Help with ID on military looking pin

[Bill_S]

Went to a local park but ended up going to an area that I had detected before but did not put much time into it and never really found anything. I ended up finding some lead and a pin. I found all the lead pretty deep. Some of the smaller ones were close to 9 inches. Found the pin in the same area. Dont know if it's more modern or something from the civil war era too. I have searched on Google but cant find anything. Any ideas. Thanks.

 

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[allan]

Sure, blame it on me ! check out this pic, see anything interesting ?

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

allan ~

I'm sorry to burst you bubble, but that's a ...

"Knights Templar"

I have seen hundreds of similar pictures - most of which include the Christian cross.

 

[allan]

I know its the sword pin on his chest I am refering to, on the ribbon

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

For other readers besides Allan and SodaBottleBob, who already know:
Knights Templar fraternal emblems can often be recognized by their very prominent inclusion of the "simple" form of the Christian Cross.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Such as this ...

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

allan ~ Here's a little present for you ...

The picture below is not based on some whimiscal fantasy of mine - but actual research!

[ Possible ]

"KOC = Knights of Color"

{ Requires additional research to either confirm or refute }

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Not meaning to be argumentative, but "explanatory" for other readers:
That Templar sword-pin emblem shows the Maltese Cross, which, although it is a Christian variation, is not the "simple" form form of the Christian Cross. The previous photo (posted by Allan) shows the "simple" form on the Knights Templar hat, and on the over-the-shoulder sash. (The "simple" form is intended to represent the form of the wooden cross Christ was crucified upon.)

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Snippet to spark your interest ...

... in 1912, the United States Supreme Court ruled in favor of the Black Pythians, who lost $25,000 in legal costs. Once established, the Colored Knights of Pythias performed much the same function as the white organization. The "imperative commands" of the "Colored Knights" were "to visit the homes where lacerated hearts are bleeding; to assuage the sufferings of a brother; bury the dead; care for the widow, and educate the orphan. ..."

 

[allan]

Colored Knights of Pythias This is a small black order, formed when blacks discovered that they would not be admitted to the Knights proper.Certain states would not allow them in ,Georgia and a few others so they formed the colored/negro KOP. Thats where I have been concentrating my search's following any reference to black/negro/colored lodge references from the list of known UR lodges that I posted. Local papers seem to have a lot of articles but few pictures of any quality. also the encampments usually had lists of attendee;s. a quick email to the Knight's of pythias museum would answer this , but there is no challenge in that

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Allan ~

IF ~ If ~ if ... this leads to an identification ~ it was you who put us on the trail ~ and you who I personally acknowledge with credit.

SBB

 

[allan]

I found a great read on the KOP , In it is mention of Grand Divisions , use the text search for specific words http://www.archive.org/stream/historyofknights00webb#page/170/mode/2up/search/grand+division

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

allan ~

Thanks. That's an interesting book you posted. I thumbed through the entire thing looking for tid-bits of information ... on pages 109 thru 113 I found the following regarding "Regalia." (I did not find anything about crossed swords pins).

But in one part of the regalia section it does talk about cerimonial "aprons" where it indicated that different aprons were marked differently depending on an individual's status in the organization. Example: They were marked (embroidered) ...

"B" for Knight
"C" for Esquire
"F" for Page

But whether the "C for Esquire" has anything to do with the "C" on Bill_S's pin, I can't say, and really can't even venture a guess at this point. But I have started a search for the aprons in the hope they may reveal something, but so far have only found one, which is questionable as to whether it is even a Knights of Pythias apron or not. At present, good, close up pictures of Knights of Pythias aprons are just about as rare as Bill_S's pin. I intend to keep searching with the hope of eventually finding something.

And, yes ... I have seriously curtailed my search time on this topic.

SBB

Here are examples of two aprons. The first one is a possible "Knights of Pythias" ~ shield shaped. And the second one is a definite "Knights Templar" ~ triangle shaped. 99.9% of the Templar aprons are like the one shown here. The shield shaped one (although unidentified) is the only one like it I have seen. But irregardless, neither one of them has any letters on it. Note: Both organizations used "triangle" symbols.

 

[allan]

Those are KOP , I think when they visit another chapter they wear it also. I saw a guy on ebay, I think,,,,,,,, that makes them at home and possibly in one of the pythias museum sites. the FCB is for fraternity charity and brotherhood or something like that. But these are not U.R items.did you read the section on the adoption of a us military style regiment company , division thing? says it didn't last long so maybe it is related to why there are so few of those pins. The book has a lot of info in it.www.archive has a search book titles box also, I was amazed at all the books on coins and insignia and a few other topics but few relating to the KOP or UR .I checked the read only box and it cuts down on books they dont have available.still looking lol .

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

allan ~

I will bet you a root beer the "triangle shaped" apron with the skull and crossed bones is "not" a Knights of Pythias! It is "Templar." I have seen dozens of them. As I said, I'm not sure about the shield shaped one ... it's the only one like it that I have seen.

And, yes ... I read some of the Uniform Rank stuff. But I have to admit, I am not 100% convinced just yet that either Bill_S's pin or the W. VA./30 pin are related to the UR. That is still an open question in my opinion. I believe there is still a possibility that the 30 on the W. VA. pin is a lodge number.

( I realize the pins have U (Lily) R on the handles - But so does a lot of KOP stuff )

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

allan ~

I am still researching this, so it's a little hard to explain, but I am currently looking for a "bona fide" explaination regarding the 30 on the West Virginia pin. (Other than what I just posted about the "Esquire = C" I have pretty much given up on trying to figure out what the letters on Bill_S's pin might stand for. I still believe that it is not original and was altered sometime - meaning the letters could stand for just about anything). So I have switched my now limited research time to trying to identify the West Virginia pin instead. It is original, and I believe that by identifying it, and what it was used for, will in turn also identify Bill_S's pin.

I do not want to be a thorn in anybody's side, but I would like to see it proved with a good picture where any of the Knights of Pythias "numbers" are anything but Lodge numbers. (A solid text reference would suffice as well). Every "picture" I have seen with a number on it refers to a lodge and not a regiment or anything related to the Uniform Ranks. The best examples of this number system I can think of are the numerous ribbons I have seen, which I am now starting a photo collection of. Notice the wording on the example ribbons shown below. Both display lodge numbers. I am also in the process of trying to find matching ribbons for each one of the 20+ kepi hats I have pictures of. I have just started this particular search and expect it to take considerable time.

Bottom Line?

I believe "Lodge" research and not "UR" research will eventually identify "Both" pins___

SBB

1. Anchor Lodge, no.31 ~ Cape Girardeau, Missouri
2. Eureka Lodge, no. 15 ~ Watson, W. VA.

 

[allan]

wva- wheeling west virginia
30 the ur lodge number is 30 in wheeling
so that would mean the top is the state and under would be the lodge number
here is from your post "He was also a past master of Ohio Valley Lodge No. 30, Knights of Pythias, located at Wheeling, West Virginia."

on Bills. pin its we have at least 1 missing letter if and only if it isnt a number , 2 state choices mo or co and it was found in missouri MO
under it is a C and there is a chapter of the ur listed on my ur lodges post as Mound City, Company C, (Uniformed Rank)

on my post on that pythias book pages 168 and 169 tell of the short lived grand divisions read here for free http://www.archive.org/stream/historyofknights00webb#page/168/mode/2up/search/grand+division where they used a us military "style" to organize the ranks

being as the pin is military in nature and the UR is the military arm of the KOP formed from kop members , I have to believe its UR insignia
Early in the group's history, some Pythians formed the Uniformed Rank, which adopted military terminology for its organization. Swords owned by a member of the Uniformed Rank might be inscribed with the acrony, "UR," a dove, or a lily. (The Uniformed Rank was banned in the organization in the 1950s.) this group is known as the army of the lily.

here is a picture that you posted that was the approved design for all chapters of the UR KOP in 1905
also I have a few other things like my version of bills pin and I will never bet a root beer lol those aprons and bibs and collars all vary a little it seems regardless of the fraternity, 1 kop item may be almost exact to a knights templar at a glance , the triangle is big in a few of the group.
The degrees of Pythian Knighthood in a subordinate lodge (or "Castle") are:

Page
Esquire
Knight
also I was wrong about what FCB stood for so to clarify and correct an earlier mistake the acronym "FCB," which stands for the Pythian motto ("Friendship, Charity, Benevolence")


So I say let's keep looking where we will and see what we can find out. Because it has me sucked in and I can't let go

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

allan ~

"Roger ~ Wilco ~ 10/4"



But it will be almost imposible to convince me that the letters on Bill_S's pin are original. I honestly believe the original letters/numbers were removed - new ones tacked on - and that they could stand for "anything." So I have decided to completely discount it and focus on the W. VA. pin instead. One will eventually identify the other.

Good luck!

Your buddy,

Bob

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

allan ~

Please keep your eyes peeled for the highest UR Regiment number you come across. Most of what I have seen are First ~ Second ~ Third. Have you ever seen a Regiment number higher than Five? And what do you know about "Company" numbers? What is the highest Company number you have seen? This Regiment/Company/Brigade/Battalion/Division stuff is new to me and somewhat confusing.

The picture below of a U.R.K.P. (Uniform Rank Knights of Pythias) ribbon will better illustrate why I ask the above questions. The ribbon is one of very few that does not have the word "Lodge" on it. Notice where it says ...

Marathon Company
No. 37
Second Regiment
U.R.K.P.
Boston, Mass.
1908

Thanks.

Bob

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

allan ~

I just wanted to do this update and reiterate that during the past week or so I have looked at dozens of old "photographs" of the following Knights of Pythias ...

1. Lodge members
2. UR members
3. African American members
4. Women's auxiliaries
5. Pins ~ Badges ~ Uniforms
6. Etc; etc.

... and (other than the W. VA. example) have not seen another "Crossed Swords" pin like the one in question anywhere. So in case if we have failed to realize this already, the pin(s) just cannot be a normal everyday pins. If they were, surely by now we would have come across at least a couple of other examples.

Thus, I am of the opinion that for some unexplainable reason we are either looking in the wrong places, or else the pins were a one-shot deal used by one or just a very small handful of Lodges/Regiments/etc; and likely were not authorized by the Grand-daddy Temples.

So if we or anyone else is ever going to solve this mystery, I highly recommend we start looking "way outside of the box." And the only area I can think of that I haven't already researched are "Youth Groups." At the moment I can't tell you anything about them, other than I have seen references to them. And if it the pins are youth group and/or school related, this might explain their rarity and why we are having such a difficult time finding pictures of them. There is something missing here that we haven't put our fingers on yet. I believe by finding the "missing link" will be what will ultimately identify both pins and solve this thing once and for all.

SBB

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

And speaking of ... "Outside of the box"

Did you know that the Knights of Pythias sold a brand of "Cigars?"

The first picture below is of one of their cigar box lables.

And what's up with the second picture? ... "Flu Flu ~ The Land of Fun"

Maybe the pins were a preimum given away with cigars or a souvenir of "Flu Flu Land"