histroy of the cave /tunnel

[cactusjumper]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Oro,

I appreciate the advice. I will do what you have recommended. Where exactly did you see these records? Where did the records say the ore was shipped from and where was it shipped to (San Francisco)? Was it ore, or refined gold?

I would appreciate any information you can provide, as these archives would be a gold mine in themselves.

Joe

 

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[Springfield]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

The truth is I took a job 6 days a week, to get money together to move. Real estate developers have bought up ALL of the land on all sides of our home here, and even drove into the yard to make an offer to buy us out, so we are moving - going to SD Black Hills, probably for a year, while we sell this place and hunt for a new hide-out. I am now no longer at the job, just busy packing up and sorting things out to "run away" and get away from the %*#&#! developers as soon as possible. The monsoon rains have caused us some headaches in packing and keep the 'road' almost impassible even to get out to pavement, so...hopefully we will be out of here soon. I did say "hopefully" as the weather has not been cooperative, at least so far.

Too bad. Cochise County seems to be sliding down the slope of the same sort of development that has choked the rest of Arizona with wall-to-wall subdivisions and RV parks. Man, even Showlow and Pinetop are now joined at the hip by sprawl! It's all about the money. Hope your stay in the Black Hills is pleasant. Don't forget your boots - last time I was there I got stranded in Rapid City with an 83" snowfall west of town. If you're looking for new permanent digs, do yourself a favor and stop through the Silver City area and look around a couple days on your way north.

Regards,
Springfield

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

B,

Thanks. I had a copy of that "document" long before Helen's book came out. It may, or may not, be authentic. I have heard that the family has the original, but have never talked to anyone who has seen it. Ms. Corbin's book has more than it's share of questionable material. I believe that is through no fault of the lady.

None of that has anything to do with the claim that Waltz shipped $250,000.00 worth of ore through Wells Fargo to various, depending on who is telling the story, locations in California.

Your husband is the first person.....living, who has claimed to have seen the documents, in person, at least to me. It seemed like a natural progression in the conversation to ask exactly where he saw the records. I understand if he declines to answer that question, but the information that I have indicates that no such confirmation of Walt's shipments exists. The $7,000. draft is another issue altogether.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

B,

Not sure how following where the thread leads and commenting, is highjacking, but this topic was never a serious one from the get-go.

On the other hand, does this mean I won't be hearing where Oro found the Wells Fargo records?

When you stop to consider how much "ore" Waltz needed to ship to reach that $250,000 mark......at the price of gold then, it really puts the whole story in a new light. Hard to ship that much ore, in those days, without creating quite a (local) stir.

If Oro provides that source information, I can guarantee I will follow up on it. There have been a number of really talented researchers who have tried to find such documentation, without success....as far as I know.

Thanks,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

B,

I look forward to that post.

Best of luck on the move and new home.

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Randy,

One can really only wonder how many pounds of ore it took to get to that refined number. Probably more than a couple of strongbox's tossed on top of the stagecoach.

I would pay good money to see those Wells Fargo records.

Hope you make it to the Bradshaws.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Greetings Cactusjumper and everyone,

Gee sure got your attention with that little mention, something I thought most all Dutch-hunters had already known about - the records of Waltz shipping ore. I saw the records on a visit to San Francisco some years ago, and Joe you won't have to pay any 'good money' to view them - however obtaining permission to PUBLISH those records is not something I was able to obtain. Perhaps you have a better 'flirt' than I do (I am not too attractive after all) or have a more persuasive style. You will need to go to SF, here is the address:

Wells Fargo Historical Services
420 Montgomery Street (A0101-106)
San Francisco, CA 94163

You could try writing a letter, but an in-person visit is generally more 'productive'.

I did not write down the destinations of his shipments, but at least one was to the US mint, which was buying gold - however they were not all sent to the same address, and the total value came to well over a quarter million dollars. At that time, it was a sizable sum.

Their archives are a 'gold mine' of information, but be prepared to read through pages and pages of very innocuous stuff - people shipping all sorts of very ordinary things. Quite a number of robberies and Indian attacks are also recorded, one little fact(oid) that stuck with my tiny brain was that there were over 300 stagecoach holdups in Wyoming territory in one three-month period (1878), a fact that modern historians seem to want to pretend didn't happen. Western history is so skewed by Hollywood and writers, as well as revisionist modern historians that the truth is lost to most people.

Good luck and good hunting to you (all) I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

A man named Jacob Waltz was an historical figure in Arizona. The paper trail that remains verifies that fact. It's also strongly arguable that Waltz, or someone using that name, who lived in Phoenix in the late 19th Century, had access to significant quantities of high-grade gold ore. Where he got it and what his motives were for associating the ore to the Superstition Mountains is unknown.

Nearly all the lore surrounding this legend is speculative, offered by theorists, some of whom may have questionable integrity and/or a personal agenda. Their publications and discoveries through the years are interesting but so far have proved nothing. The "source information" presumably originating from Waltz himself and his confidants of the time - the basis for all the speculation - may or may not have been accurately reported. If accurately reported, it may have been disinformation to begin with. The results of both possibilities are the same.

As in all "lost mines and hidden treasures", the truth is seldom what it seems. As much as I think Blindbowman should be totally ignored, I think his rantings may actually have inadvertantly produced a grain of food for thought. I think there is a much bigger picture to look at concerning the Superstition Mountains and select other sites in the Southwest. I think these sites contain items of great value and even greater historical significance. I believe there are people who know the truth and are silent as armies of misguided TH-ers follow the wrong clues to the wrong locations. That's why these places are still "lost".

 

[Old Dog]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Springfield,

I think you have just stated the main reason the majority of good hunters do so much research. They really don't like the idea of getting farther away from the prize.

Granted, sometimes a clue is so good you just have to try it out. just to keep from going into withdrawl, There is something about being out in the middle of it, that is part of why we do it.

As far as other guys chasing the wrong clues...
That's their problem don't you think?
Setting them right defeats the purpose. unless it meant to save a life.

OD

 

[the blindbowman]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

i agree a 100% with what Springfield said ,... its one of the reason my sighting showed the LDM was most likely what i had seen yet i went on ward to research the tunnel and cave data of the legend....

think about like this .the pit is high up on a mt and is hard to get to and locate , and what do got when its all done ... a 12 short shaft pit with almost nothing around it to define what or where it is ...

a lot of you may not agree with the way i defind my reaserch into a collection of wide range data that may or may not be part of any legend not to minssion this legend or that legend ,, but the piont remains , its like fishing with a larger net , you may get a lot fish that you dont want and have to throw them back but its the fish you do want that shows up hopeful on the dinner plate ...

even the lac of data asurounding the pit is off set by the tunnels histroy . i got thinking about why people could not pin down this tunnel ?cave . the frist thing i found my self defind if it was a cave or a tunnel ...

yet who made it and when became a matter of trying to relate a given people to the location .. as you can tell that dose not work for groups of people that were beleived to have put the tunnel there . so i felt it must have been older then what was thaught to be its histroy . if it was younger the clues would be fresh and they are not they are faded and parts are missing .. this only happens in long span effects .. the clues and data become lost or miss placed over time ...

so i tols my self . i would go back to the time when this area or location was inhabbited by any man ...then the frist histroy of the cave became clear and it was a cave , defineing Ancient ones or Anasazi . beyond that is all down hill

i still find part of this legend missing , the related peralta , other then the dutchman telling dick holmes about it i could little to no related data between them and the pit it self . and even less relating them to the cave system, i knew they were a wealthy family of the area at one piont in the histroy of the area . but this dose not relate them to the cave or the pit it self .. and i have from almost the start of my research stated i fell they should not have been named the peralta stones ...

the lable is missleding and there is little to no real evidence to prove they had anything what so ever to do with the peralta or related to this legend IMHO

this could also be stated about the jesuits .. other then the 240 pack mules acount and the some what misleeding Kino acount . there little to anything to relate them dirrectly to this legend or the locations them selfs ...

i cant say that about the spainish , the spainish arrow i saw in the cave was a frist hand evidence i saw with my own eyes , when it was put there or why is beside the fact its there .. it did not look to have been facted and much IMHO the same as the stones .. why put something where there is a good chance no one would ever find it ....

thats just unlogical ...

even crazy people do things for a logical reason we may not beable to under stand their logical reasoning . and in this case we try to under stand their pattern of doing what they do or profileing their actions to a labled sequence of events or actions


so prodecting their patterns and the events that take place is not with out a wide scale of controversite but . in this confussion is often a vast wealth of hiden data that waits for us to try to under stand it and it unknown balances and nature of its patterns ...

even in these vast oceans of research we still at times find our selfs ask is the legend real or not ...
the real question should be if it is real why is it real and what evidence is there to defind it or who put it there and then ask where ...

some where in all the confussion is the the answers to all the questions (when where why who and how ).

i cant answer those questions for ther jesuit or the spainish or the indains or the peralta ...


i found my self asking who's left .. so the fact must be IMHO the true group of people related to the cave and the legend of it must have came from out side ot those menssioned ,in the suspect list and their time lemitations ...

 

[ericwt]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

As in all "lost mines and hidden treasures", the truth is seldom what it seems. As much as I think Blindbowman should be totally ignored, I think his rantings may actually have inadvertantly produced a grain of food for thought. I think there is a much bigger picture to look at concerning the Superstition Mountains and select other sites in the Southwest. I think these sites contain items of great value and even greater historical significance. I believe there are people who know the truth and are silent as armies of misguided TH-ers follow the wrong clues to the wrong locations. That's why these places are still "lost".

Although I see your point about this, it is the nature of newer treasure hunter to rush out without verifying a lead. That is just how things are. You can't tell them anything.

See my website for a current post about the reality of some treasure hunters. It is not about the Dutchman but it was another legend.

Personally I ruled out the "Lost Dutchman" story years ago as a realistic lead to pursue. It is a fascinating tale, like all treasure legends are.

But there are several people who went out to find the Dutchman's treasure and they never came back. Was it the fault of same posting on the Internet or some treasure book that they did this?

No, it is the fault of the person blindly believing some treasure tale without verifying it or considering all of the realities of a harsh desert.

The reason I posted here is because he was talking about Shamans and Visions. This is a subject that fascinates me.

I wish all you Dutchman hunters all the gold and treasure that you seek.

 

[the blindbowman]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

my father was a young man working for sear and roebuc as a repairman . he would find him self out in all types of weather and at all hours of the day and night working or comeing and going from one job to another of back and forth from home ... one night late about 3 in the morning . it was a down pooring rain storm and he was driveing on a back road , he saw a man he had seen at his brothers one time at a part . he was a mohawk and out right wet and my dad stoped and gave him a ride they turned out to be best friends for many years he was the chiff of the mohawk nation .. at one time after a few years had past . my father had found me playing with a pet cooperhead snake .around my neck . i did not know the snake was danerous at the time he had become my best friend lol .. my dad later told his friend about what had happend and he came over and look at us kids and there was 7 of us and he pionted me right out and he went and got a black bead and gave it to me and told me some day he will be a great shaman a great white indain ... i have never forgotten the look in his eyes as he was danceing in the rain with about 35 other indains and all at once he looked right at me eye to eye . it was like magic of some of the spirit , he never mist a step i still have the hand made stone black bead on my shamanchi beads ..

i watch them dance in the rain for hours that night and when i came back the next day , there was no sign anyone had ever even been there , the grass was like they had never dance there or change the nature of the area /. then i realized it was my nature they had changed ...

i guess seeing something like that changes a person ...

so when it rains i sense the dance and the chanting of the thunder gods , i can not help my self for my being was to dance with them again .. you guys may never under stand me . i wish you could ...i could see the rain drops stop in med air and time and space let them dance the rain dance and the rain was still and did not fall at times .in that pooring rain was magic of the shaman spirits and they knew it and the nature of it was breath takeing to the soul this is what i feel when i am in the mts ...

i feel the Anceint ones once danced there ....

i find my self wondering what was happend to my people

where have they gone

has time taken them away

or are they still there waiting for mr to find them ..

creation ,time and space shares it self with the shaman .he becomes a vast part of everything and anything

yet it all begains with knowing and under standing the being within and the nature of his being and that around him ...



what treasures of man can be more valueable then his being within ... ?


at times i find my self alone in a world time and place full of people alone without those that under stand me and what i am ...

they want to make me what they can under stand or what they beleive i should be


i am me

as their bare feet danced in the rain as their footprints vanished in to time and space their beings will for dance in my heart ..

i am lost in your white mans world and i can not hide in this white skin from who is within

i am the great shaman of years long ago told to those that danced . the earth and the rain and the thunder gods call me and i hear their sweet song on the windows of time


they look into my eyes and see a blue eye . they look at the color of my skin and think whitey , i cry inside as i see them for who they have become ...

i am 3 in one

i find my self here by the river of life of your time . i can not go up stream and i can not go down stream . all i can do is hope for rain and the thunderd gods to come and set me free ...

well i leave footprints ...


will anyone look to see or even care enough to look



a way much harsher reality then any desert !

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Oro,

For anyone contemplating a trip to San Francisco, I would suggest that you first read:

"Fools' Gold" by Robert Sikorsky. Page 4 lists "Acknowledgements". On the list is this:

"The Wells Fargo Bank, History Room, San Francisco; University of Heidelberg, Records Division; General Services Administration, National Archives, Federal Records Centers at Denver, San Francisco and Washington, D. C.; United States Mint, Office of the Director, Washington, D. C.; A. L. Flagg Foundation, Phoenix.

While I am not vouching for the veracity of Mr. Sikorsky's "facts", there is no doubt that he at least looked up the locations that would house the records we are discussing and, he states no records were found linking Jacob Waltz to any gold shipments to San Francisco.

On pages 122 and 123, he gives the names of the people he talked to.

I have one more question for you. What were the dates (years) given for the Waltz shipments? I am assuming you wrote down the pertinent facts, since you were not allowed to make copies. Most of the documents can be copied today.....for a price.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Greetings,

Blindbowman wrote:

the spainish arrow i saw in the cave was a frist hand evidence i saw with my own eyes , when it was put there or why is beside the fact its there .. it did not look to have been facted and much IMHO the same as the stones .. why put something where there is a good chance no one would ever find it ....

BB I am not sure why you insist on calling a petroglyph of an arrow you found in a cave a "Spanish arrow" when the arrow symbol is one of the most common Amerindian symbols used in petroglyphs. How can you be absolutely certain this was left by Spaniards, and not by Amerindians? Of course what is in a name, whether it is called a Spanish arrow or an ancient Anasazi arrow, however the implications are quite different. If you think about some of the factors in that theory, like 240 mules in a pack train, such a huge train of animals and their handlers would almost certainly leave behind much more evidence, as well as a "paper trail" in Spanish, Mexican or Jesuit archives.

Cactusjumper wrote:

While I am not vouching for the veracity of Mr. Sikorsky's "facts", there is no doubt that he at least looked up the locations that would house the records we are discussing and, he states no records were found linking Jacob Waltz to any gold shipments to San Francisco.

On pages 122 and 123, he gives the names of the people he talked to.

I have one more question for you. What were the dates (years) given for the Waltz shipments? I am assuming you wrote down the pertinent facts, since you were not allowed to make copies. Most of the documents can be copied today.....for a price.

Well Cactusjumper you are sure free to believe Mr Sikorsky over myself, I have zero problem there and it is not my "mission" in life to try to make a "believer" out of you. However I would still suggest that you personally make the visit to the Wells Fargo archives in SF, and look for yourself. No need to rely on my word or that of Mr Sikorsky or anyone else that way.

A side note here, but I did not say that Waltz shipped gold ore to San Francisco, his shipment was to the mint in Philadelphia if memory serves. Sorry but my handwritten notes are in a filing cabinet in the front of the truck box, and having gotten most of the truck now loaded it would be quite a pain just to get at it. Besides, my handwritten notes were not a photocopy, and you now believe that Wells Fargo allows photocopies of their archives for a fee, but access to their archives IS restricted and you might NOT be allowed to photocopy anything. So bring a pen and paper, if you do make the visit. In my own experience, it has always been more productive to do my own investigating, as in looking through records personally, rather than to simply ask someone who works there, as their interest as a public servant in finding things FOR you, is not necessarily on the same level as your own. Due diligence, as they say.

I do not remember the dates of the shipments, except that the first one was in 1878. The shipments were NOT all sent to the same place, but it stuck in my mind that one was to the US mint. Of course, perhaps I imagined it all, and made up handwritten notes to fill two file cabinets full just to be "eccentric". Like I said before, don't take my word for it, check it out yourself. Another side note, if anyone is hoping to find a great amount of detail in the old records such as in stagecoach robberies etc you are in for a disappointment, almost all entries are very short as in a single sentence, you are apt to have better luck in such cases looking through old newspaper accounts which have much more detail.

Thank you for the voucher Randy, I have great trust in you as well.

Good luck and good hunting to you, and I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Oro,

Many researchers have investigated the story of Waltz's ore shipments. When it comes to the LDM, I doubt each and every writer........all of them.

As for my friend Randy's "voucher".......He has a poor record in judging the honesty and character of people he has yet to meet. Anyone who knows Randy will likely tell you the same thing.....including, I would bet, Randy himself. He is learning the truth of "trust but verify".

One of the researchers who looked into this part of the legend, was Glenn Magill. These statements can be found on pages 60 and 61 of "The Killer Mountains":

"More frustrating still were his attempts to track down Waltz's ore shipments. According to legend, Waltz and his partner, Jacob Wiser, had shipped more than a quarter of a million dollars' worth of gold to the San Francisco Mint from various points in Arizona Territory, including Phoenix, Florence, Casa Grande, and Pinal.
An even dozen letters were necessary before Magill learned that the appropriate United States Mint ledgers were now stored in the San Francisco Center of the National Archives.
An equal number were necessary before permission was obtained for a San Francisco friend to search them.
The search netted nothing. Except for the names of a few individual ore buyers and some large mines such as the Silver King, shipments were listed mostly under the names of banks, businesses and stage companies. In Waltz's time, when a man cashed in his gold, the common practice was to sell it to an ore buyer or to a stage line, in this case Wells Fargo.
An inquiry to the History Room of Wells Fargo Bank in San Francisco brought the information that the old stage records no longer existed."........Destroyed by the 1906 fire?

That makes two researcher into the legend that, pretty much, come up with the same story. I believe more could be found. Magill was trying to find any evidence that would support the LDM legend. As a Private Detective, I would imagine he did a pretty thorough job of it.

I doubt the truthfulness of Magill and Sikorsky, as well as all of the other books that have been written. You can see that you are in good company here.

All of this has nothing to do with the veracity of Oroblanco, rather it reflects the nature of the legends and accounts relating to all things "Dutchman". Two other pieces of "evidence" that looked authentic, were the draft for $7000 sent to Waltz's sister in Kansas and the ship's manifest showing Jacob Waltz and Jacob Weiss listed as passangers into this country. Both documents have some problems.

As always, "evidence" can always be forged to support someones story, or to sell to the unwary buyer/author. Not saying that's what happened here, but it's something to keep in mind.

Like every other story that has come along concerning the LDM, if possible, I will test yours. It's just my nature, so don't take it personally. I would love to one day post.....Oro was right about those documents, saw them myself.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Old Dog]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Bowman
Please don't start hat kind of stuff.
It creates bad feelings about you where there were none.

saying things like that only confirm what a bunch of people are already thinking.

OD

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

Randy,

"That's not entirely true. It only happened once"

That statement fits right up there with "I didn't enhale", but I will accept your judgement of your personal/easy going habits.

No offense meant....thought you knew.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

HOLA compadres,

I have not found my notes, but did find one set of sources that can be checked, which describe gold being disposed of by one Jacob Waltz:

In 1882 Walz made a trip to the mine, getting two burro loads of roe which he sold at Tucson to Charlie Myers for $1600. Colonel Poston, George McClarty and Charlie Brown saw the ore and asked questions.

(Mitchell, Lost Mines of the Great Southwest pp 127)

Mrs. Thomas, according to her story, had dug up a can containing nearly $1500 in gold from the yard, and cashed it at Goldman and Co's store.

(ibid, pp 129)

Now I do not live in or near Phoenix, but if the reader does or happens to be there, a little investigating in historical archives there might prove fruitful.

Randy, it is good that you have a good sense of humor, our acerbic friend seems to have a rather low opinion of us. However our cactus-jumping friend may view us, I do appreciate your vote of confidence - I owe you yet another one buddy.

your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

As for my friend Randy's "voucher".......He has a poor record in judging the honesty and character of people he has yet to meet. Anyone who knows Randy will likely tell you the same thing.....including, I would bet, Randy himself. He is learning the truth of "trust but verify".


Joe Ribaudo

That's not entirely true. It only happened once

That's correct. He knew Bill, but never officially met BB.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: histroy of the cave /tunnel

B,

"You'll have to excuse the interruption, but, in what area of your mind to you pretend to know what kind of relationship or inter-dispersment of knowledge that might exist between Mr. Oro and DJUI5?"

No need to excuse yourself, my dear, as you hold a special place in my heart and are forgiven for any offense.....in advance.

As for which part of my mind makes that judgement about my friend Randy.....That would be the very small portion of my brain that still works....on occassion.

Take care,

Joe