Ely's description of where Ruth's body was found - an experiment...

[azdave35]

Dave - that's a great point and I can't argue it. Heck, we heard rumors of possible odd circumstances around the deaths of Jesse Capan as well as the guys found by Rick Gwynn and I get the feeling the authorities really didn't want to dig too deeply into any possible foul play stories and those were recent. I can't help but agree that back then there were more important things to deal with than a "crazy prospector" dying in the mountains unless there was a witness to the murder or something. You're right that the Ruth thing wouldn't have made news except for who he and his family were. I doubt we'll ever really know what happened to him, who may have been involved or where it actually happened. Who knows, maybe he had plans to meet someone else out there who would take him around to some places and ended up having a heart attack or something.

Oh well - it'll always be an interesting intellectual discussion.

even in these times the law doesn't put much effort into finding out why someone died in the mountains...unless his family raises hell....alot more people than you think turn up missing in those mountains...most of them are loners or derelicts with no family so they never even make the news...as far as ruth goes..my guess is there are people around that know what happened to ruth..but i doubt if they will ever post on a public forum

 

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[deducer]

Dave - that's a great point and I can't argue it. Heck, we heard rumors of possible odd circumstances around the deaths of Jesse Capan as well as the guys found by Rick Gwynn and I get the feeling the authorities really didn't want to dig too deeply into any possible foul play stories and those were recent. I can't help but agree that back then there were more important things to deal with than a "crazy prospector" dying in the mountains unless there was a witness to the murder or something. You're right that the Ruth thing wouldn't have made news except for who he and his family were. I doubt we'll ever really know what happened to him, who may have been involved or where it actually happened. Who knows, maybe he had plans to meet someone else out there who would take him around to some places and ended up having a heart attack or something.

Oh well - it'll always be an interesting intellectual discussion.

The prevailing, or convenient explanation for why Tex Barkley allegedly moved the body was because "his cattle would have been scattered from here to kingdom come" (as related by Gassler in his manuscript, p. 19-20) by treasure hunters or searchers which further reinforces the theory that Ruth was originally found on Peter's Mesa because that is where Barkley ran his cattle.

The other thing is that the discovery of the body would put an end to the official search/investigation. It would have taken the heat off the sheriffs who were involved.

 

[markmar]

Markmar

I don't believe it covers the whole Superstition Range, It funneled every gold seeker after waltz's passing into a 2mile by 2 mile Box. Now does the SOJ mining interest cover the whole range. Absolutely

babymick1

Mick

The 2 miles by 2 miles box in a specific place , I believe is only your opinion . Waltz gave routes from both south end and north end of the mountains . So , that box could be anywhere in the range .
Ruth was clever , but he didn't know to " read " the maps . He died trying to solve the Perfil mapa , which IMO is a very difficult to decrypt map . This map was made only for those who knew from where to begin , for the Peraltas descendants . Enough to find out where that place is .
Also this map has two different views in it . One view is from about a mile afar , and the second view from about half mile afar . Is like a small painting with a big frame . You will see first the frame and after the painting .

 

[ORO18]

I've read the stories same as everyone one else,I think the more appropriate question should be not where his body was found but more why was he killed? I personaly think bluff springs mountain and story are all true only the mix up is it's the jusuit mines or oro blonco minitas de la sombreros means little mines under the hats,these are shallow shaft or pits that go straight down usually here in az, to me the case of Adolph Ruth murder is: he was executed in the vacinity of bluff springs mtn where his parts were recovered as result of discovery of one of the many small surface crops of that "Mamoth"vein or as the Spanish called it oro blanco or # 2he was on the mine and was killed there or ne'er there and dumped at bluff springs area, it was more common than you may think for search and rescue parties to recover a body from that area in those time periods,so did the man crack the codes at bluff springs mtn and find El Negro Oro DE Sombrero and get popped by an apache guard or did a tard kill him at bluff springs mtn?

 

[wrmickel1]

Mick

The 2 miles by 2 miles box in a specific place , I believe is only your opinion . Waltz gave routes from both south end and north end of the mountains . So , that box could be anywhere in the range .
Ruth was clever , but he didn't know to " read " the maps . He died trying to solve the Perfil mapa , which IMO is a very difficult to decrypt map . This map was made only for those who knew from where to begin , for the Peraltas descendants . Enough to find out where that place is .
Also this map has two different views in it . One view is from about a mile afar , and the second view from about half mile afar . Is like a small painting with a big frame . You will see first the frame and after the painting .

The map was drawn by a none Artistic person, And as far as depth to the map, Yeah I walked it, took pic's of the tunnel, The foundation and the To peaks and the end Hoyo. And nobody ever put that together that I know. But I see you figured it out after I posted it. As for the 2/2 my opinion yes, but a lot of good evidence to back it. Starting with Holmes. He followed Waltz though the same area. Herman and Julia camped in that area, Goldfield Mine found in that area while looking for Waltz's Mine. And a lot of other mines claimed in the area looking for Waltz's mine. Then Ruth just by chance goes to that area looking with a map to the lost Dutchman's Mine. Now if so many people head to one certain area looking there, they new something more then you a 140 years later. It's the area, Your trying to fit your theory, to fit out side the box.

babymick1

 

[markmar]

The map was drawn by a none Artistic person, And as far as depth to the map, Yeah I walked it, took pic's of the tunnel, The foundation and the To peaks and the end Hoyo. And nobody ever put that together that I know. But I see you figured it out after I posted it. As for the 2/2 my opinion yes, but a lot of good evidence to back it. Starting with Holmes. He followed Waltz though the same area. Herman and Julia camped in that area, Goldfield Mine found in that area while looking for Waltz's Mine. And a lot of other mines claimed in the area looking for Waltz's mine. Then Ruth just by chance goes to that area looking with a map to the lost Dutchman's Mine. Now if so many people head to one certain area looking there, they new something more then you a 140 years later. It's the area, Your trying to fit your theory, to fit out side the box.

babymick1

Has not matter the artistic hand but the concept . You have to look and understand what the author wanted to show .
If you believe I figured it out after you posted the pictures , then maybe you live in a parallel universe where you believe are the center . I don't need anyone to show me what to do .
​

 

[wrmickel1]

Has not matter the artistic hand but the concept . You have to look and understand what the author wanted to show .
If you believe I figured it out after you posted the pictures , then maybe you live in a parallel universe where you believe are the center . I don't need anyone to show me what to do .
​

Markmar

You've been posting for along Time, And you never said that theory till now, I posted pic's of your theory a month ago.
I must be a mind reader or it's in reverse.

babymick1

 

[deducer]

Another thing which make think how the body was moved , is how the skull was found very afar from the body . This seems to me like someone cut Ruth's head to hide the murder evidence which was the bullet holes .

I read an account which stated that Ruth's skull separated from his body when his decaying corpse was heaved onto the back of a burro for transporting. The whiplash would certainly have done it, and if not, the bumpy ride would have finished the job.

 

[markmar]

I read an account which stated that Ruth's skull separated from his body when his decaying corpse was heaved onto the back of a burro for transporting. The whiplash would certainly have done it, and if not, the bumpy ride would have finished the job.

This could been a version , but if they wanted only to move the body just for the place and without to hide the head , then I believe they should take the head and put it with the body .
There could be many explanation on how Ruth's died , but when it comes to if the body was moved , in some way each explanation/opinion contradicts the other .There are many non-logical events which are attached to every version separately .
IMO , there could exist more unanswered questions when it comes to the versions of moving the Ruth's body than if Ruth died at the place where his corpse was found . In the last case the only question would be , why his head was so far from his body , question that would have more logical answers .
To me , I don't find a reason for Ruth to go on Peters Mesa , a place which was investigated by Ruth in his previous trips in the Superstitions . If he wanted to see or to recognize something from or at Peters Mesa , he had plenty of time to do it before .

 

[markmar]

Markmar

You've been posting for along Time, And you never said that theory till now, I posted pic's of your theory a month ago.
I must be a mind reader or it's in reverse.

babymick1

Is not a theory but what the map represent . If you take all my posts which I have posted about the Perfil mapa , then you will have an almost complete image of how this map was made and what is it's concept .
Seems logical for the profile man head to has the proportion that is shown in the map in comparison with the proportion of EL SOMBRERO ?

A GE image of S.CIMA from the Perfil mapa . Look at it's shadow which is about 400 yards at that date . More than half of the EL SOMBRERO's shadow .

View attachment 1567358

 

[wrmickel1]

Is not a theory but what the map represent . If you take all my posts which I have posted about the Perfil mapa , then you will have an almost complete image of how this map was made and what is it's concept .
Seems logical for the profile man head to has the proportion that is shown in the map in comparison with the proportion of EL SOMBRERO ?

A GE image of S.CIMA from the Perfil mapa . Look at it's shadow which is about 400 yards at that date . More than half of the EL SOMBRERO's shadow .

View attachment 1567358

Marius

I get your theory now, your working on the clue, That the Shadow of El Sombrero points to the Mine.


Babymick1

 

[markmar]

Marius

I get your theory now, your working on the clue, That the Shadow of El Sombrero points to the Mine.


Babymick1

I believe you have got nothing from my previous post . The peak in the picture is the S.CIMA from the Perfil mapa , and not the EL SOMBRERO . Has nothing to do with the clue of WN shadow .

 

[wrmickel1]

I believe you have got nothing from my previous post . The peak in the picture is the S.CIMA from the Perfil mapa , and not the EL SOMBRERO . Has nothing to do with the clue of WN shadow .

Ohh, then I guess it's back to a google earth shadow of Grander Delusion's again.

I guess I don't see what you see at all.

good hunting. Babymick1

 

[markmar]

Ohh, then I guess it's back to a google earth shadow of Grander Delusion's again.

I guess I don't see what you see at all.

good hunting. Babymick1

Is what you want to be . Good hunting to you too .

 

[deducer]

This could been a version , but if they wanted only to move the body just for the place and without to hide the head , then I believe they should take the head and put it with the body .
There could be many explanation on how Ruth's died , but when it comes to if the body was moved , in some way each explanation/opinion contradicts the other .There are many non-logical events which are attached to every version separately .
IMO , there could exist more unanswered questions when it comes to the versions of moving the Ruth's body than if Ruth died at the place where his corpse was found . In the last case the only question would be , why his head was so far from his body , question that would have more logical answers .
To me , I don't find a reason for Ruth to go on Peters Mesa , a place which was investigated by Ruth in his previous trips in the Superstitions . If he wanted to see or to recognize something from or at Peters Mesa , he had plenty of time to do it before .

If what I remember is correct, Barkley allegedly told Gassler that Ruth did not go to Peter's Mesa of his own accord. He was forced to go there. Whoever was with him had recognized the laurel grove marked on the map that he had and knew it to be in the vicinity of Peter's Mesa (west side), but it seems that he did not know where to go from there and when Ruth refused to be of further assistance, he was shot.

 

[markmar]

If what I remember is correct, Barkley allegedly told Gassler that Ruth did not go to Peter's Mesa of his own accord. He was forced to go there. Whoever was with him had recognized the laurel grove marked on the map that he had and knew it to be in the vicinity of Peter's Mesa (west side), but it seems that he did not know where to go from there and when Ruth refused to be of further assistance, he was shot.

A very detailed description of Ruth death told by Tex , like he was witnessed the event or like was told to him by the murderer . How otherwise he would knew these details ?
If Ruth was forced to go at western Peters Mesa , then he didn't refuse to give more details about the LDM , because he didn't know more about to say something . And then he was killed in vain .
The map that had Ruth with him ( the Peralta locator map ) , was a Ruth's wrong interpretation of that map which in his opinion represented the region west of Peters Mesa , with additions of canyons names and landmarks that he wrote on it . This region was searched by Ruth in his previous trips in the Superstitions , without the expected results . Why he would go to Willow spring in WBC if he would found what he was looking for in Peters Mesa ?
So , those who allegedly killed Ruth , met him somewhere around these three canyons mentioned by Sims in his book , and knowing he was searching for the LDM , they forced him to show them the maps he was carrying . Then they recognized the Peralta locator map which was the only they could understand because has notes written in English , and forced Ruth to go at the place depicted in that map . Also , the laurel grove would not been the only clue written on that map that would leads automaticaly to Peters Mesa , because laurel groves exist in another places too , like close to the junction of Dutchman's trail with EBC at the south end of Black Top Mesa .
If this occured by folks who knew Ruth and his activities in those mountains , then there maybe was a confusion made by Ruth because he was believing how the Peralta locator map was for the LDM and the Perfil mapa was for something else , like a gold cache .
In reality the second slide ( below ) in the Peralta locator map is a 2d illustration of the Perfil mapa .

 

[markmar]

Ohh, then I guess it's back to a google earth shadow of Grander Delusion's again.

I guess I don't see what you see at all.

good hunting. Babymick1

If you don't see something in my picture , then look at the Perfil mapa . The feathered arrow shows where to go to be able to see the profile icon . And that place is behind the S.CIMA . Is this a second level of the map or not ?

 

[azdave35]

A very detailed description of Ruth death told by Tex , like he was witnessed the event or like was told to him by the murderer . How otherwise he would knew these details ?
If Ruth was forced to go at western Peters Mesa , then he didn't refuse to give more details about the LDM , because he didn't know more about to say something . And then he was killed in vain .
The map that had Ruth with him ( the Peralta locator map ) , was a Ruth's wrong interpretation of that map which in his opinion represented the region west of Peters Mesa , with additions of canyons names and landmarks that he wrote on it . This region was searched by Ruth in his previous trips in the Superstitions , without the expected results . Why he would go to Willow spring in WBC if he would found what he was looking for in Peters Mesa ?
So , those who allegedly killed Ruth , met him somewhere around these three canyons mentioned by Sims in his book , and knowing he was searching for the LDM , they forced him to show them the maps he was carrying . Then they recognized the Peralta locator map which was the only they could understand because has notes written in English , and forced Ruth to go at the place depicted in that map . Also , the laurel grove would not been the only clue written on that map that would leads automaticaly to Peters Mesa , because laurel groves exist in another places too , like close to the junction of Dutchman's trail with EBC at the south end of Black Top Mesa .
If this occured by folks who knew Ruth and his activities in those mountains , then there maybe was a confusion made by Ruth because he was believing how the Peralta locator map was for the LDM and the Perfil mapa was for something else , like a gold cache .
In reality the second slide ( below ) in the Peralta locator map is a 2d illustration of the Perfil mapa .

marius...ruth wasnt killed for the two worthless maps he had on him when his body was found...if he was killed for those maps ..the killer would have taken them...he was killed for another map he had with him

 

[markmar]

marius...ruth wasnt killed for the two worthless maps he had on him when his body was found...if he was killed for those maps ..the killer would have taken them...he was killed for another map he had with him

Could been another map which I am not aware about . I don't believe any genuine Peralta-Gonzalez map is worthless . As I wrote , IMO they took a map which they could understand . Or... they made a larger copy of a map that was carrying Ruth , to don't give a motivation for Ruth's death if somebody knew what maps had used in his research .

 

[deducer]

Could been another map which I am not aware about . I don't believe any genuine Peralta-Gonzalez map is worthless . As I wrote , IMO they took a map which they could understand . Or... they made a larger copy of a map that was carrying Ruth , to don't give a motivation for Ruth's death if somebody knew what maps had Ruth with him .

There are several accounts that talk about a third and larger map that was taken from Ruth's body. This map is the one that has the laurel grove marked on it. It is referred to as "the old Spanish map" in the Ruth-Jones correspondences.