Doc Thorne gold...Is it an easier legend than the LDM

[Rando Wendt]

There is no mine to be found with Lost Dutchman. A cave. Small opening faces the setting sun. Vast interior. Scrawled just above eye level before kneeling to exit is "el gato 47". Apache trail visible. Shards of broken red clay pot. Trick in the trail is vertical. Stumbled upon around 1995. Much much guano. Vertical stacks of flat stones inside. Many bats heard high above, extremely high. Rattlesnakes between the tricks. Massacre site not too far. Tools with CG mark found not too far opposite direction of massacre. Handles rotted long ago.

 

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[dredgernaut]

who found this cave, are there any photos, or would you care to share rough location. thanks in advance

 

[Doc4261]

Wendt, Wouldn't be too sure of that. Pic of the covered mine sunk and the rock house. Make ya rethink that. I'll never open it. So it will sit till the next one to.find it. There was some ore still on the ground can see it in last pic.

 

[markmar]

What Dr Thorne never saw or imagined, was the fact that while he was at the gold outcrop, he was sitting above the horse head landmark. This landmark it's a critical clue if someone is looking for that gold outcrop, actual LDM. Also this clue was depicted in Julia's map and was told by Herman Petrasch to Ted Cox.
This landmark it's nothing else than the Cobollo de Santa Fe, depicted in the H/P stone map, and its shape and the cross carved close by on the mountain, validade this.

 

[Doc4261]

What Dr Thorne never saw or imagined, was the fact that while he was at the gold outcrop, he was sitting above the horse head landmark. This landmark it's a critical clue if someone is looking for that gold outcrop, actual LDM. Also this clue was depicted in Julia's map and was told by Herman Petrasch to Ted Cox.
This landmark it's nothing else than the Cobollo de Santa Fe, depicted in the H/P stone map, and its shape and the cross carved close by on the mountain, validade this.

Marius, love most your thoughts. But for me your h/p solve is off. I won't prove it. There is only one h/p solve. One day I'd like to show u my cards. Won't till I know u don't go in anymore. Those that have looked and can't anymore deserve the truth. It's too bad many long dutch hunters have gone recently. I have my regrets on not giving them a ah-ha moment but my research isn't done. Got 13 days in them mntns coming to tie all loose ends and figure out what clues were skewed. One last thought for all , one on the other forum might of been there. He claimed to be given the info as holder of knowledge. I can say I'm a believer from what I've seen. No way he could of been so accurate without being there. The info he had isn't in any story. Hope others take this as a clue. I won't give it all up freely. U gotta still figure it out yourself. If it gets ya out in them majestic mntns for just a day. It's the most beautiful and humbling place Ive ever set my feet on. Ps don't look just for one, the ldm. There is plenty more to the story to appreciate it all.

 

[Doc4261]

Jim,
Of the different versions that I have read or heard, this sounds like maybe a little spice, but not much, and perhaps was on part of Dr. Thorne.
I wonder if that was extent of interview? My first thoughts were what else was talked about or elaborated about. Maybe that is all there is to the story....

Those were my first thoughts, but you sound like you have issue with location?
He really did not say where except south of Mogollon Rim, and maybe near the Salt, and some very red hills ... but that all sounded vague. If he knew where he was, I think he would have found his way back.... but maybe not.

Not tons of traffic lately, if you feel like expounding some, i would read it
Russ

It's south of the salt and not in the wilderness. There was a show that showed a mineralized area by where I believe it is. Had Mr. Tuttle in it. Give a general area. The sierra Anchas has a significant meaning to a map by the Jesuits. Highest point on the way to NM. Let's leave it at this, why is Aztec peak named what it is...Also why no one can deny the Jesuits were above the Salt.

 

[Doc4261]

When u find this mine. U can see what they were following. Your in the area of the lost Thorne mine. And a pic of the ore crushed.

Since. Im in the giving mood bout to call it a night. Find this spot. Guarantee this place is fire. Hella quartz dike system. In the damnest place. Can see the trail run across the top of the pic. So it's doable if ya got the stamina.

 

[skyhawk1251]

"What Dr. Thorne never saw or imagined, was the fact that while he was at the gold outcrop, he was sitting above the horse head landmark. This landmark is a critical clue if someone is looking for that gold outcrop, actually the LDM. Also, this clue was depicted in Julia's map and was told by Herman Petrasch to Ted Cox. This landmark is nothing else than the Cobollo de Santa Fe, depicted in the H/P stone map, and its shape and the cross carved close by on the mountain validate this." -- markmar

Very interesting photo. I see the cross, and what looks like a rock structure, below and to the right.

 

[crashbandicoot]

The Lost Dutchman Mine has had many false experts, and clues...Is the simple story of Doc Thorne easier? Fewer stories mean more truth. The story of Doc Thorne is easier to follow and has less maps. So maybe if we could find historical evidence of this we could all be closer to an answer. We should also look into the lost Dragoon pistols. There has only been one story on those lost Dragoon pistols...and I am looking for historical evidence...If we cannot find the Lost Dutchman Gold mine, maybe with military records, we can find those lost crate of pistols...Lets find them

Welcome to Tnet from Lower Arkansas.Good luck on your quest,may you find it.

 

[markmar]

Very interesting photo. I see the cross, and what looks like a rock structure, below and to the right.

At the Horse site it's the Neverland, so to speak. There the fantastic joins the reality and the legend becomes truth. Very few people have had the privilege to enter that magic land, and very few have had the ability to recognize it. The most of the privileged people never left the land again, many because of the greed and others because of the rituals or accidents caused by mysterious phenomena.
That place doesn't want to be find, and at this time you have the privilege to see it only through my photos. I doubt someone else could find it under normal circumstances, but who knows, maybe one day someone else will hear the calling and will be able to see trough the magic curtain.

 

[skyhawk1251]

"At the Horse Site it's the Neverland, so to speak. There the fantastic joins reality and the legend becomes truth. Very few people have had the privilege to enter that magic land, and very few have had the ability to recognize it. Most of the privileged people never left that land, many because of greed and others because of rituals or accidents caused by mysterious phenomena. That place doesn't want to be found, and at this time you have the privilege to see it only through my photos. I doubt if someone else could find it under normal circumstances, but who knows, maybe one day someone else will hear the calling and will be able to see through the magic curtain." -- markmar

Yes, we are truly privileged to see "that magic land" through your photos, markmar. I doubt if anyone can match your knowledge and insight "to see through the magic curtain." Please honor us by sharing more photos of that place where "the fantastic joins reality."

 

[Doc4261]

At the Horse site it's the Neverland, so to speak. There the fantastic joins the reality and the legend becomes truth. Very few people have had the privilege to enter that magic land, and very few have had the ability to recognize it. The most of the privileged people never left the land again, many because of the greed and others because of the rituals or accidents caused by mysterious phenomena.
That place doesn't want to be find, and at this time you have the privilege to see it only through my photos. I doubt someone else could find it under normal circumstances, but who knows, maybe one day someone will hear the calling and will be able to see trough the magic curtain.

that pic would be def harder to find, just off top of my thoughts, Squaw valley or Bluff springs mntn. That pic is def an older GE pic. Could be off though.

 

[Doc4261]

that pic would be def harder to find, just off top of my thoughts, Squaw valley or Bluff springs mntn. That pic is def an older GE pic. Could be off though.

Also markmar, that cross isn't really there. Can see in the pic that the cross was caused by pixilation.

 

[markmar]

Also markmar, that cross isn't really there. Can see in the pic that the cross was caused by pixilation.

Like I wrote, all the scene isn't really there.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Here's the original Doc Thorne gold story by Spring, that Greg referred to above.

View attachment 1929775

Life's been getting in the way of my participating on this forum. As most of you will recall, I'd posted the above some time ago (page 2 of this thread), and there was some discussion on how many thought John Spring's version of the Doc Thorne story was more believable than the others. I share that view, that it sounds more believable than the others.

I've done considerable research on the Doc Thorne story, and in the course of that have encountered incontrovertible proof that the story as it's been handed down, just can't be true. I'll post most of that evidence as time allows. I'll say up front, that I believe the core of the story is most likely true...that Doc Thorne saw what he believed was a rich deposit of gold somewhere to the east of Ft. McDowell...and thus, I believe it's worth investigating the story...but some level of fact must be discerned from the stories before anyone has any hope of finding it...assuming there's any detectable gold left on the surface, at this late date.

Back to John Spring and his article. Spring wrote many such articles for a veteran's newspaper, and I believe he knew most of what he was writing was campfire BS. Most of the old-time AZ storytellers, of which Spring was one, did this all the time. His articles were pure entertainment, a lot of truth to them, but yarns nonetheless. He was trying to entertain folks, and provide fodder for newspapers and magazines so they could sell papers and increase their advertising revenue.

Was Spring telling the truth about meeting Doc Thorne in Sonora, and that's how he came by the story? No, he wasn't telling the truth about that. Spring copied most of his article, sometimes almost word for word, from an earlier article (1890). I doubt anyone can truly confirm that the 1890 article was the very first time this particular info had appeared in a newspaper, but it's the earliest I can find.

It's clear to me that John Spring copied most of his story from the earlier article... again... sometimes word for word... and then passed it off as something he had heard from Doc Thorne himself. Here's the article, for those who are interested. Compare it to Spring's article, line by line.

View attachment Doc Thorne 1890 AZ Enterprise story.pdf

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Life's been getting in the way of my participating on this forum. As most of you will recall, I'd posted the above some time ago (page 2 of this thread), and there was some discussion on how many thought John Spring's version of the Doc Thorne story was more believable than the others. I share that view, that it sounds more believable than the others.

I've done considerable research on the Doc Thorne story, and in the course of that have encountered incontrovertible proof that the story as it's been handed down, just can't be true. I'll post most of that evidence as time allows. I'll say up front, that I believe the core of the story is most likely true...that Doc Thorne saw what he believed was a rich deposit of gold somewhere to the east of Ft. McDowell...and thus, I believe it's worth investigating the story...but some level of fact must be discerned from the stories before anyone has any hope of finding it...assuming there's any detectable gold left on the surface, at this late date.

Back to John Spring and his article. Spring wrote many such articles for a veteran's newspaper, and I believe he knew most of what he was writing was campfire BS. Most of the old-time AZ storytellers, of which Spring was one, did this all the time. His articles were pure entertainment, a lot of truth to them, but yarns nonetheless. He was trying to entertain folks, and provide fodder for newspapers and magazines so they could sell papers and increase their advertising revenue.

Was Spring telling the truth about meeting Doc Thorne in Sonora, and that's how he came by the story? No, he wasn't telling the truth about that. Spring copied most of his article, sometimes almost word for word, from an earlier article (1890). I doubt anyone can truly confirm that the 1890 article was the very first time this particular info had appeared in a newspaper, but it's the earliest I can find.

It's clear to me that John Spring copied most of his story from the earlier article... again... sometimes word for word... and then passed it off as something he had heard from Doc Thorne himself. Here's the article, for those who are interested. Compare it to Spring's article, line by line.

View attachment 1947718

In 1869, Corydon Cooley went looking for Doc Thorne's gold with a couple of other notable AZ pioneers. He found himself in the middle of the Army/Apache conflict, and this led to a set of tragedies that are another whole set of separate stories. Cooley married two of Pedro's (Carrizo band, Western Apache) daughters, and settled down where Ft. Apache would be created. Jim Bark and Martha Summerhayes, among others, had written down their experiences with Cooley and his wives. Cooley's ranch would become "The Place" to go for travelers in eastern AZ, and literally everyone in the territory back then, stayed with the Cooley's.

Anyway, in the course of Doc Thorne research, we'll run across a character known as "Charlie Franklin". This was an alias that Alfred Franklin Banta used. Some of the stories have "Charlie Franklin" and Banta as both having participated in the search with Cooley. Which I'm sure Banta found hilarious. Banta was another of those old-timer storytellers and he wrote a few pieces on what happened during the search in the summer of 1869.

Fortunately, Cooley's search for the Doc Thorne was outlined in a letter he had written to the Weekly Arizonian in 1869. Possibly the first documented search, he used info he had gotten from Doc Thorne in the form of a letter. Here's Cooley's letter explaining what happened:

View attachment Cooley Letter Arizonan 1869.pdf

 

[Idahodutch]

Jim,
When you posted the first story, I missed that the Indian chief’s name was Pedro.
And I think you’re right about the articles ... same story .... copied.

Then saw mention of another Indian chief named Miguel.
I just found it interesting about the names of these chiefs.

To me the description of the area leading up to and where Doc saw the gold, is very interesting.
It was laying on bedrock, west of some red hills.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Jim,
When you posted the first story, I missed that the Indian chief?s name was Pedro.
And I think you?re right about the articles ... same story .... copied.

Then saw mention of another Indian chief named Miguel.
I just found it interesting about the names of these chiefs.

To me the description of the area leading up to and where Doc saw the gold, is very interesting.
It was laying on bedrock, west of some red hills.

Yes, Pedro and Miguel were both very friendly towards Americans, and both played a part in Cooley's life. Miguel had actually taken over the Carrizo band from Pedro, at which time Pedro went to live with another band. Miguel and his brother Diablo were both eventually killed by other Apaches, largely due to their friendship with Americans and the grief and division caused to the Apache by American intrusion into their lands.

At the time that Cooley was looking for Doc Thorne's gold, both Pedro and Miguel were trying very hard to show they were friendly...shown by Pedro giving some of his daughters to Cooley, and Miguel's trying to help Cooley and later the Army. In the end, they all got pretty much screwed by the Big Green Machine and politics.

Cooley was a Virginian who joined the Union New Mexico Volunteers. He saw action against the Confederates in several battles in NM, nearly getting his nose shot off. After the war, he served as a scout for Crook. He has a very interesting life story.

 

[Doc4261]

Yes, Pedro and Miguel were both very friendly towards Americans, and both played a part in Cooley's life. Miguel had actually taken over the Carrizo band from Pedro, at which time Pedro went to live with another band. Miguel and his brother Diablo were both eventually killed by other Apaches, largely due to their friendship with Americans and the grief and division caused to the Apache by American intrusion into their lands.

At the time that Cooley was looking for Doc Thorne's gold, both Pedro and Miguel were trying very hard to show they were friendly...shown by Pedro giving some of his daughters to Cooley, and Miguel's trying to help Cooley and later the Army. In the end, they all got pretty much screwed by the Big Green Machine and politics.

Cooley was a Virginian who joined the Union New Mexico Volunteers. He saw action against the Confederates in several battles in NM, nearly getting his nose shot off. After the war, he served as a scout for Crook. He has a very interesting life story.

Very interesting. U went down a rabbit hole I would of never thought. Give ya creds for some interesting info. Amazing how deep about the Sups u can go and only scratch the surface.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Thanks, Doc...but take a look at a follow-up letter from Cooley, after he had reached Ft. McDowell and moved on to Swilling's Ranch:

View attachment Cooley Doc Thorne Search Sep 1865.pdf

It's clear, beyond any reasonable doubt, that he was searching in the area of Sombrero Butte. He wasn't searching in or near the Supes:

EDIT: Researching the Apache, and also the soldiers Cooley encountered, may SEEM like a rabbit hole. However, knowing who those people were, where they lived, and what they were doing, gives a more clear indication of exactly where Cooley was during the search. This info, taken with his own description of where he was looking/wanted to look for Doc Thorne's gold, makes it absolutely clear that Cooley was NOT searching the Supes.

We can thank later authors, who knew better, for trying to associate Doc Thorne's gold with the Supes. In other words, they were just making it up to spruce up their theories and stories.