MinerGirl
Sr. Member
Ahhh...I see ,said the blind man, as he picked up his hammer and saw. :}
Forrest Fenn s treasure
- Thread starter themarkd
- Start date
MiddenMonster
Bronze Member
Gee, what's wrong with this picture (not to mention, a bit of deja vu)? If we do our research and can find out why it has already been found, how does the 5 o'clock news and blabbing have anything to do with it? Why not just cut out the middleman and tell us why you think it has been found?
Hobo
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over at Mysterious Writings, weekly words for October 14, 2016
a poster put up,a link to a vid "making a treasure chest" by
max cast, ive only posted the last 3min of the 23min vid. he
says he got an email about making the chest, not sure if it was
sold in the comments he was asked what it sells for, $2500.00
just thought it interesting that there could be 2 or more in the
world hidden or used for? and where ever the copies are they prob
dont hold gold
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8me_3bBwSHY&feature=youtu.be&t=21m23s
a poster put up,a link to a vid "making a treasure chest" by
max cast, ive only posted the last 3min of the 23min vid. he
says he got an email about making the chest, not sure if it was
sold in the comments he was asked what it sells for, $2500.00
just thought it interesting that there could be 2 or more in the
world hidden or used for? and where ever the copies are they prob
dont hold gold
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8me_3bBwSHY&feature=youtu.be&t=21m23s
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Forrest Fenn is fascinating to read about. I can't believe no one has found it yet. Keep in mind the "clue" that it can't be in too difficult of a place to bury treasure because an "old man" hid it back in the day. Good luck!
Hobo
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He wasn't that old, he was only 80 and what you call "back in the day" was about 5 yrs ago. Back in the day is 40 yrs plus unless you'r a kid.
Eldo
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This was the Tire Feeder and Salt Lick we approached in the last segment of clues.....
Now all we have to do is figure out the last clue to the chest....
So why is it that I must go
And leave my trove for all to seek
The answers I already know,
I've done it tired and now I'm weak
So listen all and hear me good,
Your effort will be worth the cold,
If you are brave and in the wood,
I give you title to the gold.
Now all we have to do is figure out the last clue to the chest....
So why is it that I must go
And leave my trove for all to seek
The answers I already know,
I've done it tired and now I'm weak
So listen all and hear me good,
Your effort will be worth the cold,
If you are brave and in the wood,
I give you title to the gold.
Last edited:
Eldo
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Anyone into ciphers?
Forrest's hypothetical Blaze is a Cipher made by Blaise D Vigenere
Here's the process to decipher the coded messages......
First there are 6 clues of descriptive 'nature' in the 6 paragraphs......these describe the landmarks....
The remaining 3 clues are messages that are derived from running a standard poly-alphabetic substitution cipher through a Vigenere Tableau using the first letter of each word as a Ciphertext.
From here its no place for the meek......literally....you need to be very analytical and focused on a multi layered process to identify the mechanics of these systems of encoding as they take a few steps and the initial results do not form a message until after a few moves.....these multiple stages were also used to flatten the letter frequencies and to make a ton of double and triple bigrams.....
If you were WISE and FOUND THE BLAISE, LOOK QUICKLY DOWN meant that you entered these special sequences of 26 letters into the table and used the poem as a tool to derive 3 extra messages.
He even hinted at the poem holding a table like this.....by hinting at a mileage chart VERY early on. Its 8.25 north of Santa Fe and 300 miles west of Toledo......This is very suspect as it is not only literal but symbolic of a mileage CHART....the same layout that a Vigenere CHART is made with.
To locate the messages you enter each letter of the first letter of the poem into the system the same way a mileage chart works, and as you see the convergence in the chart, the corresponding letter will be located at that point. The individual letters in a standard Vigenere Tableau will all feature the same resulting patterns, as to its known layouts, so a computer program will make it crack in seconds, and letter frequency programs will easily align the exact messages.
Fenn being trained in codes and communications from being a pilot knew this, and his friends in the CIA who were investigating Ciphers of the CIA, Barry Goldwater and others obviously knew he could keep secrets if they all were "close friends on digs and adventures". His ability to use textbook systems was developed by pros who knew how to flatten out the frequencies and make these ciphers almost invincible to computing devices that rip through trillions of variables for an easy win in seconds.
In order to do that with any multi layered system, they have to have a certain phrase to enter into the alphabet of the tableau to cause a poly-alphabetic shift. This means from an analytical point of view the exact opposite results are produced in the program showing that a master has planned their every move out to deceive them at each step.
In order to develop a shifting tableau that varies to deliver almost infinite amount of variable and a few key messages, you have to have exactly 26 letters to use.......
Guess what.....?
There are exactly 3 lines in the poem that form 26 letter alphabets.
Begin it where warm waters halt
Just heavy loads and water high
I've done it tired and now I'm weak
Taking these phrases and entering them into the Blaze (Blaise D' Vigenere), I place them in the first column vertically (look quickly down), and then finish the alphabets off horizontally from the letter, rounding over from Z to A where needed.
For Example Below: Notice how the words BEGIN IT offset these alphabets causing them to produce varying results. The lowercase alphabets are the guides on the outside of the Tableau, the 'ALPHABET', the 26 letter phrase, is entered vertically and then each horizontal is filled into provide the results in the grid of the chart....the chart is just a partial example to explain the process.
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
a Bcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyza
b Efghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcd
c Ghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdef
d Ijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefgh
e Nopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijklm
f Ijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefgh
g Tuvwxyzabcdefghijklmnopqrs
This produces what is known as a varying shift in each alphabet......a good example is the Kryptos Puzzle on the CIAs grounds at Langley.....Hint Hint....it is set up with the same settings and mechanics...just pop in the poem's first letter of every word, and then find the letter in the tableau like a mileage chart from city to city.
I am guessing Fenn did a little work mimicking that one or studied its methods finding it suitable for a theme of espionage related discovery as a bit of excitement.
The three 26 letter messages derive what is known as a coded message....
Complete with X's at every break in between words and phrases.....
This is a Military Coding system and when I ran the final Brute Force Analysis, it produced something that made so much sense and answered the questions I had about how he was so easily able to know how and where the chest was.......
Here's a segment of one of the 3 last messages.....
frmsdeadixfittralsimti
Read it out loud.....
FROM A DEADFIX TRANSMITTER
This should be enough proof for the forum to show that I have truly found the BLAZE.....
And found both locations...the first being the obvious lure where he left bait to keep you hunting OLD treasures....and the one that is holding the chest......
A muddy flat in a marbled conglomerate canyon......within a few hours drive from Fenn and less than a mile long hike.........
Fenn if you are reading this....... watch out for the 'Lightning' out there in the Desert.......
Using BEGINITWHEREWARMWATERSHALT vertically and entering the 166 letters from first letters of every word.
To Derive the coded message.
FROM : bpdzbpxbdixfpibildbdfrnbffpddddbxppxilnnfxnxdbpfxdffnxpnbnxinrprlnxfnbljindpbddpjfdbnxfpmljmxifxldiznxxibzpbldppxpizbpixnbxlxbpbbplpxbnpdldibbpzjrdfdxipjbfbpxdpzjxxxz
Which then Deciphers into a broken message thats somewhat legible and in shorthand to accommodate for the multiple variations and alignments required to conceal it.
iivaigrytperyeduechormdatatvvidtryrethwpbuttbubolafmneustkerpalyerietisiompebyrcfllidtoamaligabedlalbithdinwashmebinbearnatimbeatwemporplereatcyfrmsdeadixfittralsimti
Every scrapbook that's made is a reflection of Fenn's thoughts, as he is looking at one of the many Arches in New Mexico...
Surprising that nobody has picked up on this yet.....each Scrapbook posted has direct relation in its description to the corresponding numbered Arch on the New Mexico record.
Fenn being an avid explorer has obviously made numerous hikes to these areas to fish and travel through.
Some of the most beautiful arches are very picturesque and all hold a likeness to an animal or face or a "RAINBOW"
Take a look for yourself.....there are hundreds of them photographed on Google Earth near the New Mexico/Colorado Borders, and the numbers accompany them.....
These are symbolic of matching numbers in the codes.
He made the poem with an Architect.....that focuses in his trade with Structure and Mechanics of Design.
I know that these structures hold a design patterning and a symmetry to them in almost every design.
The same is true for the symbolism added to every part of the Chase and the hints he leaves.
Forrest's hypothetical Blaze is a Cipher made by Blaise D Vigenere
Here's the process to decipher the coded messages......
First there are 6 clues of descriptive 'nature' in the 6 paragraphs......these describe the landmarks....
The remaining 3 clues are messages that are derived from running a standard poly-alphabetic substitution cipher through a Vigenere Tableau using the first letter of each word as a Ciphertext.
From here its no place for the meek......literally....you need to be very analytical and focused on a multi layered process to identify the mechanics of these systems of encoding as they take a few steps and the initial results do not form a message until after a few moves.....these multiple stages were also used to flatten the letter frequencies and to make a ton of double and triple bigrams.....
If you were WISE and FOUND THE BLAISE, LOOK QUICKLY DOWN meant that you entered these special sequences of 26 letters into the table and used the poem as a tool to derive 3 extra messages.
He even hinted at the poem holding a table like this.....by hinting at a mileage chart VERY early on. Its 8.25 north of Santa Fe and 300 miles west of Toledo......This is very suspect as it is not only literal but symbolic of a mileage CHART....the same layout that a Vigenere CHART is made with.
To locate the messages you enter each letter of the first letter of the poem into the system the same way a mileage chart works, and as you see the convergence in the chart, the corresponding letter will be located at that point. The individual letters in a standard Vigenere Tableau will all feature the same resulting patterns, as to its known layouts, so a computer program will make it crack in seconds, and letter frequency programs will easily align the exact messages.
Fenn being trained in codes and communications from being a pilot knew this, and his friends in the CIA who were investigating Ciphers of the CIA, Barry Goldwater and others obviously knew he could keep secrets if they all were "close friends on digs and adventures". His ability to use textbook systems was developed by pros who knew how to flatten out the frequencies and make these ciphers almost invincible to computing devices that rip through trillions of variables for an easy win in seconds.
In order to do that with any multi layered system, they have to have a certain phrase to enter into the alphabet of the tableau to cause a poly-alphabetic shift. This means from an analytical point of view the exact opposite results are produced in the program showing that a master has planned their every move out to deceive them at each step.
In order to develop a shifting tableau that varies to deliver almost infinite amount of variable and a few key messages, you have to have exactly 26 letters to use.......
Guess what.....?
There are exactly 3 lines in the poem that form 26 letter alphabets.
Begin it where warm waters halt
Just heavy loads and water high
I've done it tired and now I'm weak
Taking these phrases and entering them into the Blaze (Blaise D' Vigenere), I place them in the first column vertically (look quickly down), and then finish the alphabets off horizontally from the letter, rounding over from Z to A where needed.
For Example Below: Notice how the words BEGIN IT offset these alphabets causing them to produce varying results. The lowercase alphabets are the guides on the outside of the Tableau, the 'ALPHABET', the 26 letter phrase, is entered vertically and then each horizontal is filled into provide the results in the grid of the chart....the chart is just a partial example to explain the process.
abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz
a Bcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyza
b Efghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcd
c Ghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdef
d Ijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefgh
e Nopqrstuvwxyzabcdefghijklm
f Ijklmnopqrstuvwxyzabcdefgh
g Tuvwxyzabcdefghijklmnopqrs
This produces what is known as a varying shift in each alphabet......a good example is the Kryptos Puzzle on the CIAs grounds at Langley.....Hint Hint....it is set up with the same settings and mechanics...just pop in the poem's first letter of every word, and then find the letter in the tableau like a mileage chart from city to city.
I am guessing Fenn did a little work mimicking that one or studied its methods finding it suitable for a theme of espionage related discovery as a bit of excitement.
The three 26 letter messages derive what is known as a coded message....
Complete with X's at every break in between words and phrases.....
This is a Military Coding system and when I ran the final Brute Force Analysis, it produced something that made so much sense and answered the questions I had about how he was so easily able to know how and where the chest was.......
Here's a segment of one of the 3 last messages.....
frmsdeadixfittralsimti
Read it out loud.....
FROM A DEADFIX TRANSMITTER
This should be enough proof for the forum to show that I have truly found the BLAZE.....
And found both locations...the first being the obvious lure where he left bait to keep you hunting OLD treasures....and the one that is holding the chest......
A muddy flat in a marbled conglomerate canyon......within a few hours drive from Fenn and less than a mile long hike.........
Fenn if you are reading this....... watch out for the 'Lightning' out there in the Desert.......
Using BEGINITWHEREWARMWATERSHALT vertically and entering the 166 letters from first letters of every word.
To Derive the coded message.
FROM : bpdzbpxbdixfpibildbdfrnbffpddddbxppxilnnfxnxdbpfxdffnxpnbnxinrprlnxfnbljindpbddpjfdbnxfpmljmxifxldiznxxibzpbldppxpizbpixnbxlxbpbbplpxbnpdldibbpzjrdfdxipjbfbpxdpzjxxxz
Which then Deciphers into a broken message thats somewhat legible and in shorthand to accommodate for the multiple variations and alignments required to conceal it.
iivaigrytperyeduechormdatatvvidtryrethwpbuttbubolafmneustkerpalyerietisiompebyrcfllidtoamaligabedlalbithdinwashmebinbearnatimbeatwemporplereatcyfrmsdeadixfittralsimti
Every scrapbook that's made is a reflection of Fenn's thoughts, as he is looking at one of the many Arches in New Mexico...
Surprising that nobody has picked up on this yet.....each Scrapbook posted has direct relation in its description to the corresponding numbered Arch on the New Mexico record.
Fenn being an avid explorer has obviously made numerous hikes to these areas to fish and travel through.
Some of the most beautiful arches are very picturesque and all hold a likeness to an animal or face or a "RAINBOW"
Take a look for yourself.....there are hundreds of them photographed on Google Earth near the New Mexico/Colorado Borders, and the numbers accompany them.....
These are symbolic of matching numbers in the codes.
He made the poem with an Architect.....that focuses in his trade with Structure and Mechanics of Design.
I know that these structures hold a design patterning and a symmetry to them in almost every design.
The same is true for the symbolism added to every part of the Chase and the hints he leaves.
Last edited:
H-2 CHARLIE
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Not in our lifetime
Eldo
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The System of ciphers can also be represented as a graph or grid or grille cipher structure set up be entering the first letters into a series of Pairs of Graphs....
The poem has 6 paragraphs....... or pairs of graphs that are 6x6....if you enter the letters you forma structure of a crossword like puzzle....
The last phrase is made to derive a message as well.....a hint at Fenn's insider knowledge of certain affairs relating to espionage and intelligence.....
The line is drawn where 144 letters ends and the message is added at the end as the phrase "6 pair of graphs" forms a 12x12 or 144 numbered theme....
There are some very strong hints here.
Forrest loves crosswords.......lol
The poem has 6 paragraphs....... or pairs of graphs that are 6x6....if you enter the letters you forma structure of a crossword like puzzle....
The last phrase is made to derive a message as well.....a hint at Fenn's insider knowledge of certain affairs relating to espionage and intelligence.....
The line is drawn where 144 letters ends and the message is added at the end as the phrase "6 pair of graphs" forms a 12x12 or 144 numbered theme....
There are some very strong hints here.
Forrest loves crosswords.......lol
Last edited:
Hobo
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What an imagination!
InkingHubris
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Since this thread was supposed to be about the treasure and the hunt for said treasure, has died and come back, has been taken over by zealots and radicals and returned, I will refrain from opening another thread in the hopes it will just stay on topic. (I know, high hopes)
I have basically returned to this hunt after 7 years because I am at a point where all my other projects have been put on hold and I have to occupy my time. I seriously thought it would have been solved by now, but alas, I feel it has not. So I wanted to chime in with my thoughts as I have come up with them so far. Feed back welcome. Religion, demons, hate and unproven theories that it has been solved and I am wasting my time... are not. I will preface by saying I do not have a solve or a location, yet. As I am currently in England, I find it difficult to state for certain of either. When I get boots on the ground, that will change, of course.
Fenn has stated time and again that we should start at the beginning. He has repeated this over and over. What if (all of my statements will be a what if, btw) he is talking about the poem? He says you won't find it without the proper starting point, then goes on to remind us to start at the beginning. Has anyone thought how weird it is to have started the poem where he did? I refer you to Gilligan's Island... the theme song starts off "Sit right back and you'll hear a tale..." Shel Silverstein starts his poems "Listen to the musn'ts child, listen to the don'ts"... Fairy tales all start "Once upon a time..." or a narrator saying "Sit down and let me tell you a tale..." So, why then, is Fenn's starting phrase in Stanza 5?
Fenn says not to mess with his poem. This to me, means that we don't need to anagram anything, we don't need to find ciphers. Double meanings, word alliteration, etc, sure, but leave the poem itself, alone. However, If you start reading with Stanza 5 and continue around to end at stanza 4, it reads a whole lot better. When Fenn said that people had solved the first two clues but skipped over the other 7... how else does that make sense? Maybe all 9 clues were solved correctly but clues 1 and 2 from stanzas 5 and 6 came last? This would put them starting at a different spot, essentially skipping the last 7 clues, making only the first 2 correct.
My second observation was the way the first stanza read. I now firmly believe that you have to change the meter of your reading and put the emphasis on the correct syllables. Take the last two lines: I can keep my secret where, And hint at riches new and old. When I first started reading the poem I always kept asking myself "where?" you can keep your secret, where
? then, why start a new line with "and" that makes no sense grammatically, or literally. I first tried to solve this by once again rearranging the poem, trying to find matching rhyming lines that would make the "and" at the start of a line make sense as well as finish the sentence "where".
Then it dawned on me (meaning I was up all night)... In England they have the same words we do in the US they just say them differently. The only difference is where they put the emphasis. we say toe-MAY-toe they say toe-mah-TOE, we say Ah-LUME-eh-NUM they say AL-you-MINI-um. I then applied this logic to the poem. When I changed the emphasis "I can keep my secret, where" became "I can keep my (secret where)" as in a 2 word phrase with a single meaning, a place. my hiding spot, my secret where. It's as if he named the spot Secret Where.
Doing so allowed me then to read the poem and have that stanza make sense... I can keep my hiding spot, and hint at riches....
The next thing that bugged me was the two lines that don't rhyme: WWWH and NFBTFTW... halt and walk are not rhyming words. With the careful planning that went in to this, I couldn't imagine how he could not rhyme two words. If it was just the literal meaning he was after... it would be easy enough to say something like: Where warm water halts.... not far but too far to waltz. Therefore, halt and or walk has to be said for a reason. The obvious choice is WWWH, we focus so much on this line because of the connotations with the beginning that we seem to have. It says begin, so this is where we really begin... but I stopped that after a couple of days and focused instead on walk. If he wanted to indicate movement and rhyme with halt (to keep the possessive "waters" and singular "halt" intact, he could have easily said "vault" meaning to move ahead greatly, or with large strides, and it would still fit the "too far" clue.
But why walk? "Nowhere is too far to walk. if you have the time" - Steven Wright, Comedian.
This leads me to a cliff or overhang of some kind. You can look down to the next point, or clue and see it. It's just right there... but you can't walk to it. I also applied this to the meaning in a less literal sense... a trail end (he has said there are no man made trails near by). Maybe the man made trail ends here, and you have to keep going where it isn't advised, allowed, or frowned upon (not meaning trespassing, but more like the trail masters put up a sign saying no trail beyond this point, or something similar that I have seen all over the country). Or, perhaps his frustration hint in one of his interviews where he said "I wish someone would just take a bike and go in there and get it" means the walking trail ends and the bike trail begins. I know when camping as a kid I rode on a ton of natural made bike trails... they were just there, you had to get off your bike to clear brush and limbs, etc.
I have more to decode and work on, but I will leave it as is for now. I seem to have a penchant for lengthy posts. I'll try to keep this in sizeable chunks for now.
I still think everyone is reading the poem wrong, we need to start there if we ever plan to solve it correctly.
I have basically returned to this hunt after 7 years because I am at a point where all my other projects have been put on hold and I have to occupy my time. I seriously thought it would have been solved by now, but alas, I feel it has not. So I wanted to chime in with my thoughts as I have come up with them so far. Feed back welcome. Religion, demons, hate and unproven theories that it has been solved and I am wasting my time... are not. I will preface by saying I do not have a solve or a location, yet. As I am currently in England, I find it difficult to state for certain of either. When I get boots on the ground, that will change, of course.
Fenn has stated time and again that we should start at the beginning. He has repeated this over and over. What if (all of my statements will be a what if, btw) he is talking about the poem? He says you won't find it without the proper starting point, then goes on to remind us to start at the beginning. Has anyone thought how weird it is to have started the poem where he did? I refer you to Gilligan's Island... the theme song starts off "Sit right back and you'll hear a tale..." Shel Silverstein starts his poems "Listen to the musn'ts child, listen to the don'ts"... Fairy tales all start "Once upon a time..." or a narrator saying "Sit down and let me tell you a tale..." So, why then, is Fenn's starting phrase in Stanza 5?
Fenn says not to mess with his poem. This to me, means that we don't need to anagram anything, we don't need to find ciphers. Double meanings, word alliteration, etc, sure, but leave the poem itself, alone. However, If you start reading with Stanza 5 and continue around to end at stanza 4, it reads a whole lot better. When Fenn said that people had solved the first two clues but skipped over the other 7... how else does that make sense? Maybe all 9 clues were solved correctly but clues 1 and 2 from stanzas 5 and 6 came last? This would put them starting at a different spot, essentially skipping the last 7 clues, making only the first 2 correct.
My second observation was the way the first stanza read. I now firmly believe that you have to change the meter of your reading and put the emphasis on the correct syllables. Take the last two lines: I can keep my secret where, And hint at riches new and old. When I first started reading the poem I always kept asking myself "where?" you can keep your secret, where
? then, why start a new line with "and" that makes no sense grammatically, or literally. I first tried to solve this by once again rearranging the poem, trying to find matching rhyming lines that would make the "and" at the start of a line make sense as well as finish the sentence "where".Then it dawned on me (meaning I was up all night)... In England they have the same words we do in the US they just say them differently. The only difference is where they put the emphasis. we say toe-MAY-toe they say toe-mah-TOE, we say Ah-LUME-eh-NUM they say AL-you-MINI-um. I then applied this logic to the poem. When I changed the emphasis "I can keep my secret, where" became "I can keep my (secret where)" as in a 2 word phrase with a single meaning, a place. my hiding spot, my secret where. It's as if he named the spot Secret Where.
Doing so allowed me then to read the poem and have that stanza make sense... I can keep my hiding spot, and hint at riches....
The next thing that bugged me was the two lines that don't rhyme: WWWH and NFBTFTW... halt and walk are not rhyming words. With the careful planning that went in to this, I couldn't imagine how he could not rhyme two words. If it was just the literal meaning he was after... it would be easy enough to say something like: Where warm water halts.... not far but too far to waltz. Therefore, halt and or walk has to be said for a reason. The obvious choice is WWWH, we focus so much on this line because of the connotations with the beginning that we seem to have. It says begin, so this is where we really begin... but I stopped that after a couple of days and focused instead on walk. If he wanted to indicate movement and rhyme with halt (to keep the possessive "waters" and singular "halt" intact, he could have easily said "vault" meaning to move ahead greatly, or with large strides, and it would still fit the "too far" clue.
But why walk? "Nowhere is too far to walk. if you have the time" - Steven Wright, Comedian.
This leads me to a cliff or overhang of some kind. You can look down to the next point, or clue and see it. It's just right there... but you can't walk to it. I also applied this to the meaning in a less literal sense... a trail end (he has said there are no man made trails near by). Maybe the man made trail ends here, and you have to keep going where it isn't advised, allowed, or frowned upon (not meaning trespassing, but more like the trail masters put up a sign saying no trail beyond this point, or something similar that I have seen all over the country). Or, perhaps his frustration hint in one of his interviews where he said "I wish someone would just take a bike and go in there and get it" means the walking trail ends and the bike trail begins. I know when camping as a kid I rode on a ton of natural made bike trails... they were just there, you had to get off your bike to clear brush and limbs, etc.
I have more to decode and work on, but I will leave it as is for now. I seem to have a penchant for lengthy posts. I'll try to keep this in sizeable chunks for now.
I still think everyone is reading the poem wrong, we need to start there if we ever plan to solve it correctly.
Last edited:
InkingHubris
Jr. Member
- Feb 14, 2017
- 26
- 25
- Primary Interest:
- Cache Hunting
Good luck in your search! You are further than I am. I am yet to define a starting point.
My next part, now, will be the blaze. I will tell you up front I have no idea where it is. However, with my method of solving the clues, I do believe it really is the last major clue. Using stanza 4 as the last stanza of the poem (as I explained in my previous post) When you see the blaze, your quest is over, find the chest, take it and go home to celebrate.
I do have one idea of what the blaze actually is, though. This is based on nothing more than my own interpretation and some of the things that Fenn has said in interviews and online.
Fenn says (and it is not a direct quote, but close enough) "If you start out looking for the blaze you will never find it" This had a major impact on what I was originally thinking. I now firmly believe that you won't ever "find" the blaze until you are there looking at it. It is a marker of sorts. You should have the other clues figured out and have moved from one to the other (with confidence) and the blaze is the sign to stop and look for the chest, your quest has ended, grab your reward.
In the beginning, I thought that the blaze marked a cave entrance or lined up with the previous clue/marker to align you towards the end game. However, after listening to Fenn we can assume the blaze is white. Every time he was asked about it he would say it could be a white rock or a white tree... whatever he said it could be, he usually always said "white". Perhaps this was a Freudian slip.
Based on my research and understanding, I do think it is white. I don't think it is a streak in rock, or a tree though. In this instance I believe the blaze is an actual marker. but you won't readily see it. Google Maps, Google Earth, TOPO maps.. none of these will show it. You will have to be there, in person and all but on top of it to see it. I kept coming back to horse blaze and thought about how a horse blaze could be and then decided to define the actual word. Animals actually rarely came up in the definitions (books people, stop typing so much) One such definition that caught my attention: a conspicuous display or outburst of something.
Knowing Fenn has a penchant for the double-entendre, I applied both... I now think that the blaze is either a rock in a pile (think Shawshank Redemption: At the base of that wall, you'll find a rock that has no earthly business in a Maine hayfield. Piece of black, volcanic glass.) Perhaps the chest is hidden under a pile of rocks and there is one white one that makes the pile stand out. My main thought though is that there is actually a horse there. Or a buffalo. The skull. In all it's white and bony glory, and underneath it lies the chest. (so easy a kid could walk up and take it).
This supports a few of my theories. First.. size. The chest is about the size of a standard dinner plate and 6" high. This can easily fit, hidden, under a horse skull. Second, the chest is bronze, it won't stick out, even if you could see it. First the vegetation would have grown over, second the patina after being exposed to the elements would make it turn green, brown, black and dull. Perfect camouflage in a grassy, unkempt area. You aren't going to be able to walk along and just look for shiny things. Nothing about the chest will be shiny any more (except the inside!). (Remember Fenn said "I didn't say it was buried, I said it was hidden")
Second, the phrase "look quickly down". People have debated this since the line was first read. I will admit that when I first read it I thought it would be something like "look at your map/hands/markers/etc" and perhaps there was an image you could make out, or an X fashioned from the markers you plotted along the route. Living over seas for the better part of a year now has opened me up to a lot of new things, language among them. In places such as England and other monarchies, the old language is all but dead. People don't say things like "look quickly down", but they used too. The phrase has many meanings, but the most notable is from the time of Kings and Knights. When in full armor (battle, a ceremony, etc) the knight had his face covered, and to express loyalty, fealty, they couldn't bow their heads, so they instead looked down "quickly" or... kneeled.
So once you find the blaze, kneel down, remove the skull and take the treasure.
I will have more later on my thoughts. This post is getting long enough.
InkingHubris
Jr. Member
- Feb 14, 2017
- 26
- 25
- Primary Interest:
- Cache Hunting
I would like to have a post now to ask and answer some questions. And expand some thoughts that are more "non-poem" related.
Primarily: "Why would you post your thoughts on the solve so publicly?" Yes, I realize that in this instance there are a lot of people that hold their solves close to the vest, least another searcher get there first. I hear and read a lot of the "I will be going to check my solve location in X number of months/weeks/etc" so until then, they don't want to reveal anything. My thoughts on this are.. it's personal. Your choice. I don't have a solve yet, as I have stated many times before. I don't have a starting point. So, my thoughts aren't leading me to a specific place as of yet. (I'm working on it, give me a break, been active on this for about a week and 3 days now... give me a chance). It is my impression that if you have a solve point you are certain of, then my thoughts and posts won't change your mind. And if they do, you probably shouldn't be heading out just yet anyway, as your solve isn't so solid. I have no problems helping each other out. Brain storming here and there about what may or may not work. If my thoughts lead someone else to the chest, then so be it. It will hurt a little, but over all I will be happy the chest was found. And perhaps the finder will acknowledge me for the help by privately saying thanks and perhaps sending a few of the coins to me so I have something to look at and hold for the efforts.
Which leads me to a thought I have been holding for a while now. What to do when the chest is found. I don't think it should be made a huge deal of. Not at the start. Let's assume that I am the one to find it. My plan is thus: I am taking the chest and it's contents. I will put it in my back pack and scoot on back to my little home. FIRST, however, I will take a picture of the location with the chest there. I will then include a picture of me opening the chest (just my arm though). This I will use as the proof it was found. I will also back track and take pictures of all the points that the clues hinted at. The blaze, the HoB, etc. I will then take an inventory of the chest. He said there are 265 gold coins in there. One thing I fear is that someone will find it, take it and never say a word. I don't want this. I will have with me a notepad, a pencil, and a baggie with tape. I will then put about 50 or so gold coins in the bag, along with a note and a pencil. The note will say something to the effect of: "Here is the resting spot of Forrest Fenns treasure. I found it on {date} and have left this small cache behind for those that come behind me. Please be kind to the other searchers and leave them a little something as well. Take a few coins for your effort and sign and date the note. Then I will have my initials, the date and hope that others follow along, take a few coins, sign your initials, the date you found it and how many coins you took."
This way, if someone comes along behind me before I have made it public that it has in fact been found, the follow up searchers don't leave in vein with no knowledge they actually were correct in their solve.
Perhaps we can make this mandatory. I think it would be evil and unfair to not leave something behind letting the next person know they, too, were correct. Then I will send Fenn an email from a brand new account that simply says I have found it and send the pictures of the chest and me opening it. He can then hold up his end of letting the news agencies know it was found, or not. But I won't give him my personal info so that he has plausible deniability when he gets asked about who found it. (or his estate if he has passed on).
I just think that is good etiquette for all treasure hunters.
That said, I wanted to talk about some of the non-poem clues Fenn has given.
There was some speculation (as I have seen, even here) about the actual location being in THE rocky mountains, as opposed to a mountain that has rocks. I listened to another interview very carefully and listened as he spoke. "It is in the rocky mountains." he says. Not in a rocky mountain, not in rocky mountains. He says THE rocky mountains. Case closed. For those slick enough to think he was misleading and it isn't in the mountain chain known as the rockies.. you are wrong.
Next, and my biggest concern, is the clues where he gives distances. above 5000ft, below 15000 feet. 300 miles west of Toledo. at least 8 point 25 miles north of Santa Fe.
I could be wrong here, but I think the 300 miles west of Toledo hint was more of a jab than an actual hint. When I first came across this hint it was in a video and he was answering a question about an email. I can't find the video now, only the text with the hint inside. If I remember correctly though the lady in Ohio was asking where it was and he (jokingly) told her it was 300 miles west of Toledo. I will have to find the video to verify because I am not taking anyone else's word on hints except for Fenn's. Watch this space, I may have to edit.
The one that really gets me is the 8.25 miles north hint. This is a rather exact number. Why not say eight and a half? or just eight? He didn't say "eight and a quarter" he said eight point two five. Why?? I can't figure this one out yet. It's too specific to not be relevant. The only thing I can come up with so far is that the old Spanish priests that have been known to hide caches all over the south and mid west of the US measured in near exacts and they used a measurement known as a Var. Perhaps this is some sort of homage to these Spanish leavers of treasure? 1 var is 8.25 feet. 1 mile is 5280 feet. 1 Mile then is 640 Vars and 8.25 miles is 5280 vars. (Someone please check my math! haha)
The exactness of the measurement (8.25 miles) is just weird. I really want to figure this one out, treasure or not, just for my own sanity.
How about this "hint": What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve. What the heck does he mean? There is an important POSSIBILITY. Well, Hell. Everything is a possibility. What is there left to analyze that hasn't been gone of a thousand times already? What are we missing? Could he be referring to the way to read the poem (starting on the 5th stanza)? Something else? Reverse engineering the clues won't help get you tot he starting point. I believe it all hinges on finding the starting point. From there you will be able to follow the clues right to the treasure. Is the start where warm waters halt? Is it something before that? What could be possible??
Next was when he said "The clues did not exist when I was a kid but of most of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years." So... the clues didn't exist when he was a kid. Lest go so far as to say the clues didn't exist 60 years ago. One could say, well obviously, he hadn't written them yet. (I say that). The next part is what throws me. "MOST of the places the clues refer to did" is this to say that not all of the places existed 60 years ago? How does a place appear in 60 years? My horse head theory makes that a possibility. Maybe the warm waters weren't halting and now they are halted?
Finally, Fenn said "Many are giving serious thought to the clues in my poem, but only a few are in tight focus with a word that is key." There is a single word in the poem that is key. As we all know Fenn's pet peeve is that we aren't starting at the beginning. I don't think the key word to focus on will lead us to the blaze, or the warm waters, or the chest itself. I believe it will lead to the elusive starting point. What is this word? Which of the 166 words is key above all others? I have yet to figure this one out as well.
I will be heading back to the states this weekend. Hopefully some time in the coming few weeks I can get boots on the ground. Until then, I probably won't be posting these long winded opinion posts until after I get settled later next week. I will check in when I can though. Your turn! Go! haha
Primarily: "Why would you post your thoughts on the solve so publicly?" Yes, I realize that in this instance there are a lot of people that hold their solves close to the vest, least another searcher get there first. I hear and read a lot of the "I will be going to check my solve location in X number of months/weeks/etc" so until then, they don't want to reveal anything. My thoughts on this are.. it's personal. Your choice. I don't have a solve yet, as I have stated many times before. I don't have a starting point. So, my thoughts aren't leading me to a specific place as of yet. (I'm working on it, give me a break, been active on this for about a week and 3 days now... give me a chance). It is my impression that if you have a solve point you are certain of, then my thoughts and posts won't change your mind. And if they do, you probably shouldn't be heading out just yet anyway, as your solve isn't so solid. I have no problems helping each other out. Brain storming here and there about what may or may not work. If my thoughts lead someone else to the chest, then so be it. It will hurt a little, but over all I will be happy the chest was found. And perhaps the finder will acknowledge me for the help by privately saying thanks and perhaps sending a few of the coins to me so I have something to look at and hold for the efforts.
Which leads me to a thought I have been holding for a while now. What to do when the chest is found. I don't think it should be made a huge deal of. Not at the start. Let's assume that I am the one to find it. My plan is thus: I am taking the chest and it's contents. I will put it in my back pack and scoot on back to my little home. FIRST, however, I will take a picture of the location with the chest there. I will then include a picture of me opening the chest (just my arm though). This I will use as the proof it was found. I will also back track and take pictures of all the points that the clues hinted at. The blaze, the HoB, etc. I will then take an inventory of the chest. He said there are 265 gold coins in there. One thing I fear is that someone will find it, take it and never say a word. I don't want this. I will have with me a notepad, a pencil, and a baggie with tape. I will then put about 50 or so gold coins in the bag, along with a note and a pencil. The note will say something to the effect of: "Here is the resting spot of Forrest Fenns treasure. I found it on {date} and have left this small cache behind for those that come behind me. Please be kind to the other searchers and leave them a little something as well. Take a few coins for your effort and sign and date the note. Then I will have my initials, the date and hope that others follow along, take a few coins, sign your initials, the date you found it and how many coins you took."
This way, if someone comes along behind me before I have made it public that it has in fact been found, the follow up searchers don't leave in vein with no knowledge they actually were correct in their solve.
Perhaps we can make this mandatory. I think it would be evil and unfair to not leave something behind letting the next person know they, too, were correct. Then I will send Fenn an email from a brand new account that simply says I have found it and send the pictures of the chest and me opening it. He can then hold up his end of letting the news agencies know it was found, or not. But I won't give him my personal info so that he has plausible deniability when he gets asked about who found it. (or his estate if he has passed on).
I just think that is good etiquette for all treasure hunters.
That said, I wanted to talk about some of the non-poem clues Fenn has given.
There was some speculation (as I have seen, even here) about the actual location being in THE rocky mountains, as opposed to a mountain that has rocks. I listened to another interview very carefully and listened as he spoke. "It is in the rocky mountains." he says. Not in a rocky mountain, not in rocky mountains. He says THE rocky mountains. Case closed. For those slick enough to think he was misleading and it isn't in the mountain chain known as the rockies.. you are wrong.
Next, and my biggest concern, is the clues where he gives distances. above 5000ft, below 15000 feet. 300 miles west of Toledo. at least 8 point 25 miles north of Santa Fe.
I could be wrong here, but I think the 300 miles west of Toledo hint was more of a jab than an actual hint. When I first came across this hint it was in a video and he was answering a question about an email. I can't find the video now, only the text with the hint inside. If I remember correctly though the lady in Ohio was asking where it was and he (jokingly) told her it was 300 miles west of Toledo. I will have to find the video to verify because I am not taking anyone else's word on hints except for Fenn's. Watch this space, I may have to edit.
The one that really gets me is the 8.25 miles north hint. This is a rather exact number. Why not say eight and a half? or just eight? He didn't say "eight and a quarter" he said eight point two five. Why?? I can't figure this one out yet. It's too specific to not be relevant. The only thing I can come up with so far is that the old Spanish priests that have been known to hide caches all over the south and mid west of the US measured in near exacts and they used a measurement known as a Var. Perhaps this is some sort of homage to these Spanish leavers of treasure? 1 var is 8.25 feet. 1 mile is 5280 feet. 1 Mile then is 640 Vars and 8.25 miles is 5280 vars. (Someone please check my math! haha)
The exactness of the measurement (8.25 miles) is just weird. I really want to figure this one out, treasure or not, just for my own sanity.
How about this "hint": What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve. What the heck does he mean? There is an important POSSIBILITY. Well, Hell. Everything is a possibility. What is there left to analyze that hasn't been gone of a thousand times already? What are we missing? Could he be referring to the way to read the poem (starting on the 5th stanza)? Something else? Reverse engineering the clues won't help get you tot he starting point. I believe it all hinges on finding the starting point. From there you will be able to follow the clues right to the treasure. Is the start where warm waters halt? Is it something before that? What could be possible??
Next was when he said "The clues did not exist when I was a kid but of most of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years." So... the clues didn't exist when he was a kid. Lest go so far as to say the clues didn't exist 60 years ago. One could say, well obviously, he hadn't written them yet. (I say that). The next part is what throws me. "MOST of the places the clues refer to did" is this to say that not all of the places existed 60 years ago? How does a place appear in 60 years? My horse head theory makes that a possibility. Maybe the warm waters weren't halting and now they are halted?
Finally, Fenn said "Many are giving serious thought to the clues in my poem, but only a few are in tight focus with a word that is key." There is a single word in the poem that is key. As we all know Fenn's pet peeve is that we aren't starting at the beginning. I don't think the key word to focus on will lead us to the blaze, or the warm waters, or the chest itself. I believe it will lead to the elusive starting point. What is this word? Which of the 166 words is key above all others? I have yet to figure this one out as well.
I will be heading back to the states this weekend. Hopefully some time in the coming few weeks I can get boots on the ground. Until then, I probably won't be posting these long winded opinion posts until after I get settled later next week. I will check in when I can though. Your turn! Go! haha
au-artifax
Full Member
- May 23, 2013
- 233
- 90
- Detector(s) used
- Various Seismic generators and magnetic anomoly detector equipment (MADs).
- Primary Interest:
- Cache Hunting
El "doh!". I know you worked hard to learn as much as you could about ciphers, so you could talk about them, but the discussion is all over the place. It is erronous to think pilots are generally trained in reading codes and ciphers... to the point of it being almost comedic! Pilots in any capacity would not have the amount of time resources to become proficient in ciphering. I flew in the USN and it wasn't until moving laterally into the intel pileline that the thought of ciphering even came up. So I do have enough of a background to know that you are stretching some things and taking all the rest out of context. Example: a solution to any code wouln NOT be in a short hyphenated or shorthand format. Really!? Do you honestly believe anyone would leave a message important enough to encrypt up for interpretation!?
Save you breath L Dough. Only true conspiracy theorists would accept the "code" approach, and true experts maybe giggle a little, but now it's getting old.
Here's a possibility though if you want to pursue the Vigenere cipher thought... use the words "thrill of the chase" as your key.
BTW, you mixed up your explanations of the various cipher techniques, much the way a person cramming knowledge of a subject would do while trying to recall the details. Of course this is just IMHO, based on my years of cryptology, field operations and electronic warfare in the military. But what do I know.
One small little addendum.... many of your clues are not permanent objects or places. A hundred years from now, how many of your relied upon clues would even exist?
Save you breath L Dough. Only true conspiracy theorists would accept the "code" approach, and true experts maybe giggle a little, but now it's getting old.
Here's a possibility though if you want to pursue the Vigenere cipher thought... use the words "thrill of the chase" as your key.
BTW, you mixed up your explanations of the various cipher techniques, much the way a person cramming knowledge of a subject would do while trying to recall the details. Of course this is just IMHO, based on my years of cryptology, field operations and electronic warfare in the military. But what do I know.
One small little addendum.... many of your clues are not permanent objects or places. A hundred years from now, how many of your relied upon clues would even exist?
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