Holmes "Missing" directions

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis,

"P.S.
Spell Check is that kind of rectangular button on the right hand side....."

Well........Problem is.......Too many choices. How's a guy to know which word to choose?

Take care,

Joe

 

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[Loke]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis,
Also remember the one about 'you have to go down from the north' (can't remember where I read that, but supposedly it's from the man himself) ...
The only 'plausible' place _I_ have found, you have to go 'down' from the 'south' - so I guess I'm barking up the wrong tree ...

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis,

For a place that might match up to all of your clues, you might want to peruse this conversation:

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1122

Let me know what you think.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis,

You may want to read the entire thread......

Take care,

Joe

 

[Loke]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

<snip>
I believe the ONLY reason Waltz wanted to start at the "boarding house", is that he believed he could go farther into the mountains with them in a wagon from the South, rather than from the North. I believe this is where Julia and Rhiney "hosed" themselves. His original directions were given to them with the thought that he could RIDE there, not in a wagon, but on a mule, horse, whatever. It wasnt until his condition worsened, that he said they would start out from the South, in a wagon. In my opinion.
<end snip>

Now you're talking! That makes an awful lot of sense ... *kicking m'self for not thinking of that sooner*

Btw - do you receive visitors on this island of yours??

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis and Per,

One of the great things about educating yourself on the LDM is watching all of the differing stories meshing together. Without reading everything out there that is available, you will miss out on the overall plicture.

Once you believe you are on the right track, don't let anyone convince you that you're wrong. On the other hand, keep in mind that there may be things out there that could change your outlook.

"I believe the ONLY reason Waltz wanted to start at the "boarding house", is that he believed he could go farther into the mountains with them in a wagon from the South, rather than from the North. I believe this is where Julia and Rhiney "hosed" themselves. His original directions were given to them with the thought that he could RIDE there, not in a wagon, but on a mule, horse, whatever. It wasnt until his condition worsened, that he said they would start out from the South, in a wagon. In my opinion."


"Jake was about eighty-six years old and evidently was not expecting to live long. In early March, 1891, he told them that he did not think they could find the way to the mine, and that he had better get a couple of ponies and a couple of burros, a wagon and some grub, and go with them as far as the new board house, where there was a woman and three children, and that was as far as he could go. From there on, it would have to be horseback, and he thought he could show them the trail over the mountain looking from the house, and they must wear their oldest clothes because the brush was bad."

Jake never mentioned going into the mountains from the north. He was going to ride in the wagon to the "new board house". Jake and the wagon were always going to stay at the house.

Do you know where Julia and Rhiney first attempted to enter the mountains?

Good luck,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis,

On their first attempt to enter the mountains, Julia and Rhiney tried to drive a wagon up Hog Canyon. Needless to say, that did not work out well for them.

It would appear that Sims Ely and Jim Bark are not your primary source for research material. Can you tell me which books you are using?

When you say "Petrasch", which member of the family are you talking about?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis,

On their first attempt to enter the mountains, Julia and Rhiney tried to drive a wagon up Hog Canyon. Needless to say, that did not work out well for them.

It would appear that Sims Ely and Jim Bark are not your primary source for research material. Can you tell me which books you are using?

When you say "Petrasch", which member of the family are you talking about?

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

Can you remind me why you think Hog Canyon was the first place they entered the mountains? Ely says it was First Water, and other than the "6 miles west of the home ranch," I can't find anything in Bark that clarifies where he met Julia and Rhiney. 6 miles could have meant 4-8 miles and could really have been any of the narrow canyons leading into Superstition Mt. proper.

I think I asked this one before on another forum, but I can't for the life of me find it again

 

[Blindbowman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

no joe is right cub .. i remember some else said it was hog canyon .. i beleive it was the killer mts ..book by curt gentery ..

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Paul,

There are many reasons for thinking that Hog Canyon is where Jim Bark found Julia and Rhiney camped.

P.C. Bicknell mentioned in his article in 1895 that the instructions for finding the Peralta mine were to take "the first ravine or canyon east from the west side of the range on the south side....." Those instructions likely came from Julia Thomas, who heard them from Jacob Waltz. Many Dutch Hunters believe that canyon is Hog Canyon.

If Julia was Bicknell's source, and I believe she was, it makes perfect sense that they tried to enter the mountains at Hog Canyon.

Bark believe he had found a "monumented trail" (also in Bicknell's article) in the canyon. He thought it was Spanish. Others have found that same trail, including Monte Edwards. It may be that the two monuments that my brother and I found on the ridge between West and East Boulder Canyons, were the last two monuments that had not been destroyed.


The last reason, circumstantial like the rest, is that the entrance to Hog Canyon is the correct distance and direction, as quoted by Bark. Yes it could have been 4, and it could have been 6, I suppose it could have been 60 and he just left off a zero. Fact is, he wrote "6", and he wasn't a rube.

I could probably think of a few more reasons, given time.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

In the end I suppose it doesn't make much difference where Julia and Rhiney started their first search for Waltz's mine since they didn't find it, but I don't see enough evidence to conclude as fact that their first attempt was up Hog Canyon.

Ely says it was at First Water on the N side of the main mountain, Hog Canyon is not the first canyon/ravine heading north from the west side of the main mountain, and I feel like the timeline isn't accurate enough to know for sure that Bark's meeting with them was during their first search.

You mentioned that Monte Edwards had found the same monumented trail up Hog Canyon - do you remember where you heard or read that?

Thanks Joe

By the way, Dirty Dutchman - what the heck happened to almost all your posts in this thread

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Paul,

I'm sure you must be right. Don't know why I thought any of that was an important clue.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Paul,

I'm sure you must be right. Don't know why I thought any of that was an important clue.

Take care,

Joe

C'mon Joe, all I did was ask a question - no ulterior motives or anything - why the condescending comment of "I'm sure you must be right?"

I've heard it stated more than a few times by more people than just you that Hog Canyon is where Julia and Rhiney made their first attempt into the mountains - not stated as a theory, or as a guess based on circumstantial evidence, but as a fact. All I was trying to do was figure out if there was something more out there that I hadn't seen that made it so concrete.

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Hey Cub,

I took them down myself.

I feel you've got to give a little to get a little. I feel I gave A LOT, and the return post's were short, and usually just disagreeing with me, not giving me a return theory. I dont mind the disagreeing, but the lack of a return theory is why i took MY thoughts down.

Yesterday i put up ALL of that info about the "first trip", with dates and names, and what are we talking about......Hog Canyon?!? Really?!

Not my theory, not your theory......Hog Canyon. I do agree with you, i dont care where it was they went first , they didnt find it. LOL

thanks again,
Travis

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Paul,

I believe I answered your question as best I could. My answers did not seem adequate for you, so I assume they are all wrong. I have no problem with that.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Hey Cub,

I took them down myself.

I feel you've got to give a little to get a little. I feel I gave A LOT, and the return post's were short, and usually just disagreeing with me, not giving me a return theory. I dont mind the disagreeing, but the lack of a return theory is why i took MY thoughts down.

Yesterday i put up ALL of that info about the "first trip", with dates and names, and what are we talking about......Hog Canyon?!? Really?!

Not my theory, not your theory......Hog Canyon. I do agree with you, i dont care where it was they went first , they didnt find it. LOL

thanks again,
Travis

DD - It's your thread and your posts to do with as you see fit - no argument there. Keep in mind though that you started the topic only 10 days ago and it had 80+ posts - granted lots of them were from BB who is on ignore, so I only read your responses to him, but Joe had some input and I planned to add more input as time went by. There's only so much time in a day, and around the holidays and starting back up at work this week meant plenty of us probably didn't have time to go through all our sources and put together reliable arguments/discussion points for our theories. Now that can't be done because I can't go back and re-read your posts and compare my notes and information to what you put down.

I feel like you were a bit hasty, but again that's your perogitive (sp?). Threads in the LDM topic tend to really weave around A LOT, and can often end up on a completely different subject than where it started - as the person who started it, you can and should ALWAYS be willing to step in and push things back to what you wanted to talk about and anyone responsible for getting off track will usually be respectful enough to either get back to the thread, or if they aren't interested simply stop posting there.

I wish you hadn't taken down your posts before I was even able to compare everything to what I've read and seen.

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

My answers did not seem adequate for you, so I assume they are all wrong.

I really don't understand why the condescending tone - especially since you know you don't really assume they are all wrong.

DD had pointed out a number of his theories as to where he thinks Julia and Rhiney first searched the mountains. Since his posts are gone now, I can't go back and quote any of them, but one of your responses was...

Travis,

On their first attempt to enter the mountains, Julia and Rhiney tried to drive a wagon up Hog Canyon. Needless to say, that did not work out well for them.

It's stated as a fact, not a theory or a generally accepted belief, but a fact. I remember seeing other people mention it as a fact in the other 2 forums we've been involved in as well but my little bit of searching hasn't come up with anything more than circumstantial evidence, and I think it's misleading to state it as a fact unless there is legitimate proof - I was asking if there was real proof that I hadn't seen is all. For example, Bark saw them camped near one of the wells used by his rance - I wondered if maybe through your sources you knew where this well was actually located.

I know you and your brother saw monuments and I have no doubt you did, but did the destroyed monuments lead down into Heiroglyphic Canyon, Monument Canyon, "No Name" Canyon? Hog Canyon? Carney Springs area?

I had never seen anything about Monte Edwards finding a monumented path leading down Hog Canyon, and was also hoping you had the source for that information.

Something else occured to me early today too. If you believe the pit mine in Roger's Canyon was the LDM, how does that jive with Julia and Rhiney taking Hog Canyon up and over along the monumented trail into the mountains that way? Why in the world would they have tried to make their first trip up any of the canyons on the S face of the main mountain unless they completely misunderstood Waltz's directions. At one point I thought when he was sicker that he planned to ride with them to the board house (QCU ranch?) and then give them directions from there while he waited - that definitely could lead towards Roger's Canyon, but would make absolutely no sense for him to direct them back 6 miles from the direction they came to go up and over the main mountain.

I'm getting more and more confused the more I think about it .

Anyways Joe - you know me well enough to know that I don't have ulterior motives and don't try to put people "on the spot" or anything. I feel as though the tone in your responses to me was not neccessary and I took them as being condescending and "dismissive" - if that's not the way you meant them, then I misread the intent and apologize.

Paul

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

My answers did not seem adequate for you, so I assume they are all wrong.

I really don't understand why the condescending tone - especially since you know you don't really assume they are all wrong.

DD had pointed out a number of his theories as to where he thinks Julia and Rhiney first searched the mountains. Since his posts are gone now, I can't go back and quote any of them, but one of your responses was...

Travis,

On their first attempt to enter the mountains, Julia and Rhiney tried to drive a wagon up Hog Canyon. Needless to say, that did not work out well for them.

It's stated as a fact, not a theory or a generally accepted belief, but a fact. I remember seeing other people mention it as a fact in the other 2 forums we've been involved in as well but my little bit of searching hasn't come up with anything more than circumstantial evidence, and I think it's misleading to state it as a fact unless there is legitimate proof - I was asking if there was real proof that I hadn't seen is all. For example, Bark saw them camped near one of the wells used by his rance - I wondered if maybe through your sources you knew where this well was actually located.

I know you and your brother saw monuments and I have no doubt you did, but did the destroyed monuments lead down into Heiroglyphic Canyon, Monument Canyon, "No Name" Canyon? Hog Canyon? Carney Springs area?

I had never seen anything about Monte Edwards finding a monumented path leading down Hog Canyon, and was also hoping you had the source for that information.

Something else occured to me early today too. If you believe the pit mine in Roger's Canyon was the LDM, how does that jive with Julia and Rhiney taking Hog Canyon up and over along the monumented trail into the mountains that way? Why in the world would they have tried to make their first trip up any of the canyons on the S face of the main mountain unless they completely misunderstood Waltz's directions. At one point I thought when he was sicker that he planned to ride with them to the board house (QCU ranch?) and then give them directions from there while he waited - that definitely could lead towards Roger's Canyon, but would make absolutely no sense for him to direct them back 6 miles from the direction they came to go up and over the main mountain.

I'm getting more and more confused the more I think about it .

Anyways Joe - you know me well enough to know that I don't have ulterior motives and don't try to put people "on the spot" or anything. I feel as though the tone in your responses to me was not neccessary and I took them as being condescending and "dismissive" - if that's not the way you meant them, then I misread the intent and apologize.

Paul

Paul,

I do believe the Pit Mine is the LDM. That and five bucks will buy me an average cup of coffee......maybe. The evidence I have seen and read points to that likelyhood. I can also see the problems with that conclusion. It's an opinion not a proven fact.

If it's not the LDM, some searchers might want to go back to the beginning, that being Julia, Rhiney, Bark, Ely and perhaps P.C. Bicknell. There is strong circumstantial evidence for that (nonscientific) hypothesis.

I accept both theories as valid, based on the evidence that is available. While the Pit Mine is tangible evidence, until it is factually proven to be the LDM, I will keep other possibilities cooking in my brain pan.

Following this thread, the best theory to put forward, concerning Julia and Rhiney's efforts, is the one I presented to Travis. The fact that Bark might have mistated the distance does not negate the fact that he wrote 6 miles, or so (I believe) in his manuscript.

If I seemed a bit short or abrasive, it has more to do with my own failing abilities rather than any doubts you may have about my theories. I find myself more and more disinclined to join in these discussions. I suppose I just participate out of habit.

My appologies for the tone of my posts to you.

Best to you and Connie,

Joe

 

[Dirty Dutchman]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Hey Cub,

I hear ya, i may have been a bit hasty on taking the posts down. But i feel, if you want the monkey to dance, you have to throw him a banana once in awhile. LOL

I realize it's the holidays, but there were only a few people replying and "getting in the game", but the post was read over 1800 times. So there was no input, but there sure were a lot of people interested in it.

The people that did input helped me out A LOT. And i surely appreciate that. I dont think i would have come to my current conclusions about the Waltz story, without coming on here and hearing all of the input from you guys. I still stick with my search area, that hasnt changed. But trying to answer some of the questions or input i got, definately helped me get a clearer picture of the "history" involved, as well as answer some questions i had before i joined here.

I may be on to SOMETHING. I have gotten personal messages from several people in the last few days saying they were at least enjoying the posts and a few "good lucks". Evidently im at least making people think!

Thanks,
Travis

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: Holmes' "Missing" directions

Travis,

"But i feel, if you want the monkey to dance, you have to throw him a banana once in awhile. LOL"

Deleting posts that you felt were important enough to submit in the first place, brings back bad memories for a few of the people posting here. We felt they deserved our consideration and responses. In some cases we have spent some time researching our answers. Once you pull them, I feel that my time has been wasted. A reply floating out there, without a question, is less than helpful for many people.

Hopefully you will put that practice behind you.

Take care,

Joe