DUTCHMAN ORE?

[Cubfan64]

AZhiker - got it, thanks . I knew what the first 2 photos were, and I knew of Julia's mine claim, just wasn't sure what all the tie-in's were supposed to be with your post. Never seen the other photo of the dandy gold ore either!

As to whether I know where the LDM is or whether the ore photo of yours is LDM ore, I honestly couldn't tell you. I doubt Julia's claim was the LDM unless Waltz grossly underestimated the value of it, otherwise I suspect Julia would have been a very rich lady. No idea whether your ore photo is from the LDM or not, all I know is it looks quite nice!

Thanks for the clarification

 

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[cactusjumper]

AZ Hiker,

Yes, it might be.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[393stroker]

Im wondering if the 3 triangles on the matchbox are just artistic flair or if they might have some underhanded meaning to them.

 

[Connecticut Sam]

I'd be surprised if many or any LDM aficionados are anxious to turn over rocks that may expose centipedes that want to bite them. Too little to gain, too much to lose.

Or big snakes that want to bite you when you sit down.

 

[Azhiker]

Cubfan64,

I don't know if the Montazuma mine claim Julia had was the LDM or not. That would be a long shot in my way of thinking. In one of the many dutchman publications, possibly in Sims Ely's book (?), it is written Julia and Rhiney went out to Waltz's ranch at Christmas time for a dinner and afterward they were all sitting outside of Waltz's house on chairs. Waltz began talking and pointed off in the distance and said, ..... " my mine is over there, in those Salt River mountains." Julia's mine was in the Salt River mountains mining district. ( !? )

There have been three mountain groups over the years in the Arizona territory known as the Salt River mountains. The military once called the Superstition mountains the Salt River mountains. There is a group of mountains today known as the Salt River mountains north of Globe and for a very brief time some people called what are today the South Mountains the Salt River mountains.

Ten years ago Julia's Montazuma mine was a hole in the ground with a fence around it and a sign saying it was scheduled to be filled in by the BLM. I don't know what it looks like today. The Julia Thomas mine is an interesting side note that adds more to the confusion than it does to answer any questions. Cactusjumpers ore may very well be LDM ore. Maybe one day it will be proven to be just that.

I dont think Waltz's ore was Vulture mine ore. It's possible but a slim possibility. Vulture ore was in dark rock and had a lot of vugs (impressions) to the vein, very distinctive looking ore. Waltz may have worked Vulture ore however. Wickenberg sold raw ore from the Vulture by the ton to anyone who had the money to buy it. The buyers would then haul the ore down to the Hassayampa river and process it. Waltz may very well have bought some of the Vulture ore for processing. Here is photo of gold from the Vulture mine.

 

[Terry Soloman]

Cubfan64,

I don't know if the Montazuma mine claim Julia had was the LDM or not. That would be a long shot in my way of thinking. In one of the many dutchman publications, possibly in Sims Ely's book (?), it is written Julia and Rhiney went out to Waltz's ranch at Christmas time for a dinner and afterward they were all sitting outside of Waltz's house on chairs. Waltz began talking and pointed off in the distance and said, ..... " my mine is over there, in those Salt River mountains." Julia's mine was in the Salt River mountains mining district. ( !? )

There have been three mountain groups over the years in the Arizona territory known as the Salt River mountains. The military once called the Superstition mountains the Salt River mountains. There is a group of mountains today known as the Salt River mountains north of Globe and for a very brief time some people called what are today the South Mountains the Salt River mountains.

Ten years ago Julia's Montazuma mine was a hole in the ground with a fence around it and a sign saying it was scheduled to be filled in by the BLM. I don't know what it looks like today. The Julia Thomas mine is an interesting side note that adds more to the confusion than it does to answer any questions. Cactusjumpers ore may very well be LDM ore. Maybe one day it will be proven to be just that.

I dont think Waltz's ore was Vulture mine ore. It's possible but a slim possibility. Vulture ore was in dark rock and had a lot of vugs (impressions) to the vein, very distinctive looking ore. Waltz may have worked Vulture ore however. Wickenberg sold raw ore from the Vulture by the ton to anyone who had the money to buy it. The buyers would then haul the ore down to the Hassayampa river and process it. Waltz may very well have bought some of the Vulture ore for processing. Here is photo of gold from the Vulture mine.

View attachment 698123

I have never seen ore like that come from the Old Vuture mine, but that doesn't mean it didn't. All of the Ore I've seen and handled looked more like this
Holabird-Kagin Americana

 

[sgtfda]

The Vulture ore was tested against the jewelry ore according to Dr Glover with a electron microscope. Did not match. He also said in his book Julia did not work her claim.

 

[Springfield]

The Vulture ore was tested against the jewelry ore according to Dr Glover with a electron microscope. Did not match. He also said in his book Julia did not work her claim.

Terry Solomon's previous post demonstrates a valid point that has been ignored by those citing the 'Glover examination' - not all ore from a single mine is chemically or mechanically the same. Post 65 shows an alleged Vulture sample, as does the link provided in post 66. Two different host rocks. Which is authentic, 65 or 66 or both?

Having worked in an underground gold mine myself, I can tell you that vein material from one portion of a mine (especially one with extensive, multi-vein workings) can vary considerably from that of another part of the mine. Glover's 'Vulture' sample may not have matched the 'Waltz sample', sure, but until we are familiar with the history of the Vulture Mine - mine reports, maps of the workings, geological maps, assays and samples from the various veins and stopes, etc., we can't make a global decision about the provenance of the Waltz sample related to the Vulture. A thorough researcher would try to obtain all the old Vulture mine reports he could locate to try to get an idea of the size of the mine - Bureau of Mine publications, period mining journal articles, etc.

The Vulture produced a helluva lot of gold for many years and as Solomon's link reminds us, a lot of it was highgraded during Waltz's era. Could Waltz been one of the thieves? One grab sample comparison does not remove the Vulture highgrading possibility from the table, IMO. Or any other big producers from the time period either, for that matter. You either want the truth at all costs or you want to foster the legend. Unfortunately, the 'highgrading truth', after so many years, likely can't be proven one way or the other. When it all boils down, we only have Waltz's alleged word for the source of his gold, and his reputation is checkered.

 

[Terry Soloman]

Terry Solomon's previous post demonstrates a valid point that has been ignored by those citing the 'Glover examination' - not all ore from a single mine is chemically or mechanically the same. Post 65 shows an alleged Vulture sample, as does the link provided in post 66. Two different host rocks. Which is authentic, 65 or 66 or both?

Having worked in an underground gold mine myself, I can tell you that vein material from one portion of a mine (especially one with extensive, multi-vein workings) can vary considerably from that of another part of the mine. Glover's 'Vulture' sample may not have matched the 'Waltz sample', sure, but until we are familiar with the history of the Vulture Mine - mine reports, maps of the workings, geological maps, assays and samples from the various veins and stopes, etc., we can't make a global decision about the provenance of the Waltz sample related to the Vulture. A thorough researcher would try to obtain all the old Vulture mine reports he could locate to try to get an idea of the size of the mine - Bureau of Mine publications, period mining journal articles, etc.

The Vulture produced a helluva lot of gold for many years and as Solomon's link reminds us, a lot of it was highgraded during Waltz's era. Could Waltz been one of the thieves? One grab sample comparison does not remove the Vulture highgrading possibility from the table, IMO. Or any other big producers from the time period either, for that matter. You either want the truth at all costs or you want to foster the legend. Unfortunately, the 'highgrading truth', after so many years, likely can't be proven one way or the other. When it all boils down, we only have Waltz's alleged word for the source of his gold, and his reputation is checkered.

This is the most intelligent post in this entire thread. Pulling my thumbs out of my ears, and putting them both way up for Springfield! And, let's not forget all of the ore from the Weaver and Bradshaw Mountains that Waltz had access to. For all we know, Waltz could have been part of the Stanton gang..

 

[sgtfda]

The Vulture sample was from the original surface vein.
Vulture ore has wulfenite, blende and jarosite in it. The jewelry gold does not.

A thought just occurred to me. I'm turning into a Dutch hunter. How in the hell did that happen.

 

[Terry Soloman]

...A thought just occurred to me. I'm turning into a Dutch hunter. How in the hell did that happen.

...

 

[sgtfda]

Terry. This is what happens when a frozen brain from the east spends 2 years in the desert. The brain defrosts and is then baked until well done
How many Dutch hunters were from the east sporting frozen then sun damaged brains. You can't include those from the west. There brains were baked during childhood. If they moved back east later the brains were then frozen.

 

[Cubfan64]

Terry Solomon's previous post demonstrates a valid point that has been ignored by those citing the 'Glover examination' - not all ore from a single mine is chemically or mechanically the same. Post 65 shows an alleged Vulture sample, as does the link provided in post 66. Two different host rocks. Which is authentic, 65 or 66 or both?

Having worked in an underground gold mine myself, I can tell you that vein material from one portion of a mine (especially one with extensive, multi-vein workings) can vary considerably from that of another part of the mine. Glover's 'Vulture' sample may not have matched the 'Waltz sample', sure, but until we are familiar with the history of the Vulture Mine - mine reports, maps of the workings, geological maps, assays and samples from the various veins and stopes, etc., we can't make a global decision about the provenance of the Waltz sample related to the Vulture. A thorough researcher would try to obtain all the old Vulture mine reports he could locate to try to get an idea of the size of the mine - Bureau of Mine publications, period mining journal articles, etc.

The Vulture produced a helluva lot of gold for many years and as Solomon's link reminds us, a lot of it was highgraded during Waltz's era. Could Waltz been one of the thieves? One grab sample comparison does not remove the Vulture highgrading possibility from the table, IMO. Or any other big producers from the time period either, for that matter. You either want the truth at all costs or you want to foster the legend. Unfortunately, the 'highgrading truth', after so many years, likely can't be proven one way or the other. When it all boils down, we only have Waltz's alleged word for the source of his gold, and his reputation is checkered.

Not having any background in geology at all, but being a scientist by nature I tried that argument a number of times when I first got interested in the LDM 7-8 years ago. I was told that gold ore from a mine has a "fingerprint" so to speak and can be identified by that geological and chemical fingerprint.

Honestly I've never been sold on that idea - it just doesn't make common sense to me (again, I'm not a geologist so I can't really argue it). It seems as though at different depths and in different locations of a vein, different elements could preciptate or depost along with the gold - not to mention different forms of rock.

I'm glad to see I may still be correct with my assumption - and if that's the case, ANY attempt to validate an ore sample is going to be questionable at best, and certainly would still cause questions. Basically, what I'm saying is that if this is the case, the statement that the "Only way to prove you've found the LDM is by comparison of the gold ore" is still not going to convince most people.

I'd really like to hear a few mining experts discuss the issue of whether you can identify an unknown ore sample based on characterists and comparisons with known ore samples and validate what mine it came from.

 

[Azhiker]

You have to be aware, the Kagin Americana is an outfit from Reno that sells ore at a huge profit. They do that by linking the ore they are selling to historic mines and events. A few years ago they were selling dutchman gold ore. If you want ore from a certain mine anywhere in the world, just tell them what mine it is and they will get it for you. It will look exactly like ore they sold you previously from a different mine. Always beware of anyone selling gold for huge profits.

There is no ore left from the Vulture that represents the original discovery outside the U of Arizona's mineral collection. That is where the photo of the dark rock with gold came from. Even the people who own the Vulture today do not have a sample of the original ore and there is no gold other than minor sulfides being taken from the Vulture today.

 

[sgtfda]

Dr Glover said the mine geologist showed them the area of the original vein and a sample was located. He also said Waltz was more interested in his cache of ore than a mine. So who knows where it came from. The Superstitions seem a strange hard to reach place to hide something not found there.

 

[Azhiker]

sgtfda,

The Vulture lode has been mined, and remined, and remined again several times, over and over. The stopes were retreat mined many years ago collapsing and mining the pillars that were the only thing holding the tunnels and shafts in place. If there was a dimes worth of gold left in the original deposit it was mined out long ago. Every inch of that ground was scoured several times over and even some of the buildings made of rock were torn down and mined.

I'm not saying someone is pulling your leg, anything is possible, but if you think you can go to the original deposit site today and find original Vulture gold from Henry Wickenberg's location, your chances are one in a hundred million. Now there are places near the Vulture where you can find gold sulfides (seperate deposits) but that is not the original deposit Wickenberg located back in 1863 and Waltz would have ever seen.

 

[cactusjumper]

What is the positive aspect of assuming that Waltz had no mine, and high graded the ore he had in his possession when he died?

There is NO documentation that Waltz had ever worked at the Vulture.......despite the many rumors over the years. Are those rumors enough to prove that he had no mine? For some, yes. Others may demand something more substantial than a rumor.

As Paul has mentioned, what you find in your search is well worth the journey.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[sgtfda]

Dr Glovers is a friend and his word is good enough for me. If he said a sample was found and tested then a sample was found and tested.

 

[Springfield]

What is the positive aspect of assuming that Waltz had no mine, and high graded the ore he had in his possession when he died?

There is NO documentation that Waltz had ever worked at the Vulture.......despite the many rumors over the years. Are those rumors enough to prove that he had no mine? For some, yes. Others may demand something more substantial than a rumor.

As Paul has mentioned, what you find in your search is well worth the journey.

Good luck,

Joe

The task isn't to prove Waltz had no mine, but to prove he did. Everything associated with this legend is hearsay, and the acceptance of hearsay is directly proportional to the seeker's wiilingness to buy testimony on faith. There are simply too many degrees of separation from Waltz to determine where his ore came from. Applying Occam's razor (the simplest option is probably the best) says to me that he obtained the ore by some devious act and lied about a mine in the Superstitions to cover his crime. Sure, lots of contemporary reports from those who 'knew Waltz' are cornerstones of the lore, but there's no reason to believe Waltz told them the 'truth' either - otherwise the 'mine' wouldn't be 'lost'.

 

[Cubfan64]

I spoke to someone at the Rendezvous who told me a short story that sort of applies here as well. I don't recall the specifics, but the gist of it is that this older woman was telling my friend how she had known Waltz when she was a little girl (she told him this story years ago). She distinctly remembered him putting her up on his shoulders and carrying her around. She was adamant that it was Jacob Waltz - the Lost Dutchman.

It turns out she was born sometime in the 1910-1920 time period. Waltz died in 1891.

This is one of the problems faced when trying to convince me that Waltz worked in the Vulture Mine in Wickenberg. Show me documentation (payroll records, etc...) to prove that point rather than just more hearsay and I would certainly put more consideration into him having nothing more than a few caches of stolen ore. As it is, I'm not convinced Waltz had a mine either - he had a source of gold, but beyond that, everything else really is hearsay.

I do believe (I know, but can't provide evidence so I'll say I believe so as to avoid arguments) that there are sources of gold in the Superstitions, and not just trace amounts, but decent placer as well as gold veins in rock. Whether there is an ultimate "bonanza" deposit somewhere out there, who knows. Odds are, if there is and someone finds it, none of us will ever know.