Armchair prospector
Sr. Member
- Jul 31, 2011
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John, if federal law trumps state law, then the feds need to get involved in the dredging issue as the river systems in Ca. are under BLM and that is federal, is it not?
Gold dredging in california
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Hoser John
Gold Member
It took us almost 10 years to beat the ACOE into submission and they gave me a 5 year plan as the results and became a non-issue back in the mid ninties. All it takes is a new enviro boss and they'll come a knockn' again as giant asleep NOT DEAD by a long shot-and yes the feds are the answer and just tryin' and tryn' everything to get'm involved. OOPS thats right as they ARE involved a the EPA has already banned dredging completely in Idaho 
John
Johnrussau
Gold Member
i got a notice from Jerry Hobbs of PLP. he just received a cpoy of a dredgers citation and when the dredger got issued the citation, they brought along the film crew of the National Geographic channel with them to film it. kinda like their other show when they filmed the gold miners working thier claim. so this maybe the first verified citation for violating a illegal law!
calisdad
Bronze Member
russau said:
Was he cited by DFG? Nat Geo has a show called 'Wild Justice' that at times puts a very bad light on DFG practices. An unintended consequence for sure.
russau
Gold Member
i havent seen it but only read a note from Jerry about this.but id "assume" so!
Wicked Wanda
Full Member
Well, if you think that the dredging law is bad here in Ca. then you need to realize that on the ICMJ website, it is posted that YOU KNOW HAVE TO HAVE A PERMIT TO HIBANK AND POWER SLUICE IN THIS GOD FORSAKEN STATE. 10,000.00 DOLLAR FINE PER DAY, PERMIT STARTS AT 1,120.00 AND YOU HAVE TO HAVE A PERMIT FOR EACH SECTION OF CA. THAT YOU ARE PROSPECTING IN.....NO JOKE!!!!
I will fricking run a dredge, the fine is cheaper....rat bastards. The link follows, check it out for yourself.
http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/water_issues/programs/cwa401/suction_dredge.shtml
FAQ:http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/water_issues/programs/cwa401/docs/suctiondredge/highbank_faq.pdf
Which states.....
"Question: Can I use a highbanker or power sluice to recover gold?
Answer: Yes, under the following conditions:
1.
The Fish and Game Code, the Clean Water Act, and the California Water Code prohibit you from discharging water and waste sediment from your highbanker or power sluice to an area such that it may enter a stream, river, lake, or other surface water body without a permit from the Regional Water Quality Control Board (Regional Water Board) responsible for the area where you’ll be mining. Currently there is no general permit available for discharges of water and waste sediment from highbankers or power sluices to streams, rivers, lakes, or other surface water bodies.
2.
You can discharge water and waste sediment from your highbanker or power sluice to land but you must first apply for a permit from the Regional Water Board responsible for the area where you’ll be mining. To apply for a permit, you must file a Report of Waste Discharge with the Regional Water Board. You cannot begin mining until the Regional Water Board approves your Report of Waste Discharge and notifies you that either your permit has been issued or that a permit is not required because the discharge will not create or threaten to create a condition of pollution or nuisance. The minimum fee for the permit is $1120.00 but may be higher depending on the threat the discharge poses to water quality and the complexity of the discharge as determined by the Regional Water Board. See below for legal details.
3.
If you are diverting water from a riparian parcel for use on that parcel, you must have a riparian water right or be legally entitled to use riparian water rights for the parcel and you must file a Statement of Water Diversion and Use (Statement) with the State Water Resources Control Board’s (State Water Board) Division of Water Rights for each point of diversion. The fee for filing a Statement of Diversion and Use is $50.00. For general information about riparian water rights, and whether you have one, go to:http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/waterrights/board_info/faqs.shtml. For information about Statements of Diversion and Use, and how to file one, go to: http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/waterrights/board_info/faqs.shtml.
4.
If you plan to divert water for use on non-riparian land, or to divert water that would not be there under natural conditions for use on riparian land, you must apply for and receive a permit to appropriate water from the State Water Resources Control Board. For information about applying for water rights, go to: http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/waterrights/board_info/faqs.shtml
Question: What are the penalties if I don’t comply with the conditions?
Answer: Violating conditions 1 and 2 may result in fines of up to $10,000 for each day, or if the matter is referred to the courts, fines up to $25,000 for each day in which the violation occurs.
Violating condition 3 may result in a fine of up to $1,000 plus $500 for each day the violation continues after 30 days of the State Water Board notification of the violation. Go to: http://www.waterboards.ca.gov/waterrights/board_info/faqs.shtml#toc178761086for details.
Violating condition 4 may result in a fine of up to $500 per day of unauthorized diversion and use. Go to:http://www.waterboards.ca.gov/waterrights/board_info/faqs.shtml#toc178761086 for details.
Legal Information:
In many instances mining activities, including high banking require one or more permits from the State Water Resources Control Board (State Water Board) or appropriate Regional Water Quality Control Board (Regional Water Board). Various federal and state law requirements necessitate permitting and notification of mining activities as they affect the waters of the state of California. The federal Clean Water Act was enacted by Congress “to restore and maintain the chemical, physical, and biological integrity of the Nation’s waters.”1 Section 301 of the Clean Water Act prohibits “the discharge of any pollutant by any person” except in compliance with the Clean Water Act; i.e., except without obtaining a permit.2 The “discharge of any pollutant” means any addition of any pollutant to navigable waters from any point source. As defined by the Clean Water Act, “pollutants” include numerous metals and toxic substances (e.mercury) as well as dredged spoil, rock, sand, and earthen materials.3 In California, the State Water Board and the Regional Water Quality Control Boards (Regional Water Boards) are the state agencies that administer the Clean Water Act.4
California’s counterpart to the Clean Water Act is the Porter-Cologne Water Quality Control Act (Porter-Cologne).5 Pursuant to Porter-Cologne, any person discharging waste, or proposing to discharge waste that could affect the quality of the waters of the state must file a report of the discharge with the appropriate Regional Water Board.6 While certain waters and activities may be beyond the jurisdictional reach of the Clean Water Act, Porter-Cologne is much broader in reach and comprehensive in coverage. Porter-Cologne defines “waste” to include any and all waste substances associated with
1 33 U.S.C. § 1251(a).
2 33 U.S.C. § 1311(a).
3 33 U.S.C. § 1362(6).
4 Wat. Code, § 13160.
5 Wat. Code, § 13000 et seq.
6 Wat. Code, § 13260, subd. (a).
human habitation or resulting from any producing, manufacturing, or processing operation, including mining waste.7 Similarly, “waters of the state” is much broader than what is considered the “nation’s waters” under the Clean Water Act. Waters of the state includes “any surface water or groundwater, including saline waters, within the boundaries of the state.8
When discharging to waters within California’s borders, compliance with both the federal Clean Water Act and the state Porter-Cologne Water Quality Control Act is required in most instances. This includes most federal lands located within California.9 Any person violating these water quality laws may subject that person to fines imposed by the State or Regional Water Boards of up to $10,000 for each day in which the violation occurs plus $10 per gallon of discharge. If the matter is referred to the courts, that court may impose civil fines as high as $25,000 for each day in which the violation occurs.10
In addition to the discharge or proposed discharge of pollutants or waste to the waters of the state, any person or organization who diverts water from a surface stream or other body of surface water or pumps groundwater from a known subterranean stream must file a statement of its diversion and use.11 A Statement of Water Diversion and Use (Statement) must be filed with the State Water Board’s Division of Water Rights for each point of diversion and should identify the amount of water used during the first calendar year. The Statement must be filed with the Division of Water Rights on or before June 30 of the following year. Failure to file a Statement for each diversion that occurred after January 1, 2009, may be subject to civil liabilities that carry a maximum fine of $1,000 plus $500 for each day the violation continues after 30 days of the State Water Board notification of the violation.12 For more information on how to file a Statement and when filing is required, please see:http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/waterrights/water_issues/programs/diversion_use/index.shtml
7 Wat, Code, § 13050, subds. (d) and (q).
8 Id., subd. (e) (emphasis added).
9 E.g., see 36 C.F.R. § 228.8 (Mining operators on Forest Service lands and shall comply with applicable federal and state water quality standards, including regulations issued pursuant to the Clean Water Act.)
10 Wat. Code, §§ 13350, 13385.
11 Wat. Code, § 5101.
12 Wat. Code, § 5107."
NOW, WE NEED A REVOLUTION, THIS CRAP IS GETTING DEEP!!!!!
I will fricking run a dredge, the fine is cheaper....rat bastards. The link follows, check it out for yourself.
http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/water_issues/programs/cwa401/suction_dredge.shtml
FAQ:http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/water_issues/programs/cwa401/docs/suctiondredge/highbank_faq.pdf
Which states.....
"Question: Can I use a highbanker or power sluice to recover gold?
Answer: Yes, under the following conditions:
1.
The Fish and Game Code, the Clean Water Act, and the California Water Code prohibit you from discharging water and waste sediment from your highbanker or power sluice to an area such that it may enter a stream, river, lake, or other surface water body without a permit from the Regional Water Quality Control Board (Regional Water Board) responsible for the area where you’ll be mining. Currently there is no general permit available for discharges of water and waste sediment from highbankers or power sluices to streams, rivers, lakes, or other surface water bodies.
2.
You can discharge water and waste sediment from your highbanker or power sluice to land but you must first apply for a permit from the Regional Water Board responsible for the area where you’ll be mining. To apply for a permit, you must file a Report of Waste Discharge with the Regional Water Board. You cannot begin mining until the Regional Water Board approves your Report of Waste Discharge and notifies you that either your permit has been issued or that a permit is not required because the discharge will not create or threaten to create a condition of pollution or nuisance. The minimum fee for the permit is $1120.00 but may be higher depending on the threat the discharge poses to water quality and the complexity of the discharge as determined by the Regional Water Board. See below for legal details.
3.
If you are diverting water from a riparian parcel for use on that parcel, you must have a riparian water right or be legally entitled to use riparian water rights for the parcel and you must file a Statement of Water Diversion and Use (Statement) with the State Water Resources Control Board’s (State Water Board) Division of Water Rights for each point of diversion. The fee for filing a Statement of Diversion and Use is $50.00. For general information about riparian water rights, and whether you have one, go to:http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/waterrights/board_info/faqs.shtml. For information about Statements of Diversion and Use, and how to file one, go to: http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/waterrights/board_info/faqs.shtml.
4.
If you plan to divert water for use on non-riparian land, or to divert water that would not be there under natural conditions for use on riparian land, you must apply for and receive a permit to appropriate water from the State Water Resources Control Board. For information about applying for water rights, go to: http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/waterrights/board_info/faqs.shtml
Question: What are the penalties if I don’t comply with the conditions?
Answer: Violating conditions 1 and 2 may result in fines of up to $10,000 for each day, or if the matter is referred to the courts, fines up to $25,000 for each day in which the violation occurs.
Violating condition 3 may result in a fine of up to $1,000 plus $500 for each day the violation continues after 30 days of the State Water Board notification of the violation. Go to: http://www.waterboards.ca.gov/waterrights/board_info/faqs.shtml#toc178761086for details.
Violating condition 4 may result in a fine of up to $500 per day of unauthorized diversion and use. Go to:http://www.waterboards.ca.gov/waterrights/board_info/faqs.shtml#toc178761086 for details.
Legal Information:
In many instances mining activities, including high banking require one or more permits from the State Water Resources Control Board (State Water Board) or appropriate Regional Water Quality Control Board (Regional Water Board). Various federal and state law requirements necessitate permitting and notification of mining activities as they affect the waters of the state of California. The federal Clean Water Act was enacted by Congress “to restore and maintain the chemical, physical, and biological integrity of the Nation’s waters.”1 Section 301 of the Clean Water Act prohibits “the discharge of any pollutant by any person” except in compliance with the Clean Water Act; i.e., except without obtaining a permit.2 The “discharge of any pollutant” means any addition of any pollutant to navigable waters from any point source. As defined by the Clean Water Act, “pollutants” include numerous metals and toxic substances (e.mercury) as well as dredged spoil, rock, sand, and earthen materials.3 In California, the State Water Board and the Regional Water Quality Control Boards (Regional Water Boards) are the state agencies that administer the Clean Water Act.4
California’s counterpart to the Clean Water Act is the Porter-Cologne Water Quality Control Act (Porter-Cologne).5 Pursuant to Porter-Cologne, any person discharging waste, or proposing to discharge waste that could affect the quality of the waters of the state must file a report of the discharge with the appropriate Regional Water Board.6 While certain waters and activities may be beyond the jurisdictional reach of the Clean Water Act, Porter-Cologne is much broader in reach and comprehensive in coverage. Porter-Cologne defines “waste” to include any and all waste substances associated with
1 33 U.S.C. § 1251(a).
2 33 U.S.C. § 1311(a).
3 33 U.S.C. § 1362(6).
4 Wat. Code, § 13160.
5 Wat. Code, § 13000 et seq.
6 Wat. Code, § 13260, subd. (a).
human habitation or resulting from any producing, manufacturing, or processing operation, including mining waste.7 Similarly, “waters of the state” is much broader than what is considered the “nation’s waters” under the Clean Water Act. Waters of the state includes “any surface water or groundwater, including saline waters, within the boundaries of the state.8
When discharging to waters within California’s borders, compliance with both the federal Clean Water Act and the state Porter-Cologne Water Quality Control Act is required in most instances. This includes most federal lands located within California.9 Any person violating these water quality laws may subject that person to fines imposed by the State or Regional Water Boards of up to $10,000 for each day in which the violation occurs plus $10 per gallon of discharge. If the matter is referred to the courts, that court may impose civil fines as high as $25,000 for each day in which the violation occurs.10
In addition to the discharge or proposed discharge of pollutants or waste to the waters of the state, any person or organization who diverts water from a surface stream or other body of surface water or pumps groundwater from a known subterranean stream must file a statement of its diversion and use.11 A Statement of Water Diversion and Use (Statement) must be filed with the State Water Board’s Division of Water Rights for each point of diversion and should identify the amount of water used during the first calendar year. The Statement must be filed with the Division of Water Rights on or before June 30 of the following year. Failure to file a Statement for each diversion that occurred after January 1, 2009, may be subject to civil liabilities that carry a maximum fine of $1,000 plus $500 for each day the violation continues after 30 days of the State Water Board notification of the violation.12 For more information on how to file a Statement and when filing is required, please see:http://www.swrcb.ca.gov/waterrights/water_issues/programs/diversion_use/index.shtml
7 Wat, Code, § 13050, subds. (d) and (q).
8 Id., subd. (e) (emphasis added).
9 E.g., see 36 C.F.R. § 228.8 (Mining operators on Forest Service lands and shall comply with applicable federal and state water quality standards, including regulations issued pursuant to the Clean Water Act.)
10 Wat. Code, §§ 13350, 13385.
11 Wat. Code, § 5101.
12 Wat. Code, § 5107."
NOW, WE NEED A REVOLUTION, THIS CRAP IS GETTING DEEP!!!!!
kuger
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Wanda,you need to post this as its own thread so more people will see it.I knew it was coming,as the EPA water Pollution Standards for construction are atrocious,and why I hate to say I think dredging in Cali,legally ever again is gone.I will bet they will require a Swepp plan,and water sampling required as well,which equals big$$$$$
Wicked Wanda
Full Member
Kuger, As soon as I get these newbie prospectors out of the store I am on it, new thread, thank you.
kuger
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Wicked Wanda said:
Correct me if I am wrong but the way that reads you actually can not take material from anywhere out of the water and pan it either?That would be intruducing sediment pollutant to a waterway?Somebody better be watching thisGravel Hog
Sr. Member
The new Water Quality Management Plan for National Forest System Lands in California (by the same agency) is shaping up to be along the same lines as the Highbanking permit BS and will make Dredging a thing of the past.
Water "CONTROL" Board klamath cancer as it grows.
Freakin' Crazy how things are going for us California miners. So many things to keep an eye on at this point it ain't funny.
Water "CONTROL" Board klamath cancer as it grows.
Freakin' Crazy how things are going for us California miners.
So many things to keep an eye on at this point it ain't funny. 
mrs.oroblanco
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Just found this thread.
Great pics!!
Question - any gold in that mercury lump? We have a claim up in Northern California, and found a mercury lump in one of the settling ponds, turned out to be mixed with gold. I just wonder how often that happens to folks.
If you are highbanking or dredging on a live creek - even on private property - the water belongs to the state of California - I found this out the hard way in 1994 - it probably hasn't changed since then, since it was a fairly new law back then. So, be careful of "making dirty water" so nobody screws around with you.
This is something that most states now do - all "live" water belongs to the states, unless it starts and stops on the property. A good friend paid a hefty fine (I mean in the thousands), for taking rocks out of the creek on his property for his chimney. (and, by the way, California "sells" water rights to wealthy folks - and I don't mean for drinking).
So, just be careful, and bring out those nuggets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Beth
Great pics!!
Question - any gold in that mercury lump? We have a claim up in Northern California, and found a mercury lump in one of the settling ponds, turned out to be mixed with gold. I just wonder how often that happens to folks.
If you are highbanking or dredging on a live creek - even on private property - the water belongs to the state of California - I found this out the hard way in 1994 - it probably hasn't changed since then, since it was a fairly new law back then. So, be careful of "making dirty water" so nobody screws around with you.
This is something that most states now do - all "live" water belongs to the states, unless it starts and stops on the property. A good friend paid a hefty fine (I mean in the thousands), for taking rocks out of the creek on his property for his chimney. (and, by the way, California "sells" water rights to wealthy folks - and I don't mean for drinking).
So, just be careful, and bring out those nuggets!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Beth
jog
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So I take it Cal, doesn't have granted water rights for mining?
Hoser John
Gold Member
CDFG/Waterboard in the process of killing them completely and doing it illegally as they don't care anymore,take us to court is their stance,hard to do from a jail cell and you end up paying for both litigants anyhow-one through taxes --the other your pocket. Bureaucracy gone mad--time for yet another 1776---John
kuger
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mrs.oroblanco said:
I guarantee there is Merc in there.I pull 10-15 lbs a season of mercury and it is always full o yeller.
Actually all receiving waters belong to the Army Corp. of Engineers if I am not mistaken....makes no diff, really the new Storm Water Pollution,Erosion Laws are ridiculous!
Some of you folks needing a job should look into becoming CESSWI Certified ........I did,cant beat em join em!
mrs.oroblanco
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I don't know exactly about the water rights anymore - they took ours away, and, in Kern County anyway, the ranchers didn't lose their ranching leases, they just took away the water rights. (can't raise too many cattle if you are hauling water in).
I do know they have sold a whole bunch of water rights to different corporations - great, huh? So, in some places, if you want to use the water, you have to go to the proper corporation.
Beyond that - I think you would have to check in your individual area. We do have the water rights to our northern claims. Of course, water is more accessible there, then in Souther Cal, so, there may very well be different laws.
I think, just for your own peace of mind, it wouldn't hurt to read up on them, for your area. I think most of them (laws) are on line now, just look up your area, and search for "water statutes" or similar, and it will come up.
Beth
I do know they have sold a whole bunch of water rights to different corporations - great, huh? So, in some places, if you want to use the water, you have to go to the proper corporation.
Beyond that - I think you would have to check in your individual area. We do have the water rights to our northern claims. Of course, water is more accessible there, then in Souther Cal, so, there may very well be different laws.
I think, just for your own peace of mind, it wouldn't hurt to read up on them, for your area. I think most of them (laws) are on line now, just look up your area, and search for "water statutes" or similar, and it will come up.
Beth
kuger
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mrs.oroblanco said:
First off,I am far from Southern Calif,second I am seventh Generation cattle rancher/miner.I am also a Certified Storm Water/Erosion control Inspector,so I am pretty "privy",to the laws 
All receiving waters in the U.S. are under Jurisdiction of the ACOE.We still have "some",water rights for our ag operation,but we do not "own",the water.All of the waterways,and lakes in my area have been sold to the Bay Area's Public Utility districts or various Irrigation Districts.There will be a lot of surprised and hopefully riot ready people when the new EPA,etc regs come down the pipe
mrs.oroblanco
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Thanks, Kuger,
And, I agree - I hope people are ready for a fight.
Beth
And, I agree - I hope people are ready for a fight.
Beth
jog
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russau
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a little lubracation and tweeking and that contraption might work!
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