Dutchman's Caches

[markmar]

This is the perfil map area. It's not where you are talking about. Map is actually 3D. Got to bend it at the middle creek ravine. My question has anyone that already knows this been there? Not what I'm looking for , so no I haven't spent the time to.climb there myself tho. Even if this is one of the easiest to get to of all the maps of mines in th sups. Perfil map is Not of the Ldm.. In the giving mood today, for those that don't know of the area yet.

Hello Doc

In my picture above, I was mentioned only the "face" which is depicted on the Perfil mapa and not the entire map's landmarks/region.
Now, if you believe a treasure Spanish/Mexican map would show the shape of a peak different than what could be seen in the field, then you are way afar from the real deal.
You are right the Perfil mapa is a 3D map, but what you maybe don't know is the perfil mapa is a multidimensinal map, which has different scale/distance for the edges of the map and a different scale for the centre. So, you have to recognize first the image of the egdes and after to go closer to see the centre.
The Spanish/Mexicans map makers, if would draw a specific shape of a landmark, then you have to look for the exact shape in regards to the other landmarks depicted in the map, and nothing different like a spire or a sharp peak that would fit your area of interest. i believe also you know the Perfil mapa should be reversed/mirrored because the feathered arrow symbol that it has depicted on.
I post a crop of a real picture, to see the real S.Cima and beside a part of the landmarks depicted in the Perfil mapa. I reversed the Perfil mapa for better understanding. Enjoy

 

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[Idahodutch]

"Small valley" were not my words, but Waltz's when described the area of the mine in one of his clues. What you see in the picture as a ledge, to the left of the "face", is about two acres large, so you can estimate the dimensions of the labdmarks around the mine. Also when is raining, through that plain is running a little stream,BTW.

Good morning Markmar,
In order for me to embrace your theory, I would need to disregard both Holmes manuscript, and Bicknell’s 1895 article, because they actually do come together, at a place that match up. That place is not the same place as you have worked out.

In my opinion, you have found a place of interest, with previous activity, but not the site of the LDM. Sincerely,
Idahodutch.

 

[markmar]

Good morning Markmar,
In order for me to embrace your theory, I would need to disregard both Holmes manuscript, and Bicknell’s 1895 article, because they actually do come together, at a place that match up. That place is not the same place as you have worked out.

In my opinion, you have found a place of interest, with previous activity, but not the site of the LDM. Sincerely,
Idahodutch.

Actually I'm not explaining any theory, but with my pictures, I give you a chance to see how some things related to the LDM saga are looking in reality.
If you want to follow Bicknell's and Holmes route like did thousands people before you, it's not my problem. To me the only accurate clues which could lead to the LDM, are the German clues put in the right order, and a clue told by Waltz related to the drawing he made for Julia Thomas and Rhiney Petrash.

 

[Idahodutch]

Actually I'm not explaining any theory, but with my pictures, I give you a chance to see how some things related to the LDM saga are looking in reality.
If you want to follow Bicknell's and Holmes route like did thousands people before you, it's not my problem. To me the only accurate clues which could lead to the LDM, are the German clues put in the right order, and a clue told by Waltz related to the drawing he made for Julia Thomas and Rhiney Petrash.

Markmar,
Thanks for at least explaining the basis of your theory.
So the ?German clues? that need to be put in right order;
Which document(s) of German clues, are the ones that are the accurate ones?
Or said easier, which publication(s) of German clues are you using?

The clue told by Waltz, related to a drawing .... where or what document relates this ?telling of drawing clue?, from Waltz to Julia?

Sincerely,
Idahodutch

 

[Doc4261]

Hello Doc

In my picture above, I was mentioned only the "face" which is depicted on the Perfil mapa and not the entire map's landmarks/region.
Now, if you believe a treasure Spanish/Mexican map would show the shape of a peak different than what could be seen in the field, then you are way afar from the real deal.
You are right the Perfil mapa is a 3D map, but what you maybe don't know is the perfil mapa is a multidimensinal map, which has different scale/distance for the edges of the map and a different scale for the centre. So, you have to recognize first the image of the egdes and after to go closer to see the centre.
The Spanish/Mexicans map makers, if would draw a specific shape of a landmark, then you have to look for the exact shape in regards to the other landmarks depicted in the map, and nothing different like a spire or a sharp peak that would fit your area of interest. i believe also you know the Perfil mapa should be reversed/mirrored because the feathered arrow symbol that it has depicted on.
I post a crop of a real picture, to see the real S.Cima and beside a part of the landmarks depicted in the Perfil mapa. I reversed the Perfil mapa for better understanding. Enjoy

markmar,

We would have to agree to disagree on the perfil map. As I said I have no interest in the spot I posted. Just posting the real solve as it's pretty plain as day. No need for trying to make it fit the perfil map. To each their own solve. Was just something I found when I went on first recon trip to get a good look at the sups before I went deep in the mntns.

 

[somehiker]

Hello Doc4261, Interesting picture. Do you have another showing the area further to the left of the one you posted? Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

Hi Doc.....any more pictures ?

 

[markmar]

Markmar,
Thanks for at least explaining the basis of your theory.
So the ?German clues? that need to be put in right order;
Which document(s) of German clues, are the ones that are the accurate ones?
Or said easier, which publication(s) of German clues are you using?

The clue told by Waltz, related to a drawing .... where or what document relates this ?telling of drawing clue?, from Waltz to Julia?

Sincerely,
Idahodutch

Russ

The German clues were published in the Bible of Helen Corbin's book. The other Waltz's clue which is referring to a drawing, that drawing known as ' Waltz's doodle " or " the Gun sight view ", was published also in a Helen Corbin's book, if not the same.
The clue/route written in Bicknell's 1895 article, was not the full clue like it was told by Waltz, but he kept the last part hidden from public, for his own reasons. I found the complete clue many years ago in a site which now seems defuncted, because I was not able to find it again. The text on that site was written in such manner that someone couldn't copy the text but only do a copy screen image.
I have copied that clue by doing a print screen, and the last part of that clue looks like this:

 

[Idahodutch]

Russ

The German clues were published in the Bible of Helen Corbin's book. The other Waltz's clue which is referring to a drawing, that drawing known as ' Waltz's doodle " or " the Gun sight view ", was published also in a Helen Corbin's book, if not the same.
The clue/route written in Bicknell's 1895 article, was not the full clue like it was told by Waltz, but he kept the last part hidden from public, for his own reasons. I found the complete clue many years ago in a site which now seems defuncted, because I was not able to find it again. The text on that site was written in such manner that someone couldn't copy the text but only do a copy screen image.
I have copied that clue by doing a print screen, and the last part of that clue looks like this:

Markmar,
Thanks for explaining. So is your thinking, the map referred to in the script from the defunct site, is actually the doodle, or gun site sketch?

The other question has to do with that site where you found that script.
How was the script presented, that you felt it was authentic .... I got the impression, that you believe Julia told Bicknell about that last part, but that Bicknell left it out of the 1895 article, only to let it out, elsewhere?

 

[skyhawk1251]

Could this --



be this?



See "Analysis of the Peralta Map", by Richard A. Robinson

https://www.lost-dutchman.com/dutchman/peralta.htm

 

[Doc4261]

Hello Doc4261, Interesting picture. Do you have another showing the area further to the left of the one you posted? Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

I video all my treks in the sups. The pics were pulled from video. Like I said, miss stuff while I'm making time. So videos are the best to go through when I have the rest of the year to look at them and see anything that sticks out. Got it on video cuz the spire was neat, lil did I know it matched the map. Was when I knew nothing of the sups. This was of my first trip to the top of malapais as a recon trip to understand the layout of inner sups and find a view of the 5 on the h/p. When they say u get a view of everything, they weren't wrong. Allowed me to see just how vast the area is. Inadvertently figured 2 maps from that trip. Not the one I'm after. Always wanted to prove the stone maps were Jesuit , but, Still cool none the less. These extra finds on the way of my quest are just icing.

Best I can do.



Then the other map figured on that recon trip.. Interesting to say the least. Not what I'm looking for.


Would be fun to go back up there one day. Did find a place worth looking into. What looks to be a walled up something. Then rocks were stacked. Who knows if I'll ever get back there tho.



Went on that recon trip for the best view of the 5 I could on the h/p to figure where it was made from. Got me what I wanted. Will get ya going when u think of holmes story and where he was seen by old waltz. Also why holmes looked north. This pic won't get ya there. Gotta have the right location where the map was made.


Cough, cough. Beauty is what I'm looking for isn't in the wilderness area. Like I said it's my belief the ldm is alot closer that on thinks. Smiles

One thing I can't figure out is why waltz gave directions from the south to Julia. He musta really thought they couldn't find it from the north like holmes. If I come across the ldm it will be because I followed the h/p and it was on that map, not cuz of the 100+clues to atleast a half a dozen mines.

 

[markmar]

Markmar,
Thanks for explaining. So is your thinking, the map referred to in the script from the defunct site, is actually the doodle, or gun site sketch?

The other question has to do with that site where you found that script.
How was the script presented, that you felt it was authentic .... I got the impression, that you believe Julia told Bicknell about that last part, but that Bicknell left it out of the 1895 article, only to let it out, elsewhere?

What other map can be attached to Waltz's clue? I believe that drawing was the only one Waltz has made for Rhiney and Julia. Also that clue is verified. Is not a drawing made from the mine's site, but as a point of referrence in the trail to the LDM. IMHO, is the same view from the Perfil mapa.
In that site with the Waltz clues, were written only three clues. One with the Military trail, other with the clue that describes the site of the tunnel (LDM outcrop ) as the richest mine in the world and describes the LDM inclined shaft to be little up on the mountainside, and the third with the complete route that was descibed partially in the Bicknell's article. To me looked very authentic because fit with the region I have posted the picture of the real S.Cima.

 

[markmar]

Could this --

be this?

See "Analysis of the Peralta Map", by Richard A. Robinson

https://www.lost-dutchman.com/dutchman/peralta.htm

I have read this article few years ago. IMHO nothing in that page has to do with the real site of the Mapa del Desierto.
An important clue that people have to know about the Perfil mapa view, is like El Sombrero has a different shape in regards to the angle someone is looking at, the same principle should be applied to the S.Cima.
So, someone has to be at the right place to see what is depicted in the map, otherwise will see a different landmark which sometimes it's not even a peak.

 

[Idahodutch]

What other map can be attached to Waltz's clue? I believe that drawing was the only one Waltz has made for Rhiney and Julia. Also that clue is verified. Is not a drawing made from the mine's site, but as a point of referrence in the trail to the LDM. IMHO, is the same view from the Perfil mapa.
In that site with the Waltz clues, were written only three clues. One with the Military trail, other with the clue that describes the site of the tunnel (LDM outcrop ) as the richest mine in the world and describes the LDM inclined shaft to be little up on the mountainside, and the third with the complete route that was descibed partially in the Bicknell's article. To me looked very authentic because fit with the region I have posted the picture of the real S.Cima.

Which was first;
- Bicknell?s 1895 artical from Julia interviews or
- The clue you saw on the defunct site, that sounds like has Bicks summations, plus a little extra

I guess the question is - do you remember where that clue was to have originated?
For example, Bicks 1895, is to have originated with Waltz, via Julia, then told by Bicknell.

Unless I misunderstood, and Bicknell wrote both versions?

 

[skyhawk1251]

One thing I can't figure out is why waltz gave directions from the south to Julia. He musta really thought they couldn't find it from the north ... Doc4261

I'd like to think that Waltz was being kind to Julia, and told her the easiest route to travel, with the best probability of water sources along the way. The southern route might not be the shortest, or the fastest way to get to the mine, just the way that Waltz thought might be the safest. He was "bowing" to what he thought was her feminine weakness. Apparently, Julia had never been in the mountains before her search for the mine began, so she was unable to accurately match landmarks with the descriptions she was told, nor did she have a true sense of the distances involved. Her search was doomed from the start.

 

[Doc4261]

I'd like to think that Waltz was being kind to Julia, and told her the easiest route to travel, with the best probability of water sources along the way. The southern route might not be the shortest, or the fastest way to get to the mine, just the way that Waltz thought might be the safest. He was "bowing" to what he thought was her feminine weakness. Apparently, Julia had never been in the mountains before her search for the mine began, so she was unable to accurately match landmarks with the descriptions she was told, nor did she have a true sense of the distances involved. Her search was doomed from the start.

Long way to go from the south.. No doubt he wanted her to go from the north. Just too bad she didnt have a perfect pointing spot to start from. I woulda never gave directions from the south. Guess it's one thing Holmes had with following old waltz. Would be nice to know the last clues he had.

 

[Idahodutch]

Long way to go from the south.. No doubt he wanted her to go from the north. Just too bad she didnt have a perfect pointing spot to start from. I woulda never gave directions from the south. Guess it's one thing Holmes had with following old waltz. Would be nice to know the last clues he had.

Pure speculation on my part, but I think Waltz May have given Julia directions to get to the cache that was on top of the outcrop mine. For Holmes, I think Waltz May have given final instructions from the hidden camp .... not to the cache, but to the inclined shaft mine, up above.
A much harder endeavor to even get to. . . . Unless Waltz has given you the alternate route.

After much discussion, we?ve kind of come to conclusion, that access to the upper inclined shaft mine, is least difficult, if dropping into the area, from above. A trick in the trail?
There is a natural slide of sorts, made of rock, that you just slide down a few feet into the upper corner of ravine. From there, it?s almost solid brush, to where cannot see the ground to navigate.
So simple measurements would suffice.
Waltz probably told Holmes to bring a saw or a machete from the hidden camp

I would agree with Skyhawk, that Waltz just figured the southern route would be best for Julia. There was probably a last instruction for Julia as well, because the big rocks used to cover the outcrop mine, are big and heavy.
Maybe a secret access point, just moving a few smaller rocks, and bingo
Who knows. Need more time to investigate better.

 

[skyhawk1251]

Long way to go from the south. No doubt he wanted her to go from the north. Just too bad she didn't have a perfect pointing spot to start from. I woulda never gave directions from the south. Guess it's one thing Holmes had with following old waltz. Would be nice to know the last clues he had. -- Doc4261

The historical records I've read, if they can be given credence, indicate Waltz only gave Julia directions for a route approaching the mine from the south, and Bicknell's newspaper account, supposedly based on a face-to-face interview with Julia, makes no mention of a northern route, although we know that there is more than one way to get to the mine. Whatever Waltz told Julia, she seems to have been fixated on a southern route, and that's the way she went on her search. The fact that she attempted to go into the mountains with a horse-drawn wagon, and in the heat of summer, testifies that she couldn't handle herself in the outdoors.

Trying to make some logic out of the LDM legend brings many questions into my mind. Did Waltz give preference to a southern route for Julia to let her avoid a river crossing from the north, which would have been very dangerous during times of high water? Was a southern route simply safer and more convenient for Julia, considering where she lived in Phoenix? Was Julia given directions to the mine, as historical records seem to state, or was she really being directed to a cache site? In my mind, is the fact that Waltz claimed to have capped the mine shaft with ironwood logs, rocks, and dirt. So, I'm assuming that Julia's wagon was loaded with implements to uncover the shaft, along with other necessary supplies. Also, she might have thought a wagon to be necessary to haul out hundreds of pounds of rich, gold ore. She must have had grandiose visions of instant wealth in her head. But was she really prepared to uncap a mine and to do an extended stay for some hard-rock mining? I have my doubts about that. Maybe she was better prepared for a brief foray; a short stay to grab a cache and to get out fast.

We can be assured that there is some logic behind the LDM legend. Those people were mere mortals, and their minds worked basically the same as our minds, so we can "back-engineer" and make logical assumptions about what they did to achieve their goals. I have no doubt that the LDM exists, although it could have been found long ago and is now worked out. We can only attempt to separate the facts from the fiction.

 

[Idahodutch]

The historical records I've read, if they can be given credence, indicate Waltz only gave Julia directions for a route approaching the mine from the south, and Bicknell's newspaper account, supposedly based on a face-to-face interview with Julia, makes no mention of a northern route, although we know that there is more than one way to get to the mine. Whatever Waltz told Julia, she seems to have been fixated on a southern route, and that's the way she went on her search. The fact that she attempted to go into the mountains with a horse-drawn wagon, and in the heat of summer, testifies that she couldn't handle herself in the outdoors.

Trying to make some logic out of the LDM legend brings many questions into my mind. Did Waltz give preference to a southern route for Julia to let her avoid a river crossing from the north, which would have been very dangerous during times of high water? Was a southern route simply safer and more convenient for Julia, considering where she lived in Phoenix? Was Julia given directions to the mine, as historical records seem to state, or was she really being directed to a cache site? In my mind, is the fact that Waltz claimed to have capped the mine shaft with ironwood logs, rocks, and dirt. So, I'm assuming that Julia's wagon was loaded with implements to uncover the shaft, along with other necessary supplies. Also, she might have thought a wagon to be necessary to haul out hundreds of pounds of rich, gold ore. She must have had grandiose visions of instant wealth in her head. But was she really prepared to uncap a mine and to do an extended stay for some hard-rock mining? I have my doubts about that. Maybe she was better prepared for a brief foray; a short stay to grab a cache and to get out fast.

We can be assured that there is some logic behind the LDM legend. Those people were mere mortals, and their minds worked basically the same as our minds, so we can "back-engineer" and make logical assumptions about what they did to achieve their goals. I have no doubt that the LDM exists, although it could have been found long ago and is now worked out. We can only attempt to separate the facts from the fiction.

Good evening Skyhawk,
In different things out there to read, it seems Waltz had made 3 caches, 2 smaller ones nearby, and a large cache covered on top of the filled in/logged off outcrop mine, somehow.

So since Bicknell?s info was from Julia, it appears Waltz told Julia the distance between his hidden camp and that mine, was not more than 200? directly across the canyon.

And legend has it that Waltz had already retrieved the 2 smaller caches, that only leaves the large one, buried on top of the mine.

She only had to get there..... assuming she knew which rocks to give attention to.

 

[Idahodutch]

One important thing to remember ..... Waltz left the last, and largest cache, for an older version of himself.
He would have made it retrievable for an old man

 

[Doc4261]

One important thing to remember ..... Waltz left the last, and largest cache, for an older version of himself.
He would have made it retrievable for an old man

Some say the cache is in the mine. I don't think so.. Makes sense he put it in the cave with his tools as he said it was so well hidden. Why the emphasis to find the cave. He obviously thought the cave was good enough to hide his tools safely without losing them. Once they had the cache and the tools from the cave, they could then find the mine. If they couldn't find the mine atleast had the cache. Just my take. I've always believed the cave is the key some way or another. Is my cave "the cave" . Don't know till I go in. But entrance was def man made. Cant wait to see what's in the 2nd room.


There is a post on the other forum. That describes my cave to a T. Makes me wonder if said poster had been there as there, as no other place I've see info he had described anywhere else. Granted I wasn't looking for the ldm, but the mine behind the ear of the horse on the h/p. Stumbled on the cave by accident.


Said description from other forum.

Dearing then followed the trail heading east until he came to a cave that led him not to a canyon but what more aptly be called a crack in the earth. The geological setting of all of this is a volcanic flow of Dacite. Just as an aside what terrified Deering was not a canyon but the strangeness of such a geological phenomena. One could say the whole area is downright bizarre. In an odd way almost beautiful.

The significance of the cave is the water in it and what that water creates. The significance of the cave entrance is that it was never a cave entrance to begin with but an exit. That is why animals could not make their way in. The Peralta`s punched their way through this side of the cave to facilitate the transport of ore. Making it large enough for animals was never their intent.