Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

[architecad]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

I say hell yes -- the USA did bad things as well in their past --both with the unfair and immoral deals with native americans and with slavery --sin / blots on our nations history -- partly piad for in blood and treasure somewhat -- both of the USA and Spain have done wrong !!! the point is that wrong was done , folks were enslaved and abused (there is no "claen end" to pick that one up by)-- the fact that "we were stronger" tech wize and military wize than the "exploited" folks at the time --does not whitewash it or make it morally or ethically "right" to do so -- the gee everyone was doing it at that time is a LAME excuse for trying to justify doing morally wrong actions , via the old " military might makes it all right" to do as you please to others and claim whats theirs and enslavement of others via the military "conquest" of them

Ivan said:

"I say hell yes -- the USA did bad things as well in their past --both with the unfair and immoral deals with native americans and with slavery --sin / blots on our nations history -- partly piad for in blood and treasure somewhat -- both of the USA and Spain have done wrong !!! the point is that wrong was done"

Thanks to understand the true point.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Diving for Pleasure and Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[ivan salis]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

some folks are strangely drawn to the sound of cannons , the smell of spent gunpowder , the sight of spilled blood and mangled bodies -- veiwing such carnage commited by one upon another gives them great glee -- these are very very sick and sad creatures that truely enjoy the pain and suffering of others and they love to see things in "discord" (folks fighting with one another) -- often if theres no "war" to see -- they will attempt to "stir one up" to satisify themselves. (they will go so far as to do a 180 flip as far as sides on a issue go to get two "differant" groups stirred up and fighting with one another)

this is sad, sad, sad. they need many many hours of therapy ( and even that might not help) who knows why they are this way

 

[architecad]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

If we could only come up with a compromise.

Ossy

So throw some ice on this, many times writing on the internet can not be truly understood as if it were a verbal conversation.

So I'm just curious... Do you not believe that OM attempted that?

Here's something that I thought when reading through the piles of court docs and other info.

Why is this so much more different than the HMS Sussex?

If not familiar with it... http://www.shipwreck.net/hmssussex.php

I would tend to believe and maybe it's just the "treasure hunter" in me that the HMS Sussex would be the world's role model and prime example of cooperation between a country and private sector salvage that is mutually beneficial to all parties.


Now unless OM is outright lieing they claim that the same was afforded to Spain...

Being a Sovereign War ship of major historical Importance to Spain, They Said NO ! Which goes back to my other point of it being illegal
Why did Odyssey take all the coins and run !! If they felt it was legal what they did. Would they not have had protection?

Because they look like who steel a bicycle from the Metro Station. He or she runs with the bicycle because they know they're wrong, illegal or whatever you call it. The Odyssey's advocate defend with theirs live the Odyssey's trial for many reasons:

1. Some of them has prior investment with Odyssey company.
2. Many of them confuse "patriotism" with the fact Odyssey wins the trial and owns the coins. I bet if Spain were England, Odyssey had return those coins.
3. And the most ridiculous reason, many of them think they control the words.

Odyssey never ever allowed to get aboard Spain's personnel to observe the Odyssey's works, Why?? They had everything planned.

Arch

Have you even read court docs?
your assumptions in 1,2,3 well you know what they say about assuming...

Completely non sense what are saying. Give up!! Everything you had said is 100% non sense in this forum. Misinterpreting and accusing that I said United State committed atrocities when I explained very well my meanings over my statement, but it's ok, people like you makes than other people from other country hates this country. How many time you and other guys accused to Spain had committed genocide against other people during the colony period? You said "Spain" in general terms, however, when somebody say "United State did the same", Oh! it's infamy...... Come on, give me a break!!

Please don't talk about "read court doc." because you don't even know to read.

Arch

Don't let it get to you Arch, Insulting is the wrong way. Your Better than that.
Ossy

Thanks Ossy. What happens with this kind of citizens is; He likes to "plays stupid" when read a statement that he doesn't agree at all, twist the statement putting it in a prejudiced angle into the same conversation, then he finish up pointing out the writer as "traitor" or "infamy". Other than that, you're right

Arch

 

[jeff k]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

If we could only come up with a compromise.

Ossy

So throw some ice on this, many times writing on the internet can not be truly understood as if it were a verbal conversation.

So I'm just curious... Do you not believe that OM attempted that?

Here's something that I thought when reading through the piles of court docs and other info.

Why is this so much more different than the HMS Sussex?

If not familiar with it... http://www.shipwreck.net/hmssussex.php

I would tend to believe and maybe it's just the "treasure hunter" in me that the HMS Sussex would be the world's role model and prime example of cooperation between a country and private sector salvage that is mutually beneficial to all parties.


Now unless OM is outright lieing they claim that the same was afforded to Spain...

Being a Sovereign War ship of major historical Importance to Spain, They Said NO ! Which goes back to my other point of it being illegal
Why did Odyssey take all the coins and run !! If they felt it was legal what they did. Would they not have had protection?

Because they look like who steel a bicycle from the Metro Station. He or she runs with the bicycle because they know they're wrong, illegal or whatever you call it. The Odyssey's advocate defend with theirs live the Odyssey's trial for many reasons:

1. Some of them has prior investment with Odyssey company.
2. Many of them confuse "patriotism" with the fact Odyssey wins the trial and owns the coins. I bet if Spain were England, Odyssey had return those coins.
3. And the most ridiculous reason, many of them think they control the words.

Odyssey never ever allowed to get aboard Spain's personnel to observe the Odyssey's works, Why?? They had everything planned.

Arch

Spain was invited to go along, but declined. The court documents clearly state that they were searching an area for the potential of several shipwrecks, some of which could be Spanish, which is why they approached Spain before starting the search. The names of the shipwrecks were never mentioned to the Spanish.

"on November 13 , 2006, Odyssey announced to the Directorate General of Fine Arts of the Minister of Culture in Madrid, in a meeting attended by Greg Stemm representing Odyssey and Odyssey's legal counsel, Mr. Jose Luis Goni, the possibility of shipwreck finds which could have cultural historical interest to Spain. Odyssey offered to Spain the opportunity to collaborate in the projects discussed, and made clear that some of the wrecks were in danger from other salvors and that the company was prepared to collaborate with Spain to identify and protect these sites. This offer had also been made on various occasions to Spanish and Andalusian authorities."

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

I say hell yes -- the USA did bad things as well in their past --both with the unfair and immoral deals with native americans and with slavery --sin / blots on our nations history -- partly piad for in blood and treasure somewhat -- both of the USA and Spain have done wrong !!! the point is that wrong was done , folks were enslaved and abused (there is no "clean end" to pick that turd up by)-- the fact that "we were stronger" tech wize and military wize than the "exploited" folks at the time --does not whitewash it or make it morally or ethically "right" to do so -- the gee everyone was doing it at that time is a LAME excuse for trying to justify doing morally wrong actions , via the old " military might makes it all right" to do as you please to others and claim whats theirs and enslavement of others via the military "conquest" of them .

wrong is wrong no matter who done it or when or who profeits by it.

Well said Ivan.
http://www.typicallyspanish.com/news/publish/article_30512.shtml
Au_Dreamers, could be my cousin
Ossy

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

You Ossy and SWR seem to think that for some reason if you can deflect from the actual parties involved that it makes a boogeyman out of “Americans” and that Spain is innocent in their actions of this case and history.

No, SWR doesn't "seem to think that for some reason.....etc, etc"

You "seem to think" that you can fabricate/concoct what others are thinking... this is simply ridiculous. If you don't know how to use the QUOTE feature, there are those on this board that will instruct you how to do so. If you don't understand somebodies post, or position...it is best NOT to try and speak for them.

ok sorry about that SWR, I forgot that you Carnac the Magnificent have that specialty cornered here on the forums.
Glad you like my quotes!
Cheers!

 

[architecad]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

Mr. Military AU said:

Now it’s ok if you want to retract that statement and now reference a more generalization of the people who actually committed those atrocious but have the common decency to admit you were wrong originally and are now just making big waves to cover yourself.

That's really funny!!

Since you seem so keen on “telling me where to learn history” I’ll give you once again a quick history lesson that you can reference in the future.

Again, super funny!!

To everyone here:

One of the reason that I participate in this forum is to read the arrogant and funny essays of some Shipwreck hunter. Seems to me the gold coins found many time for some of them makes to take them up to the cloud and see the world from another point of view, view that could be rejected for many folks or for many countries.

Arch

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

Good morning arch: You posted -->view that could be rejected for many folks or for many countries
***************
Unfortunately ANY view would fall into that category, especially mine. .

Now, about recovering general debris, including coins, from the ocean bottom with no clear hull or proof of origin nearby ?? Does that automatically fall into a warship category, commercial one, or a delayed Santa Claus operation?

Even with an enormous amount of other debris in the general area, such as canons, artifacts etc. from a major sea battle, how could this be proven to be other than an unusual, 'coincidental' factor?

Many times ships have been found stacked one on top of the other, how could one prove that the debris came from one ship or the other?

Yes, I fully realize that overwhelming data could be assembled, and logically presented, but there would always be that little remaining doubt. Law doesn't accept this in such a situation as we have here.

I am always more than willing to learn, one of the reasons that I am lurking in here. Remember, I am speaking on generalities since I fully realize each case is unique.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[architecad]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

Good morning arch: You posted -->view that could be rejected for many folks or for many countries
***************
Unfortunately ANY view would fall into that category, especially mine. .

Now, about recovering general debris, including coins, from the ocean bottom with no clear hull or proof of origin nearby ?? Does that automatically fall into a warship category, commercial one, or a delayed Santa Claus operation?

Even with an enormous amount of other debris in the general area, such as canons, artifacts etc. from a major sea battle, how could this be proven to be other than an unusual, 'coincidental' factor?

Many times ships have been found stacked one on top of the other, how could one prove that the debris came from one ship or the other?

Yes, I fully realize that overwhelming data could be assembled, and logically presented, but there would always be that little remaining doubt. Law doesn't accept this in such a situation as we have here.

I am always more than willing to learn, one of the reasons that I am lurking in here. Remember, I am speaking on generalities since I fully realize each case is unique.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Mancha

You're right about all your essay, but what I'm trying to say it's about the attitude of some treasure hunters.

Arch

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

good afternoon archi: I agree, but it applies to both sides. I live in Mexico. We have the story of the Legendary lost Jesuit mines of Tayopa.
Seekers have looked for it for 400 years, without success, many have died in the search.

If I invested my time and resources in the search and found it, do you think that I should be rewarded by owning it and being legally 'able to work it'? Remember that along with it, goes the proof of the Jesuit involvement with the Dutch to take North America away from Spain,. the actual reason that they were expelled in 1769. In other words the project is saturated with historical importance for the US, Spain, as well as Mexico.

Every tool that might remain inside is of historical importance, as well as any bars of metal or documents. Any other mine, one would just open it and mine away, but this is not allowable with Tayopa without the correct permits.

Would I be considered as greedy or non caring, if I wished to be compensated royally for spending my time, expertise, and resources trying to accomplish what hadn't been done before. Can Spain, who controlled / owned Mexico at that time, still have a moral or legal claim on it?

Is this any different from commercial salvors morally?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[architecad]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

Tayopa said:

If I invested my time and resources in the search and found it, do you think that I should be rewarded by owning it and being legally 'able to work it'?

I don't agree with you at all. If you're a treasure hunter and you're looking for a treasure that legitimately you know it is not your own and you find it, you have to expect that original owner respond like Spain did because you never got permission to retrieve it. Odyssey knew what they was looking for, they got paper for an exploration but never got paper for recover it if they find. The most intriguing of this story is they never got a Spaniard personal on board, no matter if they never allowed or never Spain sent somebody to be witness where exactly the coins were found. The satellite shown many images around the Spain waters where Odyssey operated but it's impossible to know where exactly the coins were found because no witness. Odyssey said the coins were found in International water, but how you can demonstrate is not true? If there is some evidence, then why the Spain won the trail in Florida?

Arch

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

"It 's not over till the fat lady sings".

 

[architecad]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

"It 's not over till the fat lady sings".

You're right!!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

Hi Archi: First you seem to forget, there is a thing called the statue of limitations. They certainly do not own it perpetually There is a specific reason for this, otherwise the Moors would still own most of present Spain, or the Romans before them, or ..

As for Tayopa, that is a moot question since I did find it, and three other Spanish mines, and now own them legally. however I just wondered about your view morally .

Gracias mi amigo.

 

[architecad]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

Hi Archi: First you seem to forget, there is a thing called the statue of limitations. They certainly do not own it perpetually There is a specific reason for this, otherwise the Moors would still own most of present Spain, or the Romans before them, or ..

As for Tayopa, that is a moot question since I did find it, and three other Spanish mines, and now own them legally. however I just wondered about your view morally .

Gracias mi amigo.

Tayapoa

Don't compare the Spanish mines with the Odyssey's case. Two different scenario and law applications.

Arch

 

[Au_Dreamers]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

Arch have you read court docs or just news reports?

I'm glad you think I'm funny, I'll be here all week....

Arch I am somewhat sorry you consider me arrogant for my stance.

My stance mostly comes from the written laws as I understand them and not nationalism or personal pride. I think the laws are very clear and specific.

You do have one thing correct in that I am a treasure hunter and I know and hold dear to me many people who's livelihoods come from the private sector salvage "industry".

So I do have a vested interest in the outcome of this case beyond an Internet forum curiosity.

As I posted before I believe Spain winning this case will have detrimental affects on private sector salvage, as the Juno shipwreck scenario. But I believe as someone else posted here is that the goal posts have been moved… to accommodate "government interests" just like the Abandoned Shipwrecks Act moved the goal posts because of Mel Fishers win on the Atocha and Margarita, imho.

I just had a new thought too and I’m fairly tired so if I take some hits on this not being exactly accurate it’s ok.

Let’s just say that the wreck is the Mercedes…
I read somewhere that English ships captured 3 Spanish ships. We can forgo the argument of England “knew” Spain was days away from war so it was “legitimate”.
Spain sought compensation for the loss as an act of Piracy and from what I read Spain received it, albeit a “reduced value” of all cargo on the 3 ships but possibly (I haven’t done the math) the “Crown’s” portion in whole.

So, if Spain was compensated for the Crown’s loss of the Mercedes and the other two ships, who is the rightful owner of the coins OM recovered?

 

[Trembull]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

My Two Cents?
Finders keepers

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110524/ap_on_re_us/us_shipwreck_treasure

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

HI Archi: You posted --> Don't compare the Spanish mines with the Odyssey's case. 'Two different scenario and law applications'.
*************
Actually this applies to 'every' case, since no two are identical. The comparison that I was suggesting was not the pure legal aspect, but the moral one. In this, Yes, they 'are' similar.

In the Odyssey's case, as AU so correctly stated, the ones that paid the insurance are the rightful owners today, not Spain, since the actual owners accepted the terms offered. All Spain has the right to, are the ships remains, which, as was carefully pointed out, were not molested, they are still there for Spain to recover.


Don Jose de La Mancha (the mule pushing atavist living in his cave)

 

[Salvor6]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

WOW Jose that means there are thousands of cultural artifacts still left in place on the bottom and Spain has the exact GPS coordinates. Why don't they go get the rest?

 

[architecad]

Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?

Arch have you read court docs or just news reports?

I'm glad you think I'm funny, I'll be here all week....

Arch I am somewhat sorry you consider me arrogant for my stance.

My stance mostly comes from the written laws as I understand them and not nationalism or personal pride. I think the laws are very clear and specific.

You do have one thing correct in that I am a treasure hunter and I know and hold dear to me many people who's livelihoods come from the private sector salvage "industry".

So I do have a vested interest in the outcome of this case beyond an Internet forum curiosity.

As I posted before I believe Spain winning this case will have detrimental affects on private sector salvage, as the Juno shipwreck scenario. But I believe as someone else posted here is that the goal posts have been moved… to accommodate "government interests" just like the Abandoned Shipwrecks Act moved the goal posts because of Mel Fishers win on the Atocha and Margarita, imho.

I just had a new thought too and I’m fairly tired so if I take some hits on this not being exactly accurate it’s ok.

Let’s just say that the wreck is the Mercedes…
I read somewhere that English ships captured 3 Spanish ships. We can forgo the argument of England “knew” Spain was days away from war so it was “legitimate”.
Spain sought compensation for the loss as an act of Piracy and from what I read Spain received it, albeit a “reduced value” of all cargo on the 3 ships but possibly (I haven’t done the math) the “Crown’s” portion in whole.

So, if Spain was compensated for the Crown’s loss of the Mercedes and the other two ships, who is the rightful owner of the coins OM recovered?

I'm out of date regarding Odyssey. Tell me the latest news.

Arch