spez401
Hero Member
Re: Did Odyssey return finally the 500M of spanish coins to "España?
I must have missed this post in my absence... but just a few small points from an objective viewer..
1. No... the coins have not been "returned" to Spain. They never were in Spain in the first place... which is just a red herring to any argument. The question is WHO OWNS THE COINS.
2. Odyssey did absolutely nothing ILLEGAL in how they removed the coins. Was it the best, most correct, thing to do, or was it sneaky and underhanded?... that's what everybody on this (and other) forum is arguing about.
3. the "atrocity argument" that many have made is a pointless argument and has no bearing on the issue at hand. Atrocities have been committed by numerous countries around the world. It doesn't make them right or justified... but the time for addressing those that have been raised here are well passed. Technically every piece of soil we step on has been owned by someone else... and was likely taken by force at one point in time. Arguing that the Spanish plundered the Americas 500+ years ago, is a separate topic, and not part of the Odyssey debate. It has been argued and somewhat settled. Remember, history is written by the VICTOR. Unfortunately, the Mayans, Aztecs, Native Americans and numerous other people that were slaughtered (by the US and Spain - since they are the antagonists here) don't get a say in this debate.
4. As to the legal/illegal question... first it is neither Spain's, nor the USA's laws that govern the issue at hand. It is common law and the "law of the sea", so-called, that has be adopted and followed by just about every nation that has conducted commerce in any ocean (with some exceptions). There are already very established rules that govern salvage, abandonment, etc... and the US law for the most part mirrors the international laws already in place.
5. Saying that Spain is lazy, or that the treasure hunters are greedy... pointless argument. Most of what has been argued is just smokescreen. As I mentioned in point 1- the only question is WHO OWNS THE COINS.
6. So who does own the coins? Right now... the Trustee for the Courts of the United States of America.
All the red herring arguments and smoke aside… here is the question… Who owns the coins?
Spain wants everyone to believe that they are the owners because of the following reasons:
A. They never abandoned the coins.
B. The coins were on a warship, and therefore any warship is sovereign property of that country, and therefore always property of that country. That would go for a US warship, English, etc. Therefore, since The Mercedes was a Spanish Warship, it, and all of its cargo are therefore still, in perpetuity, property of Spain.
C. Spain contracted with Odyssey to find and recover this ship and it was found in Spanish waters, therefore it is Spain’s
D. The wreck is a war grave and has been plundered by Odyssey and therefore its sovereign rights have been violated
Odyssey on the other hand wants everyone to believe the following:
A. The coins were found in international waters and should be governed by Law of the sea conventions, standard admiralty rules, and salvage law, and therefore should be theirs
B. Odyssey followed the law, gained a RES, or a court order governing the site (In the Federal Courts in Florida), and therefore have rights to the “wreck” and its property/cargo
C. There is no physical “wreck” and Odyssey found the cargo of the Mercedes on the bottom of the ocean,
D. The Mercedes was in fact not a Spanish Warship and should therefore be governed by the above-mentioned Law of the sea conventions, standard admiralty rules, and salvage law, and therefore should be theirs
E. The Mercedes was a cargo mission, and therefore not a Military warship, regardless of Spain’s continuous declaration that it was a warship and that the evidence shows that, in fact, it was a cargo ship, and therefore should be governed by Law of the sea conventions, standard admiralty rules, and salvage law, and therefore should be theirs
F. Spain has abandoned any claim that they may have had, because the wreck sat on the bottom o f the ocean for 300+ years.
There are numerous arguments for both sides… and a lot of it is telling and WILL be considered:
1. The Wikileaks documents showing a backdoor deal between Spain and the US Ambassador, which gave Spain access to documents in violation of our US Court Rules
2. The boarding of a Sovereign US Vessel by a foreign government and the illegal detainment of Property and persons
3. Odyssey’s quick flight to the US (knowing that they would likely be Detained by Spain – Either smart quick thinking… or sneaky and underhanded).
4. And there’s plenty more.
But, we all must realize that this is a polarizing situation… just like religion, gay marriage, gun control, and freedom of speech to name a few. There are two, very opposed sides to this coin, and NEITHER side will EVER see the other’s point of view. The name-calling and “patriotic” crap that gets thrown around (along with the numerous insults that have been made, couched in sarcasm) do only one thing… make the speaker look foolish. You can argue all you want, and give your “opinion”… but it is just that… an opinion. And we all know opinions are like A@#holes... Everybody has one and they all stink!
Stop with the name-calling and the insults-masquerading-as-sarcasm (and the flat out insults for that matter), and let’s wait till there is a final court decision. This entire case is about money. Whoever wins is going to get a BOATLOAD of it. Odyssey is obviously hoping they win, because they get to keep the coins and the loot. Spain is hoping that they win for the same reasons. Personally, I think Odyssey is in the right and have the best claim… but I can’t blame Spain for taking a shot at a $500 million possible payday either. And good for those attorneys… they’re the ones who are really making the most out of this deal.
Steve
Ps… as an attorney… I didn’t appreciate the “bloodsucking, slimy lawyer” comments…
they could have been much more colorful.
pss... much of what was written above is done in gereralizations. Me writing a specific, detailed brief of what I know about this case would take numerous pages, and way too much of my time. So take into account the "general" nature of the issues
I must have missed this post in my absence... but just a few small points from an objective viewer..
1. No... the coins have not been "returned" to Spain. They never were in Spain in the first place... which is just a red herring to any argument. The question is WHO OWNS THE COINS.
2. Odyssey did absolutely nothing ILLEGAL in how they removed the coins. Was it the best, most correct, thing to do, or was it sneaky and underhanded?... that's what everybody on this (and other) forum is arguing about.
3. the "atrocity argument" that many have made is a pointless argument and has no bearing on the issue at hand. Atrocities have been committed by numerous countries around the world. It doesn't make them right or justified... but the time for addressing those that have been raised here are well passed. Technically every piece of soil we step on has been owned by someone else... and was likely taken by force at one point in time. Arguing that the Spanish plundered the Americas 500+ years ago, is a separate topic, and not part of the Odyssey debate. It has been argued and somewhat settled. Remember, history is written by the VICTOR. Unfortunately, the Mayans, Aztecs, Native Americans and numerous other people that were slaughtered (by the US and Spain - since they are the antagonists here) don't get a say in this debate.
4. As to the legal/illegal question... first it is neither Spain's, nor the USA's laws that govern the issue at hand. It is common law and the "law of the sea", so-called, that has be adopted and followed by just about every nation that has conducted commerce in any ocean (with some exceptions). There are already very established rules that govern salvage, abandonment, etc... and the US law for the most part mirrors the international laws already in place.
5. Saying that Spain is lazy, or that the treasure hunters are greedy... pointless argument. Most of what has been argued is just smokescreen. As I mentioned in point 1- the only question is WHO OWNS THE COINS.
6. So who does own the coins? Right now... the Trustee for the Courts of the United States of America.
All the red herring arguments and smoke aside… here is the question… Who owns the coins?
Spain wants everyone to believe that they are the owners because of the following reasons:
A. They never abandoned the coins.
B. The coins were on a warship, and therefore any warship is sovereign property of that country, and therefore always property of that country. That would go for a US warship, English, etc. Therefore, since The Mercedes was a Spanish Warship, it, and all of its cargo are therefore still, in perpetuity, property of Spain.
C. Spain contracted with Odyssey to find and recover this ship and it was found in Spanish waters, therefore it is Spain’s
D. The wreck is a war grave and has been plundered by Odyssey and therefore its sovereign rights have been violated
Odyssey on the other hand wants everyone to believe the following:
A. The coins were found in international waters and should be governed by Law of the sea conventions, standard admiralty rules, and salvage law, and therefore should be theirs
B. Odyssey followed the law, gained a RES, or a court order governing the site (In the Federal Courts in Florida), and therefore have rights to the “wreck” and its property/cargo
C. There is no physical “wreck” and Odyssey found the cargo of the Mercedes on the bottom of the ocean,
D. The Mercedes was in fact not a Spanish Warship and should therefore be governed by the above-mentioned Law of the sea conventions, standard admiralty rules, and salvage law, and therefore should be theirs
E. The Mercedes was a cargo mission, and therefore not a Military warship, regardless of Spain’s continuous declaration that it was a warship and that the evidence shows that, in fact, it was a cargo ship, and therefore should be governed by Law of the sea conventions, standard admiralty rules, and salvage law, and therefore should be theirs
F. Spain has abandoned any claim that they may have had, because the wreck sat on the bottom o f the ocean for 300+ years.
There are numerous arguments for both sides… and a lot of it is telling and WILL be considered:
1. The Wikileaks documents showing a backdoor deal between Spain and the US Ambassador, which gave Spain access to documents in violation of our US Court Rules
2. The boarding of a Sovereign US Vessel by a foreign government and the illegal detainment of Property and persons
3. Odyssey’s quick flight to the US (knowing that they would likely be Detained by Spain – Either smart quick thinking… or sneaky and underhanded).
4. And there’s plenty more.
But, we all must realize that this is a polarizing situation… just like religion, gay marriage, gun control, and freedom of speech to name a few. There are two, very opposed sides to this coin, and NEITHER side will EVER see the other’s point of view. The name-calling and “patriotic” crap that gets thrown around (along with the numerous insults that have been made, couched in sarcasm) do only one thing… make the speaker look foolish. You can argue all you want, and give your “opinion”… but it is just that… an opinion. And we all know opinions are like A@#holes... Everybody has one and they all stink!
Stop with the name-calling and the insults-masquerading-as-sarcasm (and the flat out insults for that matter), and let’s wait till there is a final court decision. This entire case is about money. Whoever wins is going to get a BOATLOAD of it. Odyssey is obviously hoping they win, because they get to keep the coins and the loot. Spain is hoping that they win for the same reasons. Personally, I think Odyssey is in the right and have the best claim… but I can’t blame Spain for taking a shot at a $500 million possible payday either. And good for those attorneys… they’re the ones who are really making the most out of this deal.
Steve
Ps… as an attorney… I didn’t appreciate the “bloodsucking, slimy lawyer” comments…
they could have been much more colorful.pss... much of what was written above is done in gereralizations. Me writing a specific, detailed brief of what I know about this case would take numerous pages, and way too much of my time. So take into account the "general" nature of the issues
Nice to see someone with intelligence.
Simple answer, Odyssey Recovered it and Spain didn't get it. This is a Thread about Odyssey isn't it. Let's all try and get along.
