my opinion, there is way too much "normal sounding" information in the Petrasch/Thomas account. Making me think that the version of Waltz with a partner, makes too much sense. (putting "everthing" together i.e. the map, stories, etc. )The Holmes account, seems to be a "cover my butt" approach. Part of my reasoning is that it seems Julia went to the South part of the range to start. (I believe its because Waltz wanted to go to the "boarding house") I DO NOT think it's because the mine is close to Weavers Needle. Dick seemed to spend his time coming in from the North working the Eastern side. Which, in my opinion, is nowhere near the location. (not when you put everything together)

I am having NO luck finding any "notes" from Sims or Bark, other than what is in Corbins "Bible". Maybe that's all there is, i dont know.

I also would like to ask you a private question reguarding Mr. Corbin. You can email me if you like. Everytime i try to send a personal message, you are "offline".

Thanks again,
Travis

Travis,

Actually the lady was from Northern Arizona, and it was her husband's family in Mesa who had the letter and map which was sent to Bob. The first problem is that "Don Pedro Peralta" starts out saying that he has "a large land grant in Arizona....." As Thomas notes on page 329, "there was no Peralta grant in Arizona."

It did not ring a bell with Bob, because he could not make the connection between a letter from a lady in Mesa.......with Holmes. Had I asked him about the Ortiz letter, I have no doubt it would have been a different story.

You can email me at: havasho@frontiernet.net

Before I reply, I will need your full name, address and phone number. I will provide mine in return. Sorry, but I don't deviate from that rule. Too many bad experiences over the years. I like to make sure who I am talking to in private exchanges.

The Holmes Manuscript has enough problems on its own, without any outside help. I suggest you reread Page 327-329 again. IMHO, Thomas is spot on in his assessment of this letter. Who knows about the map. The letter reads a lot like the Bicknell directions that Ruth was carrying.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Joe,

Again, i should have been more clear.

About the letter. I was trying to say that if the Ortiz letter is real, it should make the Holmes manuscript completely false. In my opinion.
I didnt mean to insinuate that the letter would "benefit" the "Holmes is right" arguement. I believe it would destroy the Holmes version of the story.

I agree the letter reads like the Bicknell writings. Bicknell did interview Julia right? Any chance the letter is real, given to Julia by Waltz, then relayed, shown, whatever, to Bicknell. Maybe the "large land grant in Arizona" is real? Maybe Don Peralta meant he had been given the grant by the Spanish, or his family had, before him? Maybe it wasnt from the "Reavis fiasco". Maybe Waltz told Julia he never recorded it, and she put that part in the letter that we see today so she wouldnt have any problems if she did find it? Bark does say in his notes that Julia's handbag was stolen containing a parchement map, Peraltas note for 60k, bill of sale, and naturalization papers. Either Bark had seen all of it, or Julia lied about it. The statement about a "Parchement Map", makes me start to think the "Partner Story" is the real story. It still makes me think there could be something to the Ortiz letter, unless there is information i havent come across yet.

Thanks,
Travis

I understood what you were saying about the letter.

Don't believe anyone knows, for sure, that Bick interviewed Julia......could have been Rhiney. When you read the entire article, it seems likely that he talked to one of them.

Bob called me this morning and the upshot of the Ortiz part of the conversation was that he wouldn't bet the home on it being authentic. Those are my words, not his. The map and the letter actually came from two seperate sources.....as he remembers it.

Many of these stories start out as fiction, and evidence is created to "authenticate" it. Same thing happens in the mountains......often. Things like the "Latin Heart" and the "Stone Crosses" are perfect examples.

You are searching for something of substance, protected by mountains of fiction.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

BB,

First let me say, i AM NOT arguing with your theory AT ALL. I feel everyone can have their own. If you have found a camp with buried bodies, tools, etc, then thats freakin awesome!(not for the bodies of course, but for you) I know everyone wants to see any ore you have found, i DONT, i'll take a picture of the tools if you have one!

About the killing of people in the Superstitions, FAR MORE people have been killed (or assumed killed) looking for the mine AFTER Waltz' death than during his "owning" of it. So is it possible that someone else killed those people? I say absolutely. That's if you buy into all of the stories about the "others" in the first place. Which after some further research, i dont buy half of the stories anymore. E.G., the 2 soldiers story.

I am by no means discounting the Holmes clues. I do think they have merit as Dick lived during the time of Waltz, unlike any of us. But with the further research i have done (i just got home from the library), in my opinion, there are too many things that do not make sense about the Holmes account. That is NOT to say it isnt true, but i wasnt there.

I firmly believe there are additional clues to find the mine from the camp, that has been MY WHOLE POINT of this post. Now i just question WHERE Holmes got them from, if he had them at all.

If you have indeed found The Lost Dutchmans Mine and all of the "stories" that go along with it, there is NO NEED to make everyone BELIEVE you. YOU know it, that should be enough. When it all "comes out", you could do a little "i told you so dance" with your tounge out and thumbs in your ears and i'm sure some would feel bad for not listening to you. But i would save the dance and the "ha ha's" until you actually SHOW something. Or just keep the damn thing and laugh at us quietly....

thanks again,
Travis

Travis,

Let me know if you figure out what bb's "theory" is. He has been all over the place in that respect. Many of his posts he deleted, as they start contradicting themselves. There is little doubt that the man once had a brilliant mind. Unfortunately, it appears he has burned out many of those fine brain cells with drugs.

He was a self admitted user, grower, and developer of a super strain of pot. He bragged to his fellow pot-heads about the game he was playing with the fools on TreasureNet. You are now engaged in his game. Ask him about Tazz99 or whatever it was callled.

His experience in our subject has consisted of one, maybe two trips to the Superstitions, with pictures of himself at the trail head (clear as a bell) and fuzzy pictures of places that could have been taken anywhere. He continued on to five gallon glass bottles of nitro' lining the entrance to his "LDM", placed there by the Jesuits.

He brought in the Aztecs, and claimed to have had conversations with Moctezuma himself. He could do that because he was part Indian and a very powerful shaman, able to leave his body and travel into the past and communicate with the dead.

He has also claimed to be a direct descendent of Henry Sinclair and the brother of Jesus Christ.

Now those are just a few of his saner moments. The really bad stuff has been removed by bb, or Jeff. The man does have moments of clarity. Trying to have a reasonable conversation with him, will leave you exhausted.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Thanks for the "heads up" Joe!

Next time im in the Mountains i will keep an eye out for Pot smoking Aztecs...I wonder if they have "eye patches" on.......? Maybe they got them from Jesus himself? He could have a land grant here too i guess....

Thanks,
Travis

 

[Springfield]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

..... Many of these stories start out as fiction, and evidence is created to "authenticate" it....

Shocking!!

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

BB,

First let me say, i AM NOT arguing with your theory AT ALL. I feel everyone can have their own. If you have found a camp with buried bodies, tools, etc, then thats freakin awesome!(not for the bodies of course, but for you) I know everyone wants to see any ore you have found, i DONT, i'll take a picture of the tools if you have one!

About the killing of people in the Superstitions, FAR MORE people have been killed (or assumed killed) looking for the mine AFTER Waltz' death than during his "owning" of it. So is it possible that someone else killed those people? I say absolutely. That's if you buy into all of the stories about the "others" in the first place. Which after some further research, i dont buy half of the stories anymore. E.G., the 2 soldiers story.

I am by no means discounting the Holmes clues. I do think they have merit as Dick lived during the time of Waltz, unlike any of us. But with the further research i have done (i just got home from the library), in my opinion, there are too many things that do not make sense about the Holmes account. That is NOT to say it isnt true, but i wasnt there.

I firmly believe there are additional clues to find the mine from the camp, that has been MY WHOLE POINT of this post. Now i just question WHERE Holmes got them from, if he had them at all.

If you have indeed found The Lost Dutchmans Mine and all of the "stories" that go along with it, there is NO NEED to make everyone BELIEVE you. YOU know it, that should be enough. When it all "comes out", you could do a little "i told you so dance" with your tounge out and thumbs in your ears and i'm sure some would feel bad for not listening to you. But i would save the dance and the "ha ha's" until you actually SHOW something. Or just keep the damn thing and laugh at us quietly....

thanks again,
Travis

Travis,

Let me know if you figure out what bb's "theory" is. He has been all over the place in that respect. Many of his posts he deleted, as they start contradicting themselves. There is little doubt that the man once had a brilliant mind. Unfortunately, it appears he has burned out many of those fine brain cells with drugs.

He was a self admitted user, grower, and developer of a super strain of pot. He bragged to his fellow pot-heads about the game he was playing with the fools on TreasureNet. You are now engaged in his game. Ask him about Tazz99 or whatever it was callled.

His experience in our subject has consisted of one, maybe two trips to the Superstitions, with pictures of himself at the trail head (clear as a bell) and fuzzy pictures of places that could have been taken anywhere. He continued on to five gallon glass bottles of nitro' lining the entrance to his "LDM", placed there by the Jesuits.

He brought in the Aztecs, and claimed to have had conversations with Moctezuma himself. He could do that because he was part Indian and a very powerful shaman, able to leave his body and travel into the past and communicate with the dead.

He has also claimed to be a direct descendent of Henry Sinclair and the brother of Jesus Christ.

Now those are just a few of his saner moments. The really bad stuff has been removed by bb, or Jeff. The man does have moments of clarity. Trying to have a reasonable conversation with him, will leave you exhausted.

Good luck,

Joe

Hi Joe,

I've had BB on ignore for over 6 months now - it's so much easier to avoid the ridiculousness. That said, someone quoted him and I accidently read it - looks like he's back on the story of how he found the source of the "black death" in the Superstitions and is just waiting for the right time to let it loose on us humans.

Dirty Dutchman - looks like you've "caught the bug" as well as some of the rest of us .

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

so joe let me ask you good question ,,,

where is the dagger going to piont if you find out that waltz was only makeing up the legend from a old portugese bed time story he had herd as child and most people in the America's knew little about it .. if the legend was total fiction where dose that leave your dagger theory ...lol

one thing the LDM legend has is many other storys that share many of the common factors .. lost gold .. hidden mine .. indains raids ...mexican's .. mules a old desert rat ...

its just to much BS to be a true legend right ....Joe ...

it think the only here that thinks the mine is real is you ...lol

joe can you test that black death and tell me if it works or not ....lol

joe you got to be catching on by now ...


i have been pulling your chain for a few years now ... i have had the location of the mine from the start ....

the legend is made up ... its not real get it ! Waltz was full of SH ** !

ya he had some gold .. and he stold that ...

the mts dont subport the legend and the evidence dont ether ...

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis,

You only have seven or so days of bb under your belt. After two or three years the novelty wears off........Trust me!

Take care,

Joe

 

[Javaone]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Hey Travis, Great stuff... enjoying your posts.

Joe is right - Thanks to BB I learned where the "Ignore" button was pretty quickly.

Jerry

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis,

As far as I know, there are six confirmed versions of the Bark Notes, and one not completely confirmed. I believe you are asking about that seventh version. There is little difference in the first six.

Basically, there are said to be two versions of the Bark Notes. One is the Manuscript, and the other is Barks actual notes. The latter are said to include a list of 40 questions that Bark asked Rhiney and a number of unpublished clues from Petrasch and Thomas.

It is rumored that Thomas Glover has seen that seventh version, but he has personally denied that to me, while a guest in my home. Don't believe Thomas is the kind of man to accept my hospitality and then lie to my face.

IMHO, the seventh version is pure fiction. There is one person who's fingerprints are on that seventh version, and for that reason I believe it's probably a hoax.

That's just about all that I know.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis,

I have many friends who are considered to be at the top of the Dutch Hunting food chain. Most of them just say......"I can't discuss that", or something along those lines. I will often say the same thing. Some were just people I thought were my friends, and they lied to me every time they spoke.

Stay in this game long enough, and you will find your own fingerprints.

Hope to meet you at this year's Rendezvous.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

BB,

Dang dude, it's like listening to Yogi Berra give directions! LOL

You say. "Joe is the only one that believes the mine is real"? Then you say, "I have had the location of the mine from the start"....??

You said Waltz wasn't telling the truth to Holmes....then you said the directions fit after you "found" the correct location....?? (After you said the directions wouldn't do me any good..??) LOL

Now you say the clues don't fit....??

I just came on here for some help and you're turning my post into....crap, i don't even know what to call what you're writing...

I wont hit the "ignore" button though, you're too good for a laugh!

thanks,
Travis

sorry about the confussion i guess i in the learning curve when i was in miltary training .. mis leeding and disinfomation is a skill

the fact is joe is explaining the truth . to the letter i have done all those things and well keep doing them .. because that was part of my misdirrection and misleeding format ..

see your right you have own been here a few days .. and after a few weeks the only thing joe wants to here is anything you have hiden in your pocket .. i have been playing the game for years now .. joe has a hole group of so called friends untill his friend follow you into the desert .. then you will under stand why i did what i did ... IMHO joe may be the most dangerous preson on the site , look at his reactions to what DE said .. his friends told him what was going on out there in the desert ..

thats why i was warning DE ...

see the fact is joe dose not want anyone close then him self ..i under satand that completly but the fact is i located 7out of 9 sites so far ! beyond that joe can do what ever he wants .. it has nothing to do with me .. but joe thinks he can control everything that goes on out there in the desert and thats not true .. as i said above , i can in fact beat joe theory in 5 mins flat . and yes i will be nmore then willing to prove that statement at the rendenous where i can see joes spirit earn what his actions have done to others ..

you dont want me posting or replying to your post .. thank you for saying so .. good luck