Gold dredging in california

[mrs.oroblanco]

Gramps,

I'm thinking we are going to have to agree to disagree.

I guess I misinterpreted your use of the phrase "My youngest granddaughter say her history teach thinks these "occupy" morons are right, this dingbat should be taken out behind the wood shed and have his face rearainged."

While I'm not sure they should be sleeping at the parks, I am absolutely sure that they are within their rights to occupy a public place - as per our constitution. I'm not a fan of "picking and choosing" what rights someone should have based on whether I agree or not.


It is not that easy to get a job nowadays, unless you know someone, or have gone to school to do a handful of specific jobs (doctors, lawyers, etc.).

I would never want to be a young person starting out again - what I had to do to get a job was sooooo much different than the graduates have now. (and, I'm not including having a ba in liberal arts or just getting enough credits to get a BA in nothing).

Back when I started working, we still had lots of farms, and lots of manufacturing, and lots of little local businesses that hired us.

I guess a lot of Republicans are hard-left Socialists, since, much of what has been proposed are previously republican ideas.

Personally, I think that a good majority of congress today, are guilty of treason - since, they have let politics get in the way of actually doing anything productive.

MY generation (and the generation before) fought for minimum wages, unions, fair hours, and THIS congress, along with many governors, are busily trying to take what we worked for away, right up to, and including, NEWT (I know it is spelled incorrectly) wanting to take away child labor laws.

I do not know what any of them are thinking, frankly. I know what the republicans are thinking - the heck with the people, or anything we need, just get Obama out of office, and if the rest of the decent paying jobs go away, who cares. They sure don't. They are b*tching about the "super committee", and we wouldn't even have had a super committee if the republicans in congress had enough sense to just pay the bills we have already made. Its obviously rocket science to them - we owe XXXX in payments, write the check for XXXX. They are the reason for the super committee, so, now everyone's taxes will go up.

Oh well - don't want to get into a rant (rephrase that - MORE of a rant), but, the very idea that citizens should be run off public property and abused by police, tells me more about how much MORE we need to do away with the Fascists, and lean more toward the Socialists.

State Police State Police State Police State

Beth

 

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[enamel7]

Mrs. O,
You were doing so well until you started spouting garbage that should only be in the political forum. The occupy people are just what they appear to be. Ask the majority of them what they stand for and they respond "I don't know". They sit on wall street and blame the banks and the Jews for all their problems. Heck fire, even Bloomberg has turned on the democrats because of them, saying "it's not the banks fault, but the government's for forcing them to give the loans". They say we need to do away with the Constitution and write a new one with a socialist agenda. They blame the govco for them not having jobs, want the govt to give them MORE assistance, when truth is they should have took courses in matters that they would have had a better chance of getting a job. I say to you, with an attitude of "if the republicans in congress had enough sense to just pay the bills we have already made" I'm afraid you're in the state of mind as the occupiers. Sounds a lot like Queen Nancy saying "we will just print some more money". We have to stop spending what we don't need to spend. Problem is everyone is afraid of losing there handout.
HH
enamel7

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

enamel7,

You are correct - it belongs in the political forum.

I just cannot help myself when people start spouting constitutional rights for some (the ones you agree with) and not others - its a personal weakness, I admit.

However, I didn't bring it up, though I did continue it.

I know folks in the "occupy" movement - most know why they are there. (I will admit, there is always the "followers") And, frankly, if we want to take it into the political forum, I could list dozens of reasons why they are right.

In fact, the only people I know, who think they are not right, are the folks that are either currently the recipients of the "old boy network" or, those who have not had the same issues as our younger counterparts have.

Oh, there are a couple of other folks that I know - they are the folks that only listen to people that agree with them - Faux News Viewers, for the most part.

So, I will not "politicize" the politics on this thread anymore. (I know its only politics when we don't agree).

Beth

 

[kuger]

and lean more toward the Socialists..............O.K. you got my hackles up,please tell me that is not what you meant

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Sorry to say, I've been thinking about this, quite a lot, and, I think the very subject of this thread is political.

Gold Dredging in California.

If THAT is not political bs, I don't know what is.

Here's the deal I just want to get across. That same attitude about having protesters in the public parks - not belonging there - that is the exact same attitude that the general public that does not md, or drege, or prospect - say about us.

We don't belong on the public lands. That's their position, and, I, for one - have absolutely NO intention of creating the same situation with other people's interests and wants.

We cannot, in good conscience, say that we should have a right to prospect and dredge and metal detect, on public lands, if we will not accord the same privilege to other citizens.

Beth

 

[kuger]

so what the hell does that have to do with us having a Socialist Country??If you want that move to any of many countries that have it!!!

 

[Gramps43]

Beth,

Youy couldn't be more wrong about me and anyone who thinks as I do. First the Constitution is a sacred document and has as much relevance today as it did the day the ink was laid to paper. You said everyone should be able to use public property and you are correct, everyone not just a few unwashed, lice breeding, nerf hurding, morans, oops I said that again. They took over public property and made it theirs, they took away the right of other people to use those parks for quite evening strolls or sit and read a book on a warm afternoon.

Socialism is the laziest most gutless form of society one could choose, all you have to do is let the government, read Democrats, progressives i.e. socialist apparachacs, run the show while you live out your drab lives in abject poverty. A capitalist, freedom loving, society on the other hand requires that you get out and work for your beans & bacon. Our form of government is a Representative Republic, democracy is a socialist construct where the weak are overshadowed by the strong. In our society weak or strong you have a say in how things will be done, it's called "a vote" and they are not always cast for the right person, but at least we know we can right the wrong and send the ship of state tooting along on the proper course. The only job the government has it to protect it's citizens. to protect them internally form the criminal element, and there will always be one, and externally from forces that would that would destroy our freedom.

Freedom is for ALL, public property is for ALL, that's what I spent twenty years of my life defending. from a freezing radar station 200 mi. north of the Artic Circle, spending sleepless nights, weekends and holidays making sure that my equipment stayed on line. Oh and btw young lady don't ever equate me or any other member of the military the word "fascist", you have no idea what that word really means, but if you want to know find a holocaust and ask them, that is is they want to relive the pain.

Gramps

 

[calisdad]

Beth,

I find your posts articulate and refreshingly honest. Our country and society is out of balance and I applaud the Occupy group for having the courage to take a stand and question the status quo. When the Supreme Court said corporations have the same rights as people they took a brick out of the foundation of our country.

regards,
C-dad

 

[Armchair prospector]

The first three words of the constitution separate capitalism and freedom from socialism and oppression. "We the People"

 

[kuger]

The first three words of the constitution separate capitalism and freedom from socialism and oppression. "We the People"

Yes,but unfortunate many dont know this and It scares me that its not just these green behind the ears kids!!!!!Makes me sick to my stomach!!!

 

[enamel7]

Beth,

Youy couldn't be more wrong about me and anyone who thinks as I do. First the Constitution is a sacred document and has as much relevance today as it did the day the ink was laid to paper. You said everyone should be able to use public property and you are correct, everyone not just a few unwashed, lice breeding, nerf hurding, morans, oops I said that again. They took over public property and made it theirs, they took away the right of other people to use those parks for quite evening strolls or sit and read a book on a warm afternoon.

Socialism is the laziest most gutless form of society one could choose, all you have to do is let the government, read Democrats, progressives i.e. socialist apparachacs, run the show while you live out your drab lives in abject poverty. A capitalist, freedom loving, society on the other hand requires that you get out and work for your beans & bacon. Our form of government is a Representative Republic, democracy is a socialist construct where the weak are overshadowed by the strong. In our society weak or strong you have a say in how things will be done, it's called "a vote" and they are not always cast for the right person, but at least we know we can right the wrong and send the ship of state tooting along on the proper course. The only job the government has it to protect it's citizens. to protect them internally form the criminal element, and there will always be one, and externally from forces that would that would destroy our freedom.

Freedom is for ALL, public property is for ALL, that's what I spent twenty years of my life defending. from a freezing radar station 200 mi. north of the Artic Circle, spending sleepless nights, weekends and holidays making sure that my equipment stayed on line. Oh and btw young lady don't ever equate me or any other member of the military the word "fascist", you have no idea what that word really means, but if you want to know find a holocaust and ask them, that is is they want to relive the pain.

Gramps

Exactly Gramps!
Just Friday one of these yahoos called the biggest AM radio station in Charlotte and started spewing the trash about Wallstreet destroying main street and blaming the "evil jewish bankers" for all of our problems. the show host asked him what station he was suppose to call next, which he denied. claimed to be in Boston and was picking up the station on the dial.
Now Beth, I'm sure you know some people involved that has their heart in the right place, but they are the minority of the group, not the majority. I don't get my info from fox, don't have cable. Have heard too many interviews with these folks and they all are calling for what I said. Not second hand, but right out of their mouths.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

See, you have, again, made the point I was making.

You are speaking of, technically, getting rid of the folks who don't agree with you - THAT, is not consitutional.

not just a few unwashed, lice breeding, nerf hurding, morans, oops I said that again. They took over public property and made it theirs, they took away the right of other people to use those parks for quite evening strolls or sit and read a book on a warm afternoon.

People can still use the parks for evening strolls, or sit and read a book on a warm afternoon. For us - we cannot go gold dredging. (even though, btw, the 1872 mining law STILL gives us the right to use any and all public lands for the purpose of obtaining minerals).


We cannot be surprised when people in the Nature's Conservancy and such organizations, lobby government to stop our rights for accessing public land - they honestly think we (prospectors, md-ers, atv-ers, dredgers) are the bain of society - they hate us, in case you didn't know it - and they are determined to stop us from continuing our hobby. They think we are greedy, dirty, and certainly, not well educated. And, they have a real problem with mining of any kind, per se, since they think it stops them from being able to hike anywhere they want. Do you understand the connection I am trying to make?

I'm sorry, but I have also been in the Army - and, I was stationed at Fort Richardson - so, telling me about serving in the cold doesn't do much for me - though, I thank you for your service.

The Constitution is, imo, the MOST sacred document our country has - no doubt about it - but, it IS, WE THE PEOPLE, not, WE THE PEOPLE THAT WE AGREE WITH.

It is a fact that Wall Street, the bankers, the Stock Brokers and those with lots of cash, have indeed, without a doubt in my mind, taken advantage of those less weathly. To be absolutely clear - there are certainly folks who had no business getting mortgage loans - no doubt about it. But, honestly, if you are rich, you don't even need to have a credit check. In fact, if you are someone like Donald Trump, you can declare bankruptcy 4 times, and STILL get a loan for a billion dollars. (the trick, of course, is to have enough money to put several layers of legalities between you and your personal millions-something, the average person cannot, and will never afford).

There are hundreds upon hundreds of loan institutions that didn't care if someone qualified or not - they never planned on doing anything but bundling and selling the loans. And, here is where the quality of education kicks in - richer kids can afford better schools, better educated means you have a better chance of understanding the loan papers you are signing. Banks and lending institutions have, in thousands of cases, conspired with others (meaning those who appraise property), to put an unrealistic appraisal on a piece of property. So, someone thinks they are buying a $150,000 for $90,000 and getting a heck of a bargain - heck, we all know that appraisers aren't crooked, or don't get kick-backs from mortgage companies - right?) The less educated, the more the divide between rich and poor. Here is where "We the People" kicks in again - shouldn't rich and poor have the same rights? If I have a credit rating of 800 - and someone like Trump has a credit rating of 550 - (about what you should have if you have declared bankruptcy one time), how come he gets a loan at 3% and we have to pay 7%??

Wall Street - when hubby and I were still in the middle income group - wall street and stocks were going up, up, up, for some. However, hundreds of stock brokers managed to put 401K's and other retirement funds, in stocks that benefited the biggest investors. Everyone knows that, if thousands of people buy a stock, the price will run up. Then, the stock brokers sell huge blocks of it for their wealthy customers, and the bottom falls out. Guess who is holding the reduced stock? You got it - smaller 401 Ks. That's crooked, and illegal, but is done every time. It is called "market manipulation".

Education - costs have gone through the roof - and again - there is the divide. If you are the average, and you don't get a scholarship, you, most often, have to choose a college of lower quality, than someone who is rich. (see, if daddy can pay for a "laboratory" in some prestigious college, he will get to write it off his taxes, and, his children will get to go to the college - usually at much reduced costs - if any, than JohnQPublic). The children get a better education, and the divide widens more.

I think its a little bit ridiculous to listen to 40 people out of 10's of thousands who are demonstrating, and decide what the moral character or motives of all of them are. I, too, have heard some speak - and I have also heard many say they are speaking for themselves. This movement is more personal than any I have seen in my 60+ years. But, they do seem to have something in common - they aren't asking for money - they are asking for a level playing field - just like our country is asking for a level playing field in international trade.

As far as listening to news stations - I do listen to Fox - and NBC, and CNN, and anyone I can listen to. I have found, over the years, that, the truth is usually somewhere in the middle of the left and right reporting. I mentioned Fox, specifically, because I had been listening to their BS on how pepper spray is just a "vegetable", after watching their own clip of people sitting down, doing nothing, and being pepper sprayed, at close range, and them talking about "civil disobedience". Civil disobedience is (according to the Supreme Court) is: a public, non-violent and conscientious breach of law undertaken with the aim of bringing about a change in laws or government policies.

So far, I have not figured out what laws have been broken. The "owners" of the public land at Wall Street, gave permission for them to be there, so, what we have there is the police deciding (once again), that property rights are not owned by the people who own the property. A fight that has been thrown down several times in the Supreme Court.

Beth

 

[kuger]

....so Beth,why are you avoiding my question?Are you really for socialism

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

kuger,

I was not avoiding your question - but its not an accurate question.

Some so-called "socialist" programs, I am definitely for. Like grants for education, social security and medicare.

Frankly, I cannot see how we can have a "Christian" based society when we are opposed to the country acting like Christians. (not to mention the fact that all of our "socialist" programs are paid for by the people and for the people.

So, are you for Fascism and/or Plutacracy?

Beth

 

[kuger]

kuger,

I was not avoiding your question - but its not an accurate question.

Some so-called "socialist" programs, I am definitely for. Like grants for education, social security and medicare.

Frankly, I cannot see how we can have a "Christian" based society when we are opposed to the country acting like Christians. (not to mention the fact that all of our "socialist" programs are paid for by the people and for the people.

So, are you for Fascism and/or Plutacracy?

Beth

I feel it is a simple question,and the true definition is quite different then the same things we have received with our present situation.
As for your question NEITHER with a big hell no,on the Fascism.
Where do you think all "this money",will come from?Why cant kids work hard to go through school like I did?Why should I have to give my hard earned money to those that want to be coddled and lazy?I too am full agreement with you on the Social Security which is my money which they have taken from me since I was sixteen....that is not entitlement!!

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Kuger,

Well, we do have Plutacracy. And, the republican definition of SS is that it is an entitlement.

I not only understand, but, agree - I don't want my hard earned money to go to lazy folks, either, whether they are young, old, or middle aged.
That's not really what we are talking about, though.

Your question is exactly the right question.

Why cant kids work hard to go through school like I did

They can - and they do. The difference is that somebody paid for your education. (starting with grade 1-12) And, unless you or your parents were rich, somebody loaned you money to pay for tuition. Or, you got a grant (I'm talking secondary education, of course). When you finished your college, you started paying the money back. It usually took 5-7 years to pay back a full education when I went to college. Also, we had a great interest rate. That is not how it works now. Most educational loans are made at a higher rate than you would pay if you got a mortgage with excellent credit. It cost about the same - per year - as we paid for 4 years. And, that's not a "top of the line" college. Yep, average 1 year cost of college is a little over $9,000. And, that's not counting books, dorms, and having to eat while you are there. So, that's about $9,000 plus expenses for about 8 months times 4 years. So, a student has to earn, before those extra expenses, over a $1,000 per month, just to pay for the education. (if they didn't get a loan). That's just an undergraduate. So, if you go to school full time, that leaves 16 hours a day to work, study, sleep, wash clothes, and what have you. So, assuming you sleep 4 hours a night, you COULD, conceivably study 4 hours a day, and work 8 hours a day. At minimum wage (which is most of what you can get around campuses), you could make $206.00 a week, before taxes, fica, etc., which already puts you behind the eight ball.

So - they get loans. When they get out of undergraduate school, then graduate school, depending on your vocation (we are completely leaving out nonsense degrees here) - you will be almost 1/4 of a MILLION dollars in debt. That's the national average right now - some are less, some are a little more. (like if you are a doctor or lawyer, it is much higher). So, now you are 26 years old (8 years of school), and have no place to live, and no job yet, and you have to start paying back a loan at an average of 7% interest (remember when ours was .5%)

So, if you pay it back in 10 years, you will pay about $1700.00 per month - just for your student loan. That's $20,400 a year until you are 36 years old. Median income for the United States is about $50,000. So, $50,000 minus your student loan leaves you with about $29,600 to work with, or $2466.00 per month. Prudence says your housing cost should not be over 30% of your income, so, 1/3rd of income means you should be able to afford about $1667.00 dollars a month (which is about average, by the way). So, your rent is $1667.00, which leaves you with about
$799.00 to live on. Electric, about $80.00, travel expenses per month, about $150.00, food, about $400.00 per month, insurance, about $70.00 per month, health insurance, about $200.00 per month, and, we are already out of money. No emergency funds, no savings if you lose your job, and we still haven't paid our garbage fees, heat, or any of those other everyday expenses. And, you are already 36 years old. And, that is assuming you can find a $50,000 a year job, and you have not died of hunger while you were in school. That means you have to START at a job making $24.00 an hour. Let's hope you had no plans to have a spouse and children or ever buy a house or a car.

All these figures are based on average median prices, put out by the United States. However, sadly, it (the job pay) has gone down, down, down.

WE - meaning folks my age - didn't have all that to contend with. Even my kids, who are now all in their 40's, didn't have payments at that interest rate, nor those amount of costs.

If your (or my) grandchildren, some getting ready to graduate from high school in 2012, want to be a "professional" like a doctor or lawyer or engineer - you can multiply that by 3-4 times, a least.

Of course, we can always have our young folks go to community colleges, get less education than they should really have - and then the divide of rich versus poor gets bigger and bigger and bigger.

Kuger - there is a big big big - difference between your definition of "entitlements" and mine. My definition of "entitlement" is that we, as a country, should EXPECT to be able to educate our children to the highest degree they are capable of, and I think they are entitled to that - that includes primary education as well as post high school education.

We had manufacturing jobs - many of which promoted from within - which are long gone now, that we could make a decent living from. Now, we are a service-based economy, and - for the most part, we are "servicing" the rich.

Beth

PS: The man who invented "Facism" defined it as a marriage between government and corporate power. In case you haven't looked around, we have that all over the place. We make believe its not, we just call them "lobbyists", but, what they are lobbying for is the government looking out for the corporations. (by the way, that man was Mussolini)

 

[jog]

And I just started this thread to share my gold dredging adventure. haha. Good to get these things out on the table though.

My thoughts exactly.....

 

[kuger]

And I just started this thread to share my gold dredging adventure. haha. Good to get these things out on the table though.

My thoughts exactly.....

Well seeing how it is illegal for everybody else there isnt a whole lot else to say about it is there??

 

[calisdad]

Well I don't know what: "it is illegal for everybody else" means but I think nobody forced these loans on anyone but I do think if you took advantage of public secondary education then public service should be mandatory. Those getting 3 or 4 majors and ending up with a masters in underwater basket weaving have no one to blame but themselves. OTOH those in the medical business (yes, it is a business) who graduate and expect to earn $350,000 their first year need to give something back to society.

 

[kuger]

Well I don't know what: "it is illegal for everybody else" means but I think nobody forced these loans on anyone but I do think if you took advantage of public secondary education then public service should be mandatory. Those getting 3 or 4 majors and ending up with a masters in underwater basket weaving have no one to blame but themselves. OTOH those in the medical business (yes, it is a business) who graduate and expect to earn $350,000 their first year need to give something back to society.

The original topic!!
I full heartedly agree with the rest of your statement Calisdad.............GI BILL,and not grants for people who are here ILLEGALLY too!!!
I have several acquaintances that are prime examples of career college students,that think they should be handed jobs because!Also someone ought to be rioting these chancellors that are pulling half a million a year!!!