Did Waltz really have a rich mine?

[jere64ca]

Have any of you read Jacob's Trail-The Legend of Jacob Waltz's Lost Dutchman Gold Mine by Jesse James Feldman?

Very interesting read,,,, it will at least present some believable theories on the "stories" surrounding the Lost Dutchman. Yes, it is written by the same Jesse Feldman that was on the TV show Ice Cold Gold, although it was written well before the show was even a thought. I was very impressed by the depth of research undertaken to come to his conclusions.

 

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[markmar]

No , I didn't read the Feldman's book , but I woud like the read one of those believable theories that impressed you .

 

[audigger53]

You don't think that the stole the maps do you? LOL If they would steal the gold why not the maps.
I still don't understand why he didn't file a claim on it. He became a US Citizen so he could file claims. Why didn't he file a claim on his "mine"? Was it on someone else's claim? I don't know. If it was at the bottom or top of a claim that had discovery established, even if it was copper or silver, then I can see him not telling where it was.

 

[audigger53]

BTW Lode claims in the state of Arizona are 600 feet by 900 feet. For Placer claims, 20 acres. I think it would be hard to make a placer claim in the Supes, unless it was on the river.

 

[audigger53]

Bill

The most new trails/roads out there , are on the old trails .
The clues that gave Waltz to Julia and Holmes , both routes at a specific point , intersect eachother on the Military trail . IMO , this is the crucial point which have to find to be close to the LDM .
Remember : in Julia's route , the canyon that go north , and in Holmes route , to follow the Military trail till turns south . This is the point which Julia and Holmes would been coming face to face .

Marius That is why I mentioned to trip to Queen Creek. That is closer to the Peralta Trail Head than Phoenix. I take that to mean that it is on the SW trail in to his area, not the First Water Trail Head.

 

[azdave35]

You don't think that the stole the maps do you? LOL If they would steal the gold why not the maps.
I still don't understand why he didn't file a claim on it. He became a US Citizen so he could file claims. Why didn't he file a claim on his "mine"? Was it on someone else's claim? I don't know. If it was at the bottom or top of a claim that had discovery established, even if it was copper or silver, then I can see him not telling where it was.

au:...i believe this has been discussed before but here goes...the reason he (or anyone else in their right mind) wouldn't file a claim on a rich mine is because once you file a claim everyone will know the area of your mine ...they dont have to follow you to it ..they just get in the area and watch where you go from a vantage point...then they either kill you or wait till you leave and high grade the dickens out of your mine...its a different story if your mine is in the middle of a busy mining district with people everywhere..in that case you would file a claim...but if your mine is in the middle of nowhere filing a claim isn't wise

 

[Azquester]

One word why he didn't file.

Murder

 

[Azquester]

Bill

The most new trails/roads out there , are on the old trails .
The clues that gave Waltz to Julia and Holmes , both routes at a specific point , intersect eachother on the Military trail . IMO , this is the crucial point which have to find to be close to the LDM .
Remember : in Julia's route , the canyon that go north , and in Holmes route , to follow the Military trail till turns south . This is the point which Julia and Holmes would been coming face to face .

That's if you believe what they were telling to the general public. Holmes was not at the deathbed confession so his info was second hand. With that in mind, I would dare say it's impossible to locate a fable. That is, unless you follow the rainbow to the end...

 

[audigger53]

I remember stories about Waltz leaving town and people following him.
If they lost him and returned to town, he would show up later with some small amount of gold,and wait for a while before going back out.

Sometimes he would return to town and the people that tried to follow him never returned. That was when he would have some money to spend.
Did he kill them and strip them for their money? Did he realize that they would torture him if they caught him away from people? Most likely IMO. I think he started to think of story about his "Mine" to be more of a curse than a pleasant story.

 

[azdave35]

That's if you believe what they were telling to the general public. Holmes was not at the deathbed confession so his info was second hand. With that in mind, I would dare say it's impossible to locate a fable. That is, unless you follow the rainbow to the end...

the only ones that got their info from the dutchman was julia and the petrash's ...and no one really knows how much of the truth he told them...any other source would be second hand or pure fabrication

 

[SGnAZ]

Have any of you read Jacob's Trail-The Legend of Jacob Waltz's Lost Dutchman Gold Mine by Jesse James Feldman?

Very interesting read,,,, it will at least present some believable theories on the "stories" surrounding the Lost Dutchman. Yes, it is written by the same Jesse Feldman that was on the TV show Ice Cold Gold, although it was written well before the show was even a thought. I was very impressed by the depth of research undertaken to come to his conclusions.

 

[cactusjumper]

the only ones that got their info from the dutchman was julia and the petrash's ...and no one really knows how much of the truth he told them...any other source would be second hand or pure fabrication

Dave,

I believe the only Petrasch that knew Waltz, was Rhiney, despite their claims to have known him. He was dead when they came down to help in the search.

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Dave,

I believe the only Petrasch that knew Waltz, was Rhiney, despite their claims to have known him. He was dead when they came down to help in the search.

Take care,

Joe

yes joe....rhiney knew waltz ,,,herman never met him..but rhiney told herman everything waltz told him...rhiney told other people and thats one of the reasons the two brothers separated... herman had a spewl of b.s. that he told tourist but as far as i know he only told one man the truth about what waltz told rhiney and julia

 

[Azquester]

yes joe....rhiney knew waltz ,,,herman never met him..but rhiney told herman everything waltz told him...rhiney told other people and thats one of the reasons the two brothers separated... herman had a spewl of b.s. that he told tourist but as far as i know he only told one man the truth about what waltz told rhiney and julia

Has that man ever told his version of what Herman told him as a truthful story? I've heard the one about the placer in the interview from Herman, it makes no sense.

 

[azdave35]

Has that man ever told his version of what Herman told him as a truthful story? I've heard the one about the placer in the interview from Herman, it makes no sense.

yes he has..most of the crap herman told people makes no sense...

 

[markmar]

That's if you believe what they were telling to the general public. Holmes was not at the deathbed confession so his info was second hand. With that in mind, I would dare say it's impossible to locate a fable. That is, unless you follow the rainbow to the end...

Seems you are collecting in your mind only the theories that try to transform the Waltz mine story in a fairy tale . Don't forget how Holmes has also a map in which the mine is marked wiht X .
But i don't try to change your mindset and i want to ask you : What standards should had a military trail to be a safe trail ? . If you know the standards , then you can draw the trail on the map , from the First Water to Weavers Needle .

 

[Injunbro]

This will probably get me labeled as a liar or BS artist but during his Apache Scout days my Great Grandfather knew Jacob Walz, the Apaches called him Snow Beard. If you want verification of my great-grandfather go to the archives @ Sharlot Hall Museum in Prescott, AZ & look up Will Rice. Walz (correct German spelling) was married(?) to an Apache widow who showed him gold caches in the Superstitions & was killed by other Apaches for what they viewed as treason. Gold was considered the Thunder God's blood & despite what some claim Apaches did trade it for food or ammo, etc. but only when needed. Using it for material gain was forbidden & Walz followed that practice since there was still quite a few Apaches in the Sup's. A few traditional Apaches still perform ceremonies there to this day. Most of Walz's caches were near the Apache holy land where they claim to have come from the underground to the modern world (in my opinion when they quit being cave dwellers). There's a sacred cave where gold was cached, no there's none there now, nor will I tell you how to find it (I'm Christian but respect their religion). Walz did have 2 gold mines somewhat north of the Sup's worked by him & Migeul Peralta (who owned a store in Wickenburg, AZ @ the time Walz worked @ the Vulture Mine). Walz & Peralta filed claims for these & Peraltas was eventually sold to James Addison Reavis who greatly exaggerated the holding in a land scam (research Reavis for a tangled mess of paperwork!). Walz's gold wasn't high-graded from the Vulture, some of Walz's ore still exists in a private collection & the matrix doesn't match, it also doesn't match the ore from his & Peralta's mines. The Peralta/Walz mine was worked out long ago. There are records of Walz shipping quite a bit of money to his sister in Germany, he really had a lot of it. The "mine stolen from Mexicans is a page stolen directly from the Constellation Mine (north of Wickenburg) history, it has nothing to do w/ Walz. Only a fool would file a claim for a mine in the Sup's that couldn't be guarded & he didn't. Walz lived in a comfortable adobe in his old age in Phoenix & died of pneumonia on 10/13/1891 (age 81) & people have been tangling "facts" w/ garbage ever since. You can believe what I wrote or not but I have nothing to gain by telling untruths. No, I'm not selling maps or taking anyone hiking/prospecting/etc. in the Sup's.

 

[Hal Croves]

This will probably get me labeled as a liar or BS artist but during his Apache Scout days my Great Grandfather knew Jacob Walz, the Apaches called him Snow Beard. If you want verification of my great-grandfather go to the archives @ Sharlot Hall Museum in Prescott, AZ & look up Will Rice. Walz (correct German spelling) was married(?) to an Apache widow who showed him gold caches in the Superstitions & was killed by other Apaches for what they viewed as treason. Gold was considered the Thunder God's blood & despite what some claim Apaches did trade it for food or ammo, etc. but only when needed. Using it for material gain was forbidden & Walz followed that practice since there was still quite a few Apaches in the Sup's. A few traditional Apaches still perform ceremonies there to this day. Most of Walz's caches were near the Apache holy land where they claim to have come from the underground to the modern world (in my opinion when they quit being cave dwellers). There's a sacred cave where gold was cached, no there's none there now, nor will I tell you how to find it (I'm Christian but respect their religion). Walz did have 2 gold mines somewhat north of the Sup's worked by him & Migeul Peralta (who owned a store in Wickenburg, AZ @ the time Walz worked @ the Vulture Mine). Walz & Peralta filed claims for these & Peraltas was eventually sold to James Addison Reavis who greatly exaggerated the holding in a land scam (research Reavis for a tangled mess of paperwork!). Walz's gold wasn't high-graded from the Vulture, some of Walz's ore still exists in a private collection & the matrix doesn't match, it also doesn't match the ore from his & Peralta's mines. The Peralta/Walz mine was worked out long ago. There are records of Walz shipping quite a bit of money to his sister in Germany, he really had a lot of it. The "mine stolen from Mexicans is a page stolen directly from the Constellation Mine (north of Wickenburg) history, it has nothing to do w/ Walz. Only a fool would file a claim for a mine in the Sup's that couldn't be guarded & he didn't. Walz lived in a comfortable adobe in his old age in Phoenix & died of pneumonia on 10/13/1891 (age 81) & people have been tangling "facts" w/ garbage ever since. You can believe what I wrote or not but I have nothing to gain by telling untruths. No, I'm not selling maps or taking anyone hiking/prospecting/etc. in the Sup's.

I don't know what to say but, I like the idea of being unable to protect the mine as a reason for not filing a claim.

 

[audigger53]

Welcome and thanks for the update. I can easily believe in caches and the Apaches needing Turquoise to swap for the gold. That from a friend of mine that is 1/4 Apache.
No I don't know where he saw the gold and didn't want to find out the hard way.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Was the dutchman telling the truth ?? Many an old prospecter as he was ending his active life told of the big strike, etc, that he had made, but for one reason or another was unable to return to it. So was he telling the whole truth, did he in fact hit big, but ?