Help with ID on military looking pin

[Bill_S]

Went to a local park but ended up going to an area that I had detected before but did not put much time into it and never really found anything. I ended up finding some lead and a pin. I found all the lead pretty deep. Some of the smaller ones were close to 9 inches. Found the pin in the same area. Dont know if it's more modern or something from the civil war era too. I have searched on Google but cant find anything. Any ideas. Thanks.

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

~ One more ~

Key word: "Souvenir"

This ad is from an 1896 Programme & Souvenir booklet of the Knights of Pythias for their 19th Biennial Convention of the Supreme Lodge held at Cleveland, Ohio, August 24-31st, 1896.

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Bramblefind ~

This one is especially for you. It is a souvenir postcard and available to purchase for $5.87 at the following website.

Link: http://postcards.bidstart.com/K-of-P-Knights-of-Pythias-Convention-1910-Lima-Ohio-/21347646/a.html

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Breezie ~

I know I'm supposed to be on a "time-out" but, like allan, I seem to be hooked on this stuff and keep leap-frogging from one new clue to another.

Anyway, if you are still following this crazy thread, I selected the following especially for you. I know you live on the east coast and thought you might be interested in reading the following article. It pertains to a Wheeling, West Virginia "Pythian Sisters" auxiliary of the Knights of Pythias.

If you look at it, you will have to scroll down to about mid-page and look for the paragraph that starts with ...

"The Order of Pythian Sisters was founded a quarter-century after the Daughters of Rebekah ..."

The entire article is eleven parsgraphs long and contains some interesting information. The two paragraphs that caught my attention most read ...

"The Pythian Sisters came to West Virginia with the organization of Hermion Temple No.1 in Wheeling in August 1890. This was organized at the initiative of a K of P Lodge in Wheeling. At first, the West Virginia temples were under the direct control of the Supreme Temple, but, in 1897, Pennsylvania and West Virginia joined to form a Grand Temple. On October 11, 1905, the West Virginia Grand Temple was organized."

"Each temple was encouraged to "take up at least one department of this work." The Pythian Sisters did take action on at least one social issue. At their 1912 convention, as West Virginians debated a state constitutional amendment on prohibition, the Pythian Sisters passed a resolution vowing to work "in every legitimate and Christian way in our power" for the ratification of the state prohibition amendment."



Note: I am trying to find additional confirmation to connect the W. VA. pin to something more specific than just a Lodge. It may be related to something else like a convention pin. Also note that is says "Temple No. 1" and refers to "another lodge."

Should you look into this, I thank you in advance for your time and interest. If you are not interested, that's okay, too.

Link: http://www.wvculture.org/history/journal_wvh/wvh49-7.html


Bob

 

[allan]

The order's membership was originally restricted to white males. In 1880, an organization called "The Supreme Lodge Knights of Pythias, North and South America, Europe, Asia, and Africa" was founded; it reserved its membership to Blacks and Asians. The original order sued, alleging that the new order used the name without authorization. The case reached the U.S. Supreme Court which ruled that the new order was allowed to use the name. CRESWILL v. GRAND LODGE KNIGHTS OF PYTHIAS OF GEORGIA, 225 U.S. 246 (1912) the original kop did not allow black members till 1950. All else being equal as far as rituals and regalia , since I "believe" that both of the pins are related to known "black" UR ranks I think we can limit the dates of them to between 1880 to 1905 when the crossed rifle was approved. I wonder if they were part of the grand division "experiment" that only lasted til 1884 ? that would explain the lack of examples .

So to find information on black groups the name to look for would be The Supreme Lodge Knights of Pythias, North and South America, Europe, Asia, and Africa"

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

allan ~

Where did you read this ... (and did you mean sword but said rifle?)

"1880 to 1905 when the crossed rifle was approved"

Thanks,

Bob

 

[allan]

Had it on notepad on my computer and have read it a few times, and I meant the crossed rifles design was approved in 1905 , I will get a link for you buddy,I started using the Supreme lodge in my searchs and have found a few more links I hadn't seen

 

[allan]

here are 2 decent links and I am looking for the text above

http://www.stichtingargus.nl/vrijmetselarij/pythias_en.html

http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=225&invol=246

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

allan ~

Thanks ~ No hurry!

~ * ~

So there you have it folks ...

Allan says ... "Possible African American Uniform Rank Pin"

Bob says .... "Possible Youth or Convention Souvenir Pin"

Don't tell Allan I said this, but I am really starting to wonder if either one of us is right? It will likely be one of TheCannonballGuy's collectors or some other outside source who eventually solves this riddle.

SBB

 

[allan]

I heard that BOB ! check this out , http://www.hks.harvard.edu/organizing/tools/Files/Duty to the Race.pdf lots of reading lol but it does have some useful info. I am sticking to black UR pin

 

[allan]

I saw the ending on this Tactics and manual for the uniform rank Knights of Pythias. Prepared under authority of the Supreme lodge K. of P. of the world,1884 it caught my eye also saw it on an item from 1888 .Wonder if thats a way of deferentiating themselves from the whites only KOP groups still looking for that and the 1888 "catalogue" on uniforms and insignia etc , I saw a few of the items on usenet but I am not a member , but may try out the 2 week free trial

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Keep up the good research but honestly you guys lost me several pages back. Could you guys sum up the past 2 pages in one paragraph for the mentally handicapped like myself? I got lost after the UR clamshell logo was solved.

Here are my 2 cents: Someone needs to contact the owner of the WVA pin and invite him to join the discussion. Ask him to post better pics front and back. Does his have the same UR clamshell logo? Does his pin have a manufacturers name? These are questions that can be answered with better pics.

I think you guys have gone as far as you can with the OPs pin. Concentrate on the WVA pin (I believe Bob mentioned this) At least the WVA pin is complete and may hold the missing clues.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Big Cy ~

Thanks for stopping by. I hope all is well in Florida.

I have decided to go ahead and contact the forum where I found the W. VA. pin. And as for an update, I'd say my post #368 pretty much sums things up the way they stand now. But I will go back through the entire thread for you and glean what I consider to be the best of the best clues. The main thing for me is trying to determine ...

...exactly what the pin(s) was intended for and who among the KOP used it?

( My current focus is strictly with the W. VA. pin ).

Bob

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Big Cy ~

Thanks for stopping by. I hope all is well in Florida.

I have decided to go ahead and contact the forum where I found the W. VA. pin. And as for an update, I'd say my post #368 pretty much sums things up the way they stand now.

OK
Allan says ... "Possible African American Uniform Rank Pin"

Bob says .... "Possible Youth or Convention Souvenir Pin"

You need to join and be approved I think. I tried but got a little frustrated.

What if the WVA pin doesnt have the UR clamshell? Would we be back to square 1?

 

[allan]

I know , this thread has gone all over , here is my take the WVA pin has 30 under it and that one lodge in wheeling had a union ranks group with that number and its a black chapter , on Bill's pin the C is there and one chapter out of all the UR that had a company C was a UR black chapter.and it was in mound city which is not too far from the pin was found. The supreme knights were a seperate group of Knight's Of Pythias from the White's only Knight's Of Pythias. . So that what leads me to think they are from the black/negro group. the supreme Knights put out a copy of their tactics and uniforms I believe in 1888 and I am still looking for a copy, and I believe that has the "what goes where insignia" guide. sent out a few emails to see what comes back

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

allan ~

I know you like links and reading, and don't recall your posting this one. Scroll to the middle of page 32 and it ends at the top of page 35.

Bob

pg 32 thru 35

safe pdf link: http://dig.lib.niu.edu/ISHS/ishs-2004spring/ishs-2004spring27.pdf

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

It seems to be rare and there is little information on these crossed sword items. Myself, I sure would like to get a manufacturers mark off the WVA to help pin it down, so to speak..

Some manufacturer had to have made these and in at least 2 different states.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Actually there may be different manufacturers as the first one appears to be cast and the WVA may be machine stamped. A stamped item would need machinery and may be more likely to be marked.

The first one may even be altered. We need to study the only other known pin (WVA) for comparison.

 

[allan]

I am hoping someone gets a reply,I haven't had much luck finding any catalogs of the period that supplied fraternal items . Nice link Bob thats the first time I have read the story in its entirety, I have found bits and pieces of the whole story, but none that explained it so well. There was one company that was a KOP lodge that supplied regalia and such, Bob posted its name somewhere in this thread. Ame.s company also supplied items under it's varied name's over the years but I have only gone thru one.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

It should be in a manufacturers catalog.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Big Cy ~

Here's the best I could do with highlighting the front and back of the W. VA. pin. Other than the letters/number, I honestly believe it's the same pin as Bill_S's. If there is a makers mark, it might be on the handle on the lower right. Zoom to 400% and see what you think.

Bob