Great Seal Button Backmarks Help

[Bigcypresshunter]

I am assembling a list of US Army Great Seal button backmarks 1902-present.. This seems to be the most complete list available anywhere. With the help of TN members, I am occasionally adding and improving upon it. So far I have over 100 different backmarks. Anyone with a Great Seal button backmark or backmark variation not listed please post the pic and Ill add it. The thread is already so long its not necessary to add anything already pictured. Thanks.

This is how it all started:


I bought 2 bags of small Great Seal of US buttons for a buck at a flea market. Can someone help me date these backmarks? I believe they are all post 1902. I cant find anything else online.

1- Top row SCOVILL MF'G CO WATERBURY (back ungilted)
2- SCOVILL MF'G CO WATERBURY
3- Bottom CITY BUTTON WORKS - N.Y.
4- WATERBURY BUTTON CO.

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

I could mail an example to you. My email is [email protected]

That would be cool. Address coming.

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

Waterbury backmarks.

WATERBURY COMPANIES INC. * is WWII era and after.

WAT CO. unknown variation.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Umm... no, WATERBURY COMPANY INC * should not be after World War 2 -- as proven in another thread. By the way, the button-backmarks in the photo you posted (just above) with that statement say Companies.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

It was a typo. The buttons are WATERBURY COMPANIES INC. * thanks.

 

[rayscott]

A better pic of some great seal buttons I believe have been refurbished with a new facing.

 

[HutSiteDigger]

30,000 views on this posted thread! You know everyone is digging and finding these and then popping this page open for more info! unreal!

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

30,000 views on this posted thread! You know everyone is digging and finding these and then popping this page open for more info! unreal!

I had no idea that there were so many Great Seal button backmarks when I first started this thread. At this time, they have little value but its interesting trying to collect them all.

Some day I need to make one updated complete alphabetical list but I havent had time. This thread shows up on Google searches and it may contain more Great Seal backmarks than any other source. Actually Im sure it does. But I really need to work on that list.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Bigcypresshunter, Did you get the package with the buttons in it?

No I didnt. Not yet.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Fedex Tracking says it was left at front door on Thurs. Let me know if you can't find it and I'll call them.

OK I will talk to my landlord. Maybe he picked it up.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

OK I finally found the missing mail. My landlord had picked it up not realizing what it was. The Fedex driver put it in a common looking white plastic bag by the door because of the rain that day. Sorry about the delay.

The example below that you sent may or may not be refaced as the facing underneath is still good. It looks worn but may just be a poor strike or worn die. My best guess at this time, and its just a theory, is that the Army requested these buttons to be made doublefaced from the factory. I could prove this by looking at my collection of between wars buttons but they are all packed away in a storage warehouse at this time. My collection is almost exclusively non dug so I really havent seen any in this corroded condition with the facing eaten away. Its possible I may be able to see a double crimp ring on the backsides. But I wont know until I access my collection.

BTW when taking pictures of artifacts, its best to use a darker background (blue or green works best) with autofocus cameras because they cannot adjust properly to a white background. Also using your Macro lens setting is a must for closeups and watch your shadows..

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

OK I found the buttons on eBay from Latvia supposedly found on the battlefield somewhere. Look at the large Great Seal button. It has a 19th century raised lettering backmark and appears to be refaced. Very strange. I didnt purchase them but I saved the photos. http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/294801-strange-us-army-button-latvia.html

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Another theory on your buttons is that the original faces are rejects and to pass inspection needed a better face. Are every button you found this way?

 

[rayscott]

I'm glad you found them and thanks for the advice on how to get better pics.

Not all of the buttons I've found have the double crimp ring...maybe 20% do. I found one that actually has 3 crimp rings and it measures a couple of MMs wider and is much more convex than most pocket buttons.

Your theory is definitely plausible but I'm not sure it accounts for the refaced buttons having varying back marks yet the refacings all seem to be the same pattern. The branch leaves, arrows and star patterns are the same on the refacings that I have.

It's an interesting investigation. Let us know what you find when you access your Pre-war collection.

Maybe someone out there knows more about it.

Thanks for maintaining a great thread.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I decided to peel back the facing from the second button you sent because it was very thin and rotted. It was very green underneath. I carefully washed away some of the vertigris with water and soft brush. The underlying face is not in alignment with the front face and it appears to be very worn.

So it appears you may be correct that these buttons were refaced. I wonder how much money the US Army saved by doing this and was it a wartime thing to save copper or was it between wars? It appears they may have even refaced without cleaning.

 

[rayscott]

Thanks again for investigating and sharing. First, a question - Do you know of any process or product that will remove and stop vertigris from returning?

The fort where I found these buttons closed in 1940. I think they cleaned out the quartermaster warehouse and took the out of date equipment and uniforms to the incinerator. They then took the ashes and unburned remnants down to the creek and dumped them at the edge of the water. (Where I found them.) I'm pretty sure this stuff dates from 1900 through 1940. I've found a few unrimmed great seals which indicates pre-1907.

I can imagine that during an inspection, the sergeant telling a private that his buttons are worn and that he needs to replace them. He would cut them off and take them to the quartermaster and turn them in for new (or refaced) buttons. I'm sticking to the theory that those old buttons would have been gathered and shipped to a contractor who refaced them at a fraction of the cost of new ones.

I hope other collectors will read this and check their buttons for signs of possible refacing. Double crimp lines on the back and a backside that seems to be much older and worn than the face are the two indicators I look for.

If this turns out to be common, it may lead to some rethinking as to what certain backmarked buttons really looked like.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I dont know the best way to clean severe vertigris but we have a cleaning and preservation forum. Maybe Peroxide?

I searched through hundreds of my Great Seal buttons but I am unable to find any that have been refaced but Im still looking.

However I found what I believe to be a very rare pre WWI backmark from Manila, Phillipines in my button tin. I havent seen this listed anywhere. If anyone has a dateline for this company let me know. I believe the company dates to the Spanish period.

ADOLPHO RICHTER & Co. * MANILLA *

 

[rayscott]

Cool button. That master list of great seal backmarks is going to be massive.

I wonder if the refacing was a local Baltimore thing.

 

[rayscott]

Found a W & S LYON button this weekend. It's an overcoat size. It looks to have a two piece face. The rim and eagle seem to be separate from the underlying lined surface. A beautiful and well-made button.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Found a W & S LYON button this weekend. It's an overcoat size. It looks to have a two piece face. The rim and eagle seem to be separate from the underlying lined surface. A beautiful and well-made button.

View attachment 799309View attachment 799310

That is a rare button indeed and not on any of the lists. It may have come on a tux like this. ANTIQUE MILITARY WOOL TUX BRASS BUTTONS WITH TAILS,R (07/31/2010)...

There is mention of a W & S Lyon buttons here ANTIQUE MILITARY WOOL TUX BRASS BUTTONS WITH TAILS,R (07/31/2010)...

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Great Seal button on eBay 22.5 MM ***JOHN G. HAAS*** United States Great Seal Uniform Button Haas BM | eBay