has montezumas tomb been found ...?

[Oroblanco]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

HOLA amigo Joe!
Yes we have, (mea culpa if memory serves) and I hope that our friend Lamar will soon take you off ignore. I am pretty sure that if you had intended to be insulting and/or offensive, there would be no ambiguity in your words.

All is well here, even making progress better than hoped. Most of the ground is not even frozen, which has allowed us to have several brief outings with the detectors - hard to believe in February and early March in Dakota. (I got to tell you too - I've been eyeing those old wheel ruts of the Cheyenne stage road while at work, now if I could only talk the boss into letting me fool around there! ) I hope all is well with you and yours and you are having a great winter season, and will keep sending that nice warm weather north!
your friends in 'Dakota Territory'
Roy & Beth

 

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[lamar]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Dear CubFan64;
The dangers associated with mistranslations are great and it would certainly behoove the well rounded researcher to perform their own translations, as much as they are able to, that is. There exists countless examples of mistranslated works and I am sure there will be many more to come.

Please bear in mind that, using our current language, English, we are able to express over 10,000 different emotional states, whereas in Latin we can only express around 500 and in classical Greek a mere 100. This is where problems typically arise. One should never use an emotional state to translate a document where did not exist previously. For a good example, we can use the Lords' Prayer, which was originally written in Greek and later translated into Latin and studied by legions of Roman Catholic theologians. Then, in a fit of reform, the prayer was translated into English. It was mangled beyond belief during the Latin-to-English so well translation and I use this prayer as an example only because practically everyone knows it by heart:
Pater noster, qui es in caelis, sanctificetur Nomen tuum.
Our Father, who art in Heaven, hallowed by Thy name.
Our Father, who is in Heaven, sacred is Your Name(the name of God was so sacred that it could not be said aloud).
Adveniat regnum tuum. Fiat voluntas tua, sicut in caelo et in terra.
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on Earth and it is in Heaven.
Your kingdom shall come, and your will shall be done, even on Earth as it is done in Heaven(There will be heaven on Eath and the dead shall rise and walk the Earth again).
Panem nostrum quotidianum da nobis hodie, et dimitte nobis debita nostra sicut et nos dimittimus debitoribus nostris
Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
For giving us our daily food, and forgiving us our sins while we forgive those who have sinned aginst us.(For the bountiful gifts which You have given to us, for the forgiveness of our sins and for giving us each of us a conscious, thus allowing those who have mistreated us to be forgiven)
Et ne nos inducas in tentationem, sed libera nos a malo.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil..(God does NOT lead us into temptation, that would be Satans' job. This mistranslation is a horrible butchery of the Latin text.)
And do not permit us to be tempted(by Satan), instead keep us free from evil(from Satan).

From the above bold faced translation, one can immediately read the untentional mockery of the Latin prayer, which was translated from Latin into English over the course of perhaps a week or so, by a handful of Protestant reformers. In their sincere attempt to provide an accurate translation, they did not take into consideration the context of the prayer, rather they attempted a word-for-word type of tranlsation. And because of their mistakes, for centuries countless English-speaking Christians have been reciting the prayer incorrectly.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Dear Lamar,

Your example of the "Lord's Prayer" is and excellent one. I would submit that the Latin , being the third translation, really brings home your point. The original, in Aramaic, reads as follows:

Oh thou, from whom the breath of life comes, who fills all realms of sound, light and vibration.

May your light be experienced in my utmost holiest.

Your Heavenly Domain approaches.

Let Your will come true - in the universe, just as on earth.

Give us wisdom for our daily need.

Detach the fetters of faults that bind us, like we let go the guilt of others.

Let us not be lost in superficial things, but let us be freed from that what keeps us off from our true purpose.

From you comes the all-working will, the lively strength to act, the song that beautifies all and renews itself from age to age.

Sealed in trust, faith and truth.
____________________________________________________________

Each language that was used to translate the prayer injected it's own understanding of the meaning of the words from the previous translation. The question that remains, for me, is if anything is lost in the various translations? Perhaps some of the finer shades of meaning, but what about the underlying message?

Do you consider the Latin version more expressive of intent than the original, or was a great deal lost in that third translation?

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Dear cactusjumper;
Thank you for the compliment my friend, however, the original text of Our lords' Prayer was not written in Aramic, rather it was written in Classical Greek. Many people incorrectly think that The New Testament was first recorded in the Aramaic/Syriac/Assyrian family of languages, however nothing could be further from the truth, my friend!

The entire New Testament was originally written in what we now call Classical Greek and this is because by the time Jesus walked the Earth, the entire Middle East scholastic community recorded virtually everything in the Greek language. This included the Romans in the Middle East as well. The existing Latin texts of the Romans in the Middle East during the time of Jesus were all originally transcribed in Greek then translated into Latin upon reaching Rome.

Therefore, both references to Our Lords' Prayer, the first in the Gospel of Matthew 6:9–13 and the second being the Gospel of Luke 11:2–4, were recorded in Greek and copies of these original texts remain housed in the Vatican libraries today. The original Greek text from the Gospel of Matthew is as follows:
Πάτερ ἡμῶν ὁ ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς·
ἁγιασθήτω τὸ ὄνομά σου·
ἐλθέτω ἡ βασιλεία σου·
γενηθήτω τὸ θέλημά σου, ὡς ἐν οὐρανῷ καὶ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς·
τὸν ἄρτον ἡμῶν τὸν ἐπιούσιον δὸς ἡμῖν σήμερον·
καὶ ἄφες ἡμῖν τὰ ὀφειλήματα ἡμῶν,
ὡς καὶ ἡμεῖς ἀφίεμεν τοῖς ὀφειλέταις ἡμῶν·
καὶ μὴ εἰσενέγκῃς ἡμᾶς εἰς πειρασμόν,
ἀλλὰ ῥῦσαι ἡμᾶς ἀπὸ τοῦ πονηροῦ.


In all reality, translating from Classical Greek into Latin is not such a difficult chore as both languages share the same root structures, therefore the emotional sentiments of the two languages are very similiar. And since both languages were used at roughly the same time, many scholars of the period were bi-lingual, making the task of translating an sentiment from Greek into Latin much easier.

In all reality, the Lords' Prayer was not translated into Aramaic until sometime after the 1st century AD, therefore Latin remains the second translation of the Lords' Prayer. Strictly as an aside, the Roman Catholic church recognizes the Classical Greek texts of the New Testamant and as such they remain valid in the eyes of the Vatican. If there are any Roman Catholics who wish to hear the Mass in the traditional Greek form, that is also considered to be a valid form of the Mass. In fact, the Roman Catholic church traditionally celebrated Mass in Classical Greek until about the 4th century AD, when they switched over to Latin. The Orthodox family of churches still considers the classical Greek Mass to be the true Mass of Jesus and the 12 Apostles.

I hope this clarifies things somewhat.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Dear Lamar,

I am aware that some studies of the Gospels strongly suggest that "Jesus habitually taught in Aramaic, not in Greek." It seems likely that "The Lord's Prayer" was originally delivered in Aramaic and later translated into Greek and then into Latin from the Greek translation.

The real problem, as I understand it, came when the prayer was translated back into Aramaic. The exact Aramaic wording would have been lost and could only be approximated. In truth, it seems that neither Jesus nor his disciples wrote any of his words down at time he was speaking. That was the Jewish custom in Jesus' day. Only the Old Testament was written. All other teaching by the Rabbis was oral. The Gospel story was, of course, not translated until around fifty-years after Jesus' death. I believe that heralded the end of the Aramaic Gospel documents.

I would not say you are wrong in this, as I am not educated in the subject. I do find it an interesting question though. Your using the Lord's Prayer as an example of the difficulty of translating history accurately, would be magnified a thousandfold if we were translating it from a language that outdates the birth of Jesus by close to one thousand years.

In all probability, we could probably do a better job today, than say.......a thousand years ago.

Nice post. Thank you.

Take care,

Joe

 

[pegleglooker]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

hey gang,
aaaaaa cool subject.... But how does Montezuma fit in

PLL

 

[lamar]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Dear group;
There exists two opposing camps of scholars in regards to the New Testament. First, there are the vast majority of theologians and scholars, who believe in the Greek Primacy, which maintain that the entire New Testament was originally written in Koine Greek. Next, there exists a very small minority of Amamaic Primacy scholars, who maintain the New Testament was penned in Aramaic then translated into Greek at a late date. And thirdly, to further confuse matters, there exists a third group who believe in the possibility that the New Testament was written in Koine Greek and Aramaic rather simultaniously.

Koine Greek arrived in the Middle East via the armies of Alexander the Great and it was he who united Greece and colonized the known world from Eygpt to the fringes of India by the year 324BC and for the very first time in history, the entire Middle East knew one language, that is to say, they all knew Koine Greek. Even after the rise of the Roman Empire, Koine Greek was spoken by practically everyone, including the Romans themselves, who conquered Macedonia and reduced it to a Roman Province in the year 148 BC.

It may be also frankly assumed that any time there is mention of Jewish customs or traditions, that text would have been originally written in Greek, as the writings were obviously meant for a tribe of people whom would not have been familiar with Jewish customs or traditions. It may be logically asserted that if the writings were meant for the Jewish people, all mention of Jewish customs and traditions would have been omitted as the Jewish peoples would have certainly been initimately familiar with their own customs and traditions.

Koine Greek remained the lingua franca, or commonly spoken language, throughout the Roman Middle Eastern provinces until at least 300 AD, when it was gradually replaced with Latin. Strictly as an aside, the proponents of the Aramaic Primacy are mostly an Internet-based group and and a such it does NOT consist of accredited theologians or scholars therefore their claims may be repudated with extreme prejudice.

And now, to answer the question, how does Montezuma fit into all of this? He doesn't, however it's an interesting diversion to a discussion which has gone on for seven pages with no concrete conclusions either way. Besides, if a forum member takes away a bit of knowledge from this discussion, then I consider it to be a very good act.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Dear pegleglooker;
I am stating that when doing research, it is many times not enough to take the written data at it's face value. One therefore needs to project themself into the period in question and attempt to understand the imposed sentiments of the writings, instead of merely attempting to perform a word for word translation. Countless misintrepretations result from this method, my friend.

For example, if a Spanish conquistador wrote "I saw a city of gold on the far horizon, shining in the evening sun." this may NOT mean that he actually saw a city made of gold. What he most probably saw was a village of yellow clay reflecting the suns' evening rays through the rising heat waves, thus transforming it into a vast splendid golden city.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[pegleglooker]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

hey Lamar,
I could not have agreed with you any more, the language, the culture, and the politics of the times total dictate what the TRUE meaning of what is said. I have read many books from the 1800's and the language of the their written word can be a bit confusing.

You wrote " if a Spanish conquistador wrote "I saw a city of gold on the far horizon, shining in the evening sun." this may NOT mean that he actually saw a city made of gold. "

In my own opinion, I would have thought that he had come upon a town as the sun was setting, and as the sun set it engulfed the town in what could only be called " a city of gold "...... But then that might be the romantic in me....

PLL

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Good evening, I agree, one must decypher the "intended context" of any translation, this is poorly done in many cases, and here is where many documents in the archives differ..

Just look at how many meanings can be expressed by the simple "OH". or stating "S.O.B," this can run from endearment to extrememe hostility. A literal translation may be far from the origional intent or context.

This was one of the major hurdles that I had in the search for Tayopa.

As for a city of Gold, I have already mentioned the 7 Ciudades de de Cibola on the Sinaloa border in the Barranca de Conijaque. They mixed iron pyrites with the Adobe that they plastered on their outside walls. You can just imagine the effect from a distance in the sun. GOLD, GOLD, GOLD houses

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[JakefaePa]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Please excuse me for butting in , will blindbowman ever return to his thread do you think ? I read most of it last week and as absurd as some of his posts were ...there was one or two that interested me.
One in particular actually , if your out there blindbowman send me a message if youd be so kind.Thanks

 

[lamar]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Dear JakefaePa;
It would seem that our dear friend Blindbowman has given up the quest and has decided to pursue other, more relaxing,(and sane) activities. Or perhaps he was institutionalized? One never knows the effects that the blazing hot Arizona sun can have on a man. This is why proper head protection must always be worn, my friends! Merely wearing a tinfoil hat without a protective outer garment can bake a persons' brain in short order.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Dear Lamar,

Bowman lives in New York, not Arizona.

Tale care.

Joe

 

[lamar]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Dear cactusjumper;
I distinctly recall Bowman telling me that he had been in Arizona. Perhaps he was referring to one of his spiritual forays?
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Yes he claimed to have been in the Superstitions a couple times at least I believe, but as Joe mentioned, he claimed to be living in upper New York state.

As far as what he's up to, I discovered that he had been banned for a month or two from a website forum focused on the supernatural, astral projection, cosmic messages, etc... - kinda hard to imagine how someone with similar views could get booted from there, but he succeeded - I believe it had something to do with his supriority complex kicking into full gear (imagine that!).

He was allowed back on, and I think the last I saw he had spent 1 or 2 days solving the zodiac killer case using some kind of "code breaking skill" that only his amazing mind could solve. He was sending his report in to the Albany, NY FBI - I'm certain they'll give that it's proper attention.

I found it amusing that the majority of folks at this other forum have called him crazy, nonensical, delusional, etc... - again, pretty tough to do!

I have no interest in the other forums he at least used to be a regular on such as Yahooka.com, grasscity.com, weedbay.net so I can't say if he's still active there or not.

 

[JakefaePa]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Early on in the thread another poster who seemed pukka claimed blindbowman gave her a reading and was amazingly accurate ..can we verify that really is the case or just one of his very few fans ?

 

[lamar]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Dear Cubanfan64;
Yes, my friend, Blindbowman was indeed a special man.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Gossamer]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Hello All! Thank you Oro.
I've missed you guys.
But this is something that I need to clear up, a long while ago, BB talked about a ballcourt connected to what he had seen.
I've done a ton of research and much to my surprise/delight/chagrin... the Tempe Museum and the Pueblo Grande talk about a grand pueblo and well duh... the also describe a ballcourt.
So, I take my hat off to BB... sorry he doesn't like us anymore, but I couldn't let this go without acknowledging BB and the fact that BB is right... there is a ballcourt in Phx.
Now I haven't found anything connected with the Sups, but stay tuned.
Janiece

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

Hello All! Thank you Oro.
I've missed you guys.
But this is something that I need to clear up, a long while ago, BB talked about a ballcourt connected to what he had seen.
I've done a ton of research and much to my surprise/delight/chagrin... the Tempe Museum and the Pueblo Grande talk about a grand pueblo and well duh... the also describe a ballcourt.
So, I take my hat off to BB... sorry he doesn't like us anymore, but I couldn't let this go without acknowledging BB and the fact that BB is right... there is a ballcourt in Phx.
Now I haven't found anything connected with the Sups, but stay tuned.
Janiece

Hiya Gossamer! Very good to hear from you again - thought perhaps you'd grown weary of some of our crazy discussions

Regarding BB - I'd have to go back and really look, but I thought his claim was that there was a ballcourt in the Superstitions, not Phoenix.

How's life treating you these days, and how is your research coming?

 

[Cubfan64]

Re: has montezuma's tomb been found ...?

ok, some people argued against a mesoamerican ball court existed in the phoenix area?

that's a good one. i needed that.

I don't have that much interest to go back and dig through all the old posts, but I really don't recall arguments against any possible ballcourts in Phoenix - I honestly thought the contention was that BB claimed to have found a ballcourt in the Superstitions, yet had no photographic evidence (I think his main argument was due to his vision of an Aztec running past him kicking a human head).

I may very well be wrong as I probably wasn't paying that much attention to him by then.