🥇 BANNER Does Coral beep? yes, when its full of coins!!!

[BVI Hunter]

Could'nt work out why this lump of coral (in 2 ft of water) at the beach kept "hitting"?

brought it home and it started to fall apart in my bag - WOW!!!

just need to identify them and work out how to save / clean them

any ideas

thanks!!

 

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[Jason in Enid]

yes, after it became apparent there was a debris "field" I bought a waterproof GPS to log all the finds and I plot them on Google Earth.

Here's a tip for that too! Because consumer GPS can drift around from day to day, you can have you points somewhere in a 20' circle. To combat this, find a FIXED point that will never move at your site. Each day you go out to hunt, mark that point first. When you do your overlay you can see the deviation and adjust for that day.

Although this is more complicated than just downloading the points off the GPS, it is more accurate. It's up to you to decided if you want (or need) that much higher accuracy.

 

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[Jason in Enid]

I look at the size of the ocean, and think "must I really cover every sq inch of that with a machine with a coil the size of a dinner plate?"

daunting to say the least!!!

If you think that's bad, consider dredging! Trying to move an entire river of gravel through a 4 inch nozzle takes patience.

 

[BVI Hunter]

I'm only working shallow water for now but the next time I go out I'm going to make some simple markers using lead, fishing line, and small balloons as a reference point

I find the sun / uv breaks down balloons quite quickly,
I have used fishing floats and also old travel size shampoo like bottles

 

[MiamiFox]

I find the sun / uv breaks down balloons quite quickly,
I have used fishing floats and also old travel size shampoo like bottles

In your case balloons wouldn't be a good idea. The GPS idea sounds good for your situation.

I would only use the balloons for that day to help keep track of where I am and then take them home when I leave.

 

[huntsman53]

Captain... Congrats on the latest finds and they are good ones! As I suspected, the ship was apparently armed to the teeth and although I may be wrong, I truly believe that the ship was a lot more than a mere Pirate ship. I even doubt that it was one of the smaller Spanish Galleons or other ship, carrying an insignificant cargo. To be armed that heavily with such a variety of sizes of cannon shot and even rifle and/or musket shot, I would say that the ship was carrying a very valuable cargo or very precious and valuable items. I just hope that I am right! Could you post a picture of the all of the shot again and add something into the pic for size reference or measure each size shot and post the dimensions?

Brad, Jordan, Jordan's girlfriend and myself will meet Wednesday morning, then travel to the site where the underground stream that is flowing through an eroding volcanic pipe and flows into the creek that I Gold prospect on. Hopefully, we will get some or all of the boulders that are clogging the underground stream, removed and see what comes flowing out. I am all stoked up for the trip and hope that a lot of Gold, Silver, other heavy metals and precious Gems come spilling out from the underground stream. If so, maybe we will sail down soon on my' new Super Yacht to meet you and drink some Ron Metusalem Rum (oh hell, a lot of rum) together.


Frank

 

[BVI Hunter]

Captain... Congrats on the latest finds and they are good ones! As I suspected, the ship was apparently armed to the teeth and although I may be wrong, I truly believe that the ship was a lot more than a mere Pirate ship. I even doubt that it was one of the smaller Spanish Galleons or other ship, carrying an insignificant cargo. To be armed that heavily with such a variety of sizes of cannon shot and even rifle and/or musket shot, I would say that the ship was carrying a very valuable cargo or very precious and valuable items. I just hope that I am right! Could you post a picture of the all of the shot again and add something into the pic for size reference or measure each size shot and post the dimensions?

Brad, Jordan, Jordan's girlfriend and myself will meet Wednesday morning, then travel to the site where the underground stream that is flowing through an eroding volcanic pipe and flows into the creek that I Gold prospect on. Hopefully, we will get some or all of the boulders that are clogging the underground stream, removed and see what comes flowing out. I am all stoked up for the trip and hope that a lot of Gold, Silver, other heavy metals and precious Gems come spilling out from the underground stream. If so, maybe we will sail down soon on my' new Super Yacht to meet you and drink some Ron Metusalem Rum (oh hell, a lot of rum) together.


Frank

pic with dimensions to follow and its a date!!

good luck with your quest!!

 

[SADS 669]

...

 

[WilliamH]

I gotta say, I don't think I could have enough restraint to not just digging to find the loot. But BVI is doin it right. It's all loot. Digging it all will show a beautiful history of who it was and what they did. All I can say is I can't wait to see the rest of the story a few little pieces at a time. Good luck! Wh

 

[BVI Hunter]

View attachment 852865

1- 4 inch
2- 3 inch
3- 2 1/2 inch
4- 2 inch
5- cone shape projectiles - not yet identified?
6- just under 1 inch
7- 3/4 inch
8- 5/8 inch (lead)
9- just over 1 inch
10- 3/4 inch
11- 5/8 inch
12- 3/8 inch
13-1 1/2 inch


Not measures exactly, nor weighed.

 

[huntsman53]

View attachment 852865

1- 4 inch
2- 3 inch
3- 2 1/2 inch
4- 2 inch
5- cone shape projectiles - not yet identified?
6- just under 1 inch
7- 3/4 inch
8- 5/8 inch (lead)
9- just over 1 inch
10- 3/4 inch
11- 5/8 inch
12- 3/8 inch
13-1 1/2 inch


Not measures exactly, nor weighed.

Captain,

Thanks for posting the measurements! I think we need to get member "TheCannonballGuy" to check out the variety of shot and gove his opinion! I believe that you have shot from at least 5 or 6 different sized cannons but possibly more. It is doubtful that a ship would have any type of rifle or blunderbuss type musket that could shot anything above 3/4's of an inch (i.e. .75 caliber) but member TheCannonballGuy should know as he is an expert on these things. Unless as stated by Kevin, that the ship may have been carrying ammunitions, it was heavily armed for bear! I believe and am hoping for the latter, since this will mean that it was carrying a very significant cargo and hopefully that significant cargo was not a person or persons! I will send member TheCannoballGuy a PM and ask him to check the shot out and give his opinion.

Take care and as always, be safe!

Oh, I almost forgot about the cone shaped leads! I may be wrong but I believe that these were cone shaped sabot type cannon shot to either be loaded by themselves or loaded in front of a round shot (i.e. to come out first) for maximum penetration of a hull or some type of armored plating. I believe that member TheCannonballGuy will confirm or dispell this belief!


Frank

 

[BVI Hunter]

Captain,

Thanks for posting the measurements! I think we need to get member "TheCannonballGuy" to check out the variety of shot and gove his opinion! I believe that you have shot from at least 5 or 6 different sized cannons but possibly more. It is doubtful that a ship would have any type of rifle or blunderbuss type musket that could shot anything above 3/4's of an inch (i.e. .75 caliber) but member TheCannonballGuy should know as he is an expert on these things. Unless as stated by Kevin, that the ship may have been carrying ammunitions, it was heavily armed for bear! I believe and am hoping for the latter, since this will mean that it was carrying a very significant cargo and hopefully that significant cargo was not a person or persons! I will send member TheCannoballGuy a PM and ask him to check the shot out and give his opinion.

Take care and as always, be safe!

Oh, I almost forgot about the cone shaped leads! I may be wrong but I believe that these were cone shaped sabot type cannon shot to either be loaded by themselves or loaded in front of a round shot (i.e. to come out first) for maximum penetration of a hull or some type of armored plating. I believe that member TheCannonballGuy will confirm or dispell this belief!


Frank

many thanks!!!

lets hope the CBG can put some further info to all this!!

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Huntsman53 sent me a PM asking for my assistance in identifying the firearms projectiles (cannonballs and musketballs, grapeshot balls).

I've read a few parts of this 700-posts discussion in the past several months, but have not kept up with it recently. I now see that BVI Hunter has posted photos of the "cleaned" balls with APPROXIMATE (not highly-precise) measurements since the last time I looked. Knowing the nationality of the ship is crucial to correctly identifying the balls.

Also, unfortunately, centuries of submergence in saltwater tends (usually, but not absolutely always) to partially change the weight and shape of iron balls, which makes the super-accurate measuring and weighing of the iron cannonballs (needed for correctly identifying them) very difficult if not impossible.

My primary area of IN-DEPTH study has been artillery projectiles used in North America from the mid-1750s to the latter-1800s. I only have "some" familiarity with projectiles from earlier times and other locations. In particular, because BVI Hunter's shipwreck produced Spanish coins, I must mention that I am only partially familiar with Spanish Colonial artillery projectiles, because very-very few of those have been excavated in North America.

That being said, I'll help BVI Hunter as far as my knowledge-base goes.

Forgive me, but I don't have the time to meticulously read through all 700+ posts to find the information I need. So, I'll ask BVI Hunter to provide answers to three basic questions:
1- The lastest coin-date I've seen mentioned was 1729. Have any later dates turned up?
2- Are any of the coins non-Spanish?
3- Have you found anything which tells the ship's nationality with certainty? (The Spanish coins don't do that, because nearly EVERYBODY in the Caribbean used Spanish silver coins.)

Meanwhile, until those questions are answered, here is some basic Artillery info which is relevant to identifying the iron balls.

Prior to approximately the 1830s, the projectiles for all firearms (cannons, muskets, pistols) was a spherical ball or a group of balls -- a cannonball, grapeshot ball, musketball, buckshot. "Bullet-shaped"projectiles did not exist until "about" the early-1800s.

Prior to the mid-1700s, cannons were mostly identified by a name, such as Culverin and Demi-Culverin, etc, etc. Afterward, cannons were instead named with the weight of the Solid-Shot (not hollow explosive) projectile they fired... such as, a 1-pounder cannon and a 6-pounder cannon. Also, usually, the "function" of the cannon was included in the name... such as 3-pounder Gun, a 12-pounder Howitzer, and an 8-inch Mortar.

We scholars of Historical Artillery identify ball-shaped projectiles by their precisely-measured diameter. If an excavated ball's ORIGINAL diameter has been reduced by corrosion, correct identification is extremely difficult and may be impossible.

Some examples of Colonial Era cannons and ball-sizes:
A 1-pounder caliber cannon's bore-diameter was approximately 2.0-inches and its cannonball's diameter was 1.90 to 1.95-inches.
A 4-pounder caliber cannon's bore-diameter was approximately 3.25-inches and its cannonball's diameter was about 3.12 to 3.15-inches.
A 9-pounder caliber cannon's bore-diameter was 4.2-inches and its cannonball's diameter was 4.0 to 4.1-inches.

The problem with identiying cannonballs from a Colonial Era unknown-nationality shipwreck is that the different European nations tended to have different cannon-caliber systems AND different weight-systems. For example, the French "pound" weight was around 10% heavier than the British "pound" weight (16 ounces Avoirdupois). So, a French 8-pounder caliber cannonball weighed almost exactly the same as British 9-pounder caliber cannonball.

Also, in the Colonial Era, the Spanish artillery calibers were mostly different from the British, French, Danish, and Netherlands (Dutch) calibers. So, BVI Hunter's 4-inch iron ball could be either a French 8-pounder, a British 9-pounder, or a Spanish, Danish, or Dutch cannonball. For example, Denmark and the Netherlands owned several Caribbean islands in the Colonial Era, so of course their Navy ships were present there. (The "Netherlands Antilles" still exist today, as self-governed Dutch dependencies.)

Another example:
In the Colonial era, some countries had a 2-Pounder caliber cannon, and other countries didn't. A 2-Pounder cannon's bore-diameter was about 2.6-inches, and its cannonball-diameter was about 2.40 to 2.5-inches.

Iron artillery balls from the 1700s which are smaller than a 1-pounder cannon's 1.9-inches cannonball are most probably balls from Quilted Grapeshot ammunition... which was a group of iron balls or lead balls contained in a canvas bag with a disc of wood or iron at the bottom.

Huntsman53 is right, the lead balls from your shipwreck which are larger than about .75-inch are not musketballs or pistolballs. They are Quilted Grapeshot balls, which can be either iron or lead.

About the .75-inch-or-less lead balls: If they are PERFECTLY SPHERICAL, they are most probably musketballs or pistolballs. Note, I emphasized "perfectly spherical" because musketballs and pistolballs HAD to be perfect spheres (not out-of-round/lumpy) to prevent the ball from jamming in the gunbarrel during loading or firing. Also note, Quilted Grapeshot balls did not have to be perfectly spherical.

Since at the present time I do not know the ship's nationality, and the measurements you provided in your list of balls from the shipwreck are only "approximate," all I can do at the moment is give you answers based on "approximate" matchup with the European cannonball sizes I know of.
approximate 4" ball = British 9-Pounder or French 8-Pounder cannonball(or a Spanish equivalent of those cannons)
approximate 3" ball = nearest match is a 4-Pounder cannonball
approximate 2.5" ball = 2-Pounder cannonball OR large-caliber Quilted Grapeshot ball
approximate 2" ball = 1-Pounder cannonball OR large-caliber Quilted Grapeshot ball
balls smaller than 1.9-inches but larger than 0.8-inch = small-caliber Quilted Grapeshot balls
balls smaller than 0.8-inch = most likely musketballs and pistolballs but COULD be small-caliber Quilted Grapeshot balls

At this point, I do not think this is the wreck of a "major" warship, because SO FAR no cannonballs from it are larger than 4"-diameter. Major warships of that era had much larger calibers of cannons... such as 24-pounder (5.82"-caliber), 32-Pounder (6.4"-caliber), and even some 42-Pounder (7"-caliber) cannons. You're not going to be able to put much of a hole in a Man-Of-War's hull with a 9-pound cannonball.

A closing sidenote:
The problem with consulting Museum Archeologists (and even Colonial Era shipwreck archeologists) is that almost none of them are artillery-projectile SPECIALISTS. I respect them enormously for being excellent at correctly identifying small pieces of crockery and smoking-pipes and earwax-removal tools. But if you hand them an iron ball, they rarely have the "deep knowledge" of Artillery to be able to CORRECTLY identify the ball. At best, they tend to make partially-educated guesses about projectile balls. You're going to need a specialist in Colonial Era artillery projectiles (and musketballs/pistolballs) to super-precisely measure your shipwreck balls and correctly ID them. Hopefully there is at least one such person available to you in the BVI.

 

[favored papa]

lots of info there thanks CBG

 

[huntsman53]

lots of info there thanks CBG

X2! Yes, thanks! It was a very excellent education lesson for me and probably quite a few others here on TNnet!

Alright BVI, it is time to get back out there and find some 24 pounder and 32 pounder cannon shot. Maybe you will happen upon a 42 pounder or simlar sized cannon shot as well. However, you might have to deploy one of those air-lift bags if you have gotten them yet as I don't believe you could get any of those to the surface even if you stuff them in your' undershorts!


Frank

 

[vor]

BVI
Was there any discernible pattern to the shot scatter or were the different sizes found randomly mixed?

 

[BVI Hunter]

BVI
Was there any discernible pattern to the shot scatter or were the different sizes found randomly mixed?

there has been "general areas" but not as exact as "all canon ball here" and musket shot there" but I suppose things move around to a certain extent over time?

Although when I find one size, there are others same size nearby, I have not found a 4 inch next to 3/4 inch??

what's your theory?


All coins found in one general area so far though.

 

[BVI Hunter]

Thanks Canon Ball Guy!!!

absulutly superb answer / detail info!!!

coins are all roughly that date, no real surprises.

I have been speaking with someone here "in the know" but is reluctant to get involved yet in an official capacity.

Looks like I need to find me a couple of big balls!!!!

thanks so much again!!

you ever thought of writing a book!

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

BVI Hunter wrote:
> You ever thought of writing a book?

I already did... twice, if the vastly expanded 2nd Edition of it (552 pages) can be counted as a second book. Its title is "Field Artillery Projectiles of the American Civil War." It is a photographic encyclopedia showing (and explaining) hundreds of army and navy artillery projectiles made by the US, the Confederate States, and Britain which were used in America from the 1700s through 1865.

Unfortunately, my co-author passed away and the book cannot be reprinted... so, it is only available from used-book sellers who charge outrageously expensive prices for it on Ebay and at used-book stores.

You didn't answer two of my three questions:
As far as you can tell, are all of the coins in the stack Spanish coins?
Have you found anything from the shipwreck (besides the coin-stack) which tells the ship's nationality?

 

[screwynewy]

All coins found in one general area so far though.

Would love to know how many coins you have found to date if you are at liberty to say.

 

[BVI Hunter]

BVI Hunter wrote:
> You ever thought of writing a book?

I already did... twice, if the vastly expanded 2nd Edition of it (552 pages) can be counted as a second book. Its title is "Field Artillery Projectiles of the American Civil War." It is a photographic encyclopedia showing (and explaining) hundreds of army and navy artillery projectiles made by the US, the Confederate States, and Britain which were used in America from the 1700s through 1865.

Unfortunately, my co-author passed away and the book cannot be reprinted... so, it is only available from used-book sellers who charge outrageously expensive prices for it on Ebay and at used-book stores.

You didn't answer two of my three questions:
As far as you can tell, are all of the coins in the stack Spanish coins?
Have you found anything from the shipwreck (besides the coin-stack) which tells the ship's nationality?

Sorry - yes, all Spanish as far as I can tell?
no, nothing definitive to identify the nationality!