DOC NOSS-Victorio Peak OR The Caballo Mountains

[UncleMatt]

I will re-read tomorrow, as I thought I had seen references to chains and/or shackles. It was just something I found odd.

 

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[sdcfia]

Something else that I've been working on it trying to figure out why there were chained skeletons in the vaults. As many as 29 were mentioned. If it were LaRue and his community working there, would chained workers or prisoners left to die make sense? He was supposedly the kind of guy who wouldn't engage in such things. So who was working this site? There was a large wooden cross on the wall of one of the rooms, so that says Spanish activity, does it not?. Or it may mean that LaRue might not have been quite the man of God he was reputed to be. The doomed were either left there to die on purpose when someone abandoned the site, or the people in charge were killed, and no one was left alive to release any of the chained. I doubt the Spanish would ever willingly abandon such a hoard of gold and valuables, so that means they were most likely killed. By whom? I can't help but wonder if the date the Spanish lost the site at VP was 1680...

First you have the priest absolve the swordsmen of future sins, then they kill the slaves. Tried and true.

I don't believe the Pueblo Revolt reached as far south as the Caballo region. The Spanish retreat was uncontested south of the Albuquerque region. The Spanish maintained a significant presence in Mesilla and El Paso after the retreat, and I suspect such a metal refining operation as is alleged in the Caballos, VP, etc. would certainly not be abandoned.

"Who was operating this site?" is a good question. The Spanish didn't seem to tout it. Logistics and history seem to rule out the Jesuits. LaRue was supposedly a Franciscan, but there is really no clear documentation that there was such a priest.

 

[johnmark29020]

According to wiki The practice of wall a person sentenced to in a wall or hidden room was common. The catholic church was know to do it to monks and nuns for breaking a vow.

The bodies seen chained in the kneeling position. May have been monks that broke a vow.

 

[gollum]

According to wiki The practice of wall a person sentenced to in a wall or hidden room was common. The catholic church was know to do it to monks and nuns for breaking a vow.

The bodies seen chained in the kneeling position. May have been monks that broke a vow.

I don't think your use of the word "common" was quite appropriate. The known times the Church Immured someone can be counted on one hand. I don't say its not possible, but it is unlikely.

Immurement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

sdc: Rule out the Jesuits?? on the contrary they were the only ones that could have done it

 

[johnmark29020]

I don't think your use of the word "common" was quite appropriate. The known times the Church Immured someone can be counted on one hand. I don't say its not possible, but it is unlikely.

Immurement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mike

I didnt mean a common church practice. Just a common practice over all. Its been practiced by many cultures.cHowever the church was the one who placed the condemned in the prayer position.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

ers, a little off subject but --I just spent a couple of hours looking for the Higgs particle and the Hadron particle accelerator and came to same concluson as you,

"I is stoopid"

The math they used was completely over my head, although I did recognize a, & and some others.

 

[johnmark29020]

sdc: Rule out the Jesuits?? on the contrary they were the only ones that could have done it

Doesnt the story say the priest left his post. Taking his floak to vp. If he was a nut like jim jones. Then those chained. May have been his victims.
It might explain why who ever bond them left the gold.

 

[UncleMatt]

When you are chained to a wall, and become weaker over time, you sink down to your knees if they can reach the floor, or maybe even if they can't reach the floor. Subsequently, I wouldn't place too much emphasis on the whole "kneeling position" thing. More emphasis should be placed on how they were attached to the wall. Was it chains and shackles that required "keys", or was it rawhide strips or rope? One would suggest Spanish, the other Apache, in my humble opinion. And we don't know if they were put to the blade or not, more likely they were simply never released from their bonds, and died from lack of water and food. Unless we have a skeleton to examine forensically, or perhaps photos of the site before it was destroyed, guessing is all we can do.

 

[UncleMatt]

With regard to the idea it was dead monks who were connected to the wall, why would the gold have been left behind? If Spanish and Church officials tracked down LaRue and left the men of his group to die attached to walls as punishment for breaking vows or laws, why leave the gold behind?Is it like the Spanish to do something like that?

Again, it makes more sense that the people were slaves, and their master were killed and never returned to release them. If they were attached to walls at lower levels, the attacking Indians may have never realized their people were being held captive down below. That explains why the gold was left behind: no one left alive who knew of it or could remove it. If VP was lost to the Spanish in the 1680 revolt, that would have also provided plenty of time for Apaches to continue storing treasure there that was taken from people traveling through Jornada del Muerto or up the Rio Grande.

 

[sdcfia]

With regard to the idea it was dead monks who were connected to the wall, why would the gold have been left behind? If Spanish and Church officials tracked down LaRue and left the men of his group to die attached to walls as punishment for breaking vows or laws, why leave the gold behind?Is it like the Spanish to do something like that?

Again, it makes more sense that the people were slaves, and their master were killed and never returned to release them. If they were attached to walls at lower levels, the attacking Indians may have never realized their people were being held captive down below. That explains why the gold was left behind: no one left alive who knew of it or could remove it. If VP was lost to the Spanish in the 1680 revolt, that would have also provided plenty of time for Apaches to continue storing treasure there that was taken from people traveling through Jornada del Muerto or up the Rio Grande.

Please read the history of the Pueblo Revolt of 1680 and explain how "VP was lost to the Spanish". Yes, the Apaches often terrorized the Jornada del Muerto and stole whatever they could use from their victims. Are you theorizing that the travelers were transporting thousands of gold bars from Mexico to Santa Fe? And if so, without an army to protect them?

LaRue. Other than the same treasure book repeats, can you verify that such a man actually existed in Chihuahua and "moved his flock" to a gold mine in New Mexico? Roger Snow's explanation of LaRue is more palatable.

What "makes more sense" is that there were no ancient treasure vaults under VP. After the Douhthit events (whatever they were), Noss searched for a suitable site, then fabricated his VP findings in order to draw attention away from Willie's cave in the Caballos - the true source of his gold and where the evidence likely existed that linked him to murder. Whatever happened in VP after 1949 is an entirely separate piece of history, which, while compelling, has no relevance to the source of the Douhthit-Noss-et al gold. It's ironic - Noss the scammer became the government's convenient patsy.

 

[sdcfia]

When you are chained to a wall, and become weaker over time, you sink down to your knees if they can reach the floor, or maybe even if they can't reach the floor. Subsequently, I wouldn't place too much emphasis on the whole "kneeling position" thing. More emphasis should be placed on how they were attached to the wall. Was it chains and shackles that required "keys", or was it rawhide strips or rope? One would suggest Spanish, the other Apache, in my humble opinion. And we don't know if they were put to the blade or not, more likely they were simply never released from their bonds, and died from lack of water and food. Unless we have a skeleton to examine forensically, or perhaps photos of the site before it was destroyed, guessing is all we can do.

And, as you might recall, some of these bone fragments were allegedly retrieved during the ONFP days. Dr. Swearigen could have verified that they were human, but declined. He complained about the cost, but probably worried that they were deer bones.

Yes, you keep raising a very good point: where are the photos? In particular, with all the $hit Noss was trudging through for years with people calling him a liar about the treasure and all, why didn't he produce photos of the "ricks"? He had a camera, he took other pictures - lots of them. Sure, he could drag out a gold bar from the bushes (via Willie's cave) to impress the rubes, but why not some photos of the stacks of bars?

 

[UncleMatt]

I see many references to photos, on more than just this website, its just that they are not posted publically. I believe the ONFP has many of these photos, as Jerry Cheatham was supposed to have some he showed to Roger Snow.

 

[UncleMatt]

Does anyone know an exact time frame for the LaRue story? I believe it was the early 1800's. LaRue was supposedly informed of the site by an old soldier, a survivor from the 1680 revolt days, so perhaps it was mid to late 1700's instead. If a soldier was old enough to fight in 1680, life spans during that era would probably limit a deathbed confession to LaRue by such a soldier to the mid 1700's.

Possible scenario: Site discovered and mined by Spanish prior to 1680 revolt, then lost by Spanish in the revolt, and subsequently slaves left to die in caverns. It is forgotten except by a lone surviving soldier, who passes knowledge of VP onto LaRue. LaRue takes over VP and mines at Hembrillo Basin until confronted by authorities. Warned of their approach, he hides all signs of the mine and hoarded wealth. Site is forgotten once again when LaRue and his followers are killed, with site still hidden.

BUT! Why would the skeletons still be there from the 1680 revolt if LaRue had been mining and hoarding at VP long after that? I doubt they would have worked with them just laying there. So perhaps it WAS the Apaches who left people to die there. I could see their delicious revenge obtained by staking the Spanish captives next to their white man's treasure and left to die within reach of it...

OR perhaps LaRue was never at VP, and the hoard of gold bars was gathered there prior to 1680. The natives knew of its location from the 1680 revolt attack, and they continued to add to it over the years as they raided mule trains and travelers over the years. Again, I could see how this would delight them to know they were stealing the white man's treasure and hiding it away back in mother earth...

 

[sdcfia]

sdc: Rule out the Jesuits?? on the contrary they were the only ones that could have done it

I understand that you are using the "Noss map" to bolster your Tayopa findings, but without provenance, that map could have originated with anybody at any time, for all we know. Why do you say the Jesuits are the only ones who could have originally possessed the Caballo gold?

 

[sdcfia]

I see many references to photos, on more than just this website, its just that they are not posted publically. I believe the ONFP has many of these photos, as Jerry Cheatham was supposed to have some he showed to Roger Snow.

Whiskey talk.

If ONFP had photographic proof, why hasn't it been used?

I could be wrong, but I believe the Snow reference pertained to the Organs.

 

[UncleMatt]

Why hasn't it been used? To do what exactly? Gold was already gone.

I see a thread on another site where Roger discusses the photos of wooden figurines that were supposedly smuggled out by GI's involved in the gold removal process from VP....

 

[sdcfia]

Why hasn't it been used? To do what exactly? Gold was already gone.

I see a thread on another site where Roger discusses the photos of wooden figurines that were supposedly smuggled out by GI's involved in the gold removal process from VP....

To do what? Are you serious? How about to help verify that the story is true? They just published a thousand pages of "proof" - why not one photo? One photo of Doc in front of a stack of gold bars in a cave with a datable T or C newspaper headline in hand, with maybe some shackled skeletons nearby would eliminate several hundred pages of "he said, she said" for me.

 

[UncleMatt]

Don't get me wrong, I would love to see ALL photos that exist go public! But stable mental processes often seem to be lacking in the psyche of many treasure hunters. More common is irrational paranoia! If they show someone what they have, why, it might be used to steal their treasure! lol

Why are so many drunks, as Noss was? If you want to get technical, everything we are discussing here is "whiskey talk"...

 

[Not Peralta]

I understand that you are using the "Noss map" to bolster your Tayopa findings, but without provenance, that map could have originated with anybody at any time, for all we know. Why do you say the Jesuits are the only ones who could have originally possessed the Caballo gold?

HELLO, the same could be said for VP gold, or CABALLO gold ,or any other treasure in the SW. you want provenance go to a flea market, or an auction. when you have spent the time in the field and doing the research a lot of these people have done in their lifetimes, and are blessed with the the spirit of insight , you will know if things are right or not, real treasure hunters and researchers use what info works for them ,not what works for anyone else.most things you read on here did not happen yesterday, some things happened many moons ago, try reading the post from the beginnings, try reading mikes post on Jesuits,and there are a lot more post on Jesuits listed, read and learn from the past. np