Found box marked Navajo Trade Tokens

[foundatreasure]

I stumbled on this site trying to research a treasure find. I hope it is OK to post for other than a find with a metal detector. I own one but haven't used it yet!

Anyway, found a sealed box(at a thrift store) that is marked "Navaho(sic) Trade Tokens\Sterling 1810's 3429B(a catalog number?)

I've never seen such things before & wondered if anyone new anything about them.

Looks like there is about 20 items in the box. It is sealed so I didn't think I should open it as it looks very old itself.

Appears there is a crude Bull, a Donkey, a Kneeling person, 2 heads that look like Native American person on a buffalo head nickel, 3 other (female?) heads that remind me of a liberty dime & about 12 stick people. The 12 stick people have similar hash marks on them like a number sign # but with only 1 vertical line. They are all a little different. On the non-stick people, didn't see any marks.

Any info is appreciated!

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Picture below is from foundatreasure's original post.

 

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Foundatreasure ~

I'm curious. If/when you open the box (or possibly through the glass) could you please take a picture of one of the "marks" or a best guess worded description of it/them?

Thanks.

SBB

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

(sentence deleted by request)


It looks as if you disagree with the ID so I did a little search to see if there is a connection between Navajos and Milagros. I havent found it yet but it seems that milagros have been around a long time. They originated in the Mediterranean area.

It says here. "Objects virtually identical to these can be found in Andalusia, Spain, and throughout the Mediterranean world, where they almost certainly originated and from which they diffused to Mexico and other parts of Latin America at the time of the Spanish conquest."
http://maninthemaze.blogspot.com/2011/03/milagros-miracles.html


I guess its not over yet. We will know a lot more when they are tested for silver.

 

[NaturalJWL]

Bigcy, here is the original post.

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,411541.msg2929239.html#msg2929239

 

[Breezie]

I can't speak for the silver pieces, and we will not know until they are tested or viewed by an expert, but I can say the frame is from the correct period of the 1890's. From the photos, it appears to be mahogany veneer with shellac, which was very typical for that time period. Also the ink on the note is in brown, which is a good sign.

Interesting thrift store find, Breezie

WELCOME to the forum!

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Bigcy, here is the original post.

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,411541.msg2929239.html#msg2929239

Ah thanks. ( sentence deleted by request)

A poster recommended not opening the box. Maybe there is another way to test them. Buy some of the exact cheap ones and weigh them? I dont know but I will be folowing this thread for the results. Thanks again.

Here is a side by side comparison with eBay.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I cant find those stick men anywhere online and they seem a different color than the rest.

We have found modern moulds for all the others.

The stick men are not as shiny. Are they different color?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The bottom looks wrarped from age. Is there anyway someone could have cut a slice, slipped some modern ones in the mix, and seal it back up?

What is that on the back that looks green?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Keep in mind that we have yet to find a match for the curious stick men.

 

[foundatreasure]

WOW! I really appreciate the research by everyone here! I spent a lot of time on these but didn't expect any one else to do the same.

I am posting a photo here that was cropped down out of the box. Interesting how photos can bring details to light when I didn't originally see them. There is a difference on color. The stick people look duller & more gray in color. I knew the hash marks were a little different but now I see from my photo that the stick people are quite different from each other even in size. I noticed the faces/details are different this time. Now I wonder if what I called hash marks are merely an attempt to add ribs to the stick people. Below the belt is another circle sort of thing (one looked like a turtle to me when I magnified) and one that is definitely below the belt. That fellow has a sour look on his face! Maybe a crude body parts? So it would seem that they either were from different molds or were "decorated" after the mold while they were still soft enough to make changes to them. I don't find any marks on the backs of any of them. Some of the non stick people have some patina or discoloration on them different from traditional silver patina of green or black as seen in the picture on the bull. Also noticed even the ring at the top is different on each. Very curious!

On the green on the back of the box, it is the paper or cloth taping that seals the box deteriorating. It appears on the edges of the material and where there is wear from touching/holding the box. Had to think about the wear/where thing! Looks to me like the top of the back was applied in 2 pieces & then the narrower tape applied all around the outside to seal it. Someone was very meticulous & exact when sealing the box. More pics of back of box below.

I don't see where it could be opened & resealed. The varnished/shellac box looks right because the junction at the box & tape seems sealed by the same. Looks possible that the back cover had some applied as well. Probably my wishful thinking but the box truly seems right for a catalog box.

For what it is worth, they don't stick to a magnet.

I bought these to resell them if there are serious offers.

 

[Breezie]

The varnished/shellac box looks right because the junction at the box & tape seems sealed by the same. Looks possible that the back cover had some applied as well. Probably my wishful thinking but the box truly seems right for a catalog box.

Yes, the wood & shellac and sealing for the frame/box is correct for the 1890's, as well as the brown ink. If these are not the real deal, someone went to a hellavalota trouble to make them look real. Breezie

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Yes, the wood & shellac and sealing for the frame/box is correct for the 1890's, as well as the brown ink. If these are not the real deal, someone went to a hellavalota trouble to make them look real. Breezie

Yes I said way back that I would have fallen for the shellaced wood box myself. (reply # 15) It reminds me of a museum tray. What kind of ink is that Breezie?

Someone said they look like Milagros and we matched the moulds exactly. But the stick men are quite different. I think the possibility exists that someone somehow mixed in some Milagros with some Navajo trade silver items. (Note that Navaho is spelled with an H). I dont think the stick men are Milagros. We havent found a match.

As far as selling we have a section for that too. Its kinda like buying an unopened roll of wheaties and the seller doesnt know whats inside. At this point, you dont know what you are getting but its extremely interesting..

Could you give us the total weight please?

Im having trouble judging size. Can you give us the total dimensions of the box? Maybe you did but I missed it.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I searched back and I found the pic with the penny for size comparison but the penny was way off my screen.

I have resized it here for those that may have been having trouble visualizing the size.
Myself, I thought it was much larger.




Looking at the shellac you can see that it was hand applied. The shellac/varnish is brushed on too thick and it looks sloppy underneath. It doesnt appear to be done by a professional. I dont know if that means anything.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

foundatreasure ~

Here is the only website of many I have looked at that shows anything even similar to your "stick people" milagros. The site refers to the ones in their collection as old and made of silver. But I didn't see where there was any specific information regarding exactly how old or if the silver was marked. Check it out and see what you think.

SBB

Link: http://www.oldguadalajara.net/search.php?categoria=5&subcategoria=35&_pagi_pg=1

[ Picture from website ]

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

foundatreasure ~

Here is the only website of many I have looked at that shows anything even similar to your "stick people" milagros. The site refers to the ones in their collection as old and made of silver. But I didn't see where there was any specific information regarding exactly how old or if the silver was marked. Check it out and see what you think.

SBB

I think thats a great link Bob. Not the same but very close.

I see they are advertised as Mexican colonial. I think Mexicos independence from Spain was 1810. So they are selling a dozen pre 1810 sterling milagros for $120 depending on the price of silver.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

The text below is intended to expound a little on the Colonial period of Mexico/Spain.

(But the box still looks like it says 1890's to me)


In 1810 Mexico declared independence, with the Mexican War of Independence following for over a decade. In 1821 the Treaty of Córdoba established Mexican independence from Spain and concluded the War. The Plan of Iguala was part of the peace treaty to establish a constitutional foundation for an independent Mexico.

These began a movement for colonial independence that spread to Spain's other colonies in the Americas. The ideas from the French and the American Revolution influenced the efforts. All of the colonies, except Cuba and Puerto Rico, attained independence by the 1820s.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

The text below is intended to expound a little on the Colonial period of Mexico/Spain.

(But the box still looks like it says 1890's to me)

Thanks for the link. Yes it looks 1890's to me too but what Im saying is even if this box and the silver milagros inside are truly 1890 or even older, they are only worth about 10 bucks each because colonial milagros are selling for that price (without the box)

These items will only have more value if they are proven or believed to be connected to the 1890 Navajos.

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

More food for thought!

"Looks like there is about 20 items in the box."

20 x $10.00 = $200.00


The evidence clearly indicates the items are milagos and not true Navajo trade tokens. Which, for me, places the hand written label into question. Which suggest one of several things ...

1. The box may have contained true Navajo (coin type) trade tokens at one point and were replaced later with the milagros. But for some reason whoever did this just didn't change the label. True Navajo trade tokens were definitely being used in the 1890s, but not in the 1810s.

2. The person who wrote the note may not have known the difference between a trade token and a milagro.

3. It seems unlikely the note was written by a Native American Navajo. They would never misspell their name which translates "The People." (Hopi translates "The Peaceful People").

4. In my opinion, the biggest question of all is "Are they sterling silver or not?" The box may need to be opened and the items examined/tested to determine this. Silver vs. not silver will greatly effect their true value.

SBB

 

[Tuberale]

To me, it looks like many of the items are not Milagros because the figures are not consistently kneeling. Standing figures suggest more Navajo to me.

No one to date has mentioned the difference in metal appearance. Pure silver tarnishes quickly, and turns nearly black with much age or exposure to light: one of the reasons it is seldom used for jewelry making.

Container looks more to me like a "shadow box."

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

foundatreasure ~

This will likely be my last contribution for the time being. I may have overstayed my welcome already. However, I will be watching with interest, especially when the jury returns with a verdict regarding the silver vs. not silver debate.

Thanks for allowing me to hang out. It has been a fun and educational experience.

Techqua Ikachi ...

SBB

Description on back of 1940s postcard:

Some symbols used by Indians in decorating silverware, pottery, jewelry, rugs, etc. Before the coming of the White Man the Indians had no alphabet, but were able to express their meaning in a crude way by picture writing and symbols. Many of these symbols are still used by Indians in their ceremonials and in decorating their handicraft, such as silver jewelry, pottery, blankets and beadwork. Here are just a few of them and their meanings.