Did dick Holmes father ever help search for the ldm?

[sailaway]

I believe any of us walking the wilderness would target any vein source containing gold. The same would apply to Waltz. There is no proof that all the ore came from one single vein source/mine. according to the Manual Peralta map there were 15 sources.

 

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[somehiker]

I believe any of us walking the wilderness would target any vein source containing gold. The same would apply to Waltz. There is no proof that all the ore came from one single vein source/mine. according to the Manual Peralta map there were 15 sources.

While it may be true..... the more mines the merrier sailaway..... until a first strike has been exhausted there is little or no reason to look to the next MAYBE over there spot.
Especially in hostile territory, mid-late 1800's.
And there is no point in arguing the possible existence of 15 or whatever gold mines the Mexicans worked within the Superstition Mountains prior to then, or that one or two pieces of Waltz's gold MAY have come from one of those earlier mines, or even like we suggest, from one of those he partnered with in the Bradshaws etc.
In the end after all, the legendary LDM is ONE mine in particular, and identified by Waltz's description and the majority at least of the Candlebox ore, rather than just ANY outcropping of gold or old mine out there which happens or happened to have gold within it at one time.

 

[markmar]

what your saying is very true..i have seen it many times myself...i was just thinking that because it all came from under waltz's bed...it was all from the same vein structure ..but who knows...that box may have contained a mixture of ore he collected from different parts of a vein...or from the dump...who really knows at this point

I believe how if in the LDM inclined shaft existed a layer of hematite ore which contained gold and beside a layer of gold in white quartz, for sure between these layers exist some traces of combined hematite powder with white quartz which give an image of shaded red or rose quartz. That's inevitable. What I believe kept the white quartz to remains white, is because the hematite is on the side and downward from the white quartz.
Also, I believe how at the end of the same vein which ends up at the edge of the small valley, hematite changes its location, and being heavier, interfered more in the white quartz, given to it more rose color.

Apache Jack was the first person who said how the Apache after throwing in the shaft mine all the mining tools and filled it with the dump, covered the shaft mine and left an outcrop of gold in rose quartz, not far from the shaft but in a place which they thought how white man never would think to go. The Apache didn't know how Waltz knew about this gold outcrop which later became the mine across the house ruin.

Edit:

Also, I believe Waltz never used the ore from the outcrop mine and what he had mined out from that outcrop is deposited in the mine itself. If the cache was estimated by Waltz at 75,000 US$ at his time, todays value should be about 4,5 million dollars.
I believe what was under his deathbed, was gold from the two caches which were hidden close to the house ruin and were mined from the inclined mine shaft.

 

[azdave35]

marius...alot of the gold ore in arizona has red hematite...in arizona that is one of the indicators you look for when prospecting for gold..its not actually red but rusty brown..(iron oxide).. it will turn quartz a reddish color but dark red..i've never seen it pink...usually its titanium or manganese that turns it pink...i have seen alot of gold ore and never seen rose quartz with gold in it...it does occur but rare..there are quite a few deposits of rose quartz in the superstition area but none has ever produced any gold..

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Here is what is known of the ore from beneath Waltz deathbed. ..... Dick Holmes did not sell all the ore to the Goldman brothers store. He kept several rich sample pieces for comparison as well as several nice pieces he had made into jewelry. Of those pieces were made a set of cuff links, a stick pin and two rings. Brownie Holmes later had two more rings made from the original comparison samples. The dutchman ore matchbox was made from the gold ore that Dick Holmes sold to the Goldman's. Goldman sold most of the ore in California but also sold some prime pieces locally to James Douglas and Emil Ganz and possibly some other prominent citizens.

In later testing, the matchbox proved to be a match to the jewelry ore and sample pieces still in possession of the Holmes family. In other words, wherever the ore originated, the matchbox and all the gold pieces Dick Holmes had were a match and came from a common source.

Now everyone can speculate exactly where the ore came from but it is a confirmed fact all the ore Dick Holmes had came from the same place and he said it came from beneath Waltz deathbed.

It is clear, at least in my mind, that the ore Dick Holmes got from under Waltz bed was from one common source.

 

[azdave35]

Here is what is known of the ore from beneath Waltz deathbed. ..... Dick Holmes did not sell all the ore to the Goldman brothers store. He kept several rich sample pieces for comparison as well as several nice pieces he had made into jewelry. Of those pieces were made a set of cuff links, a stick pin and two rings. Brownie Holmes later had two more rings made from the original comparison samples. The dutchman ore matchbox was made from the gold ore that Dick Holmes sold to the Goldman's. Goldman sold most of the ore in California but also sold some prime pieces locally to James Douglas and Emil Ganz and possibly some other prominent citizens.

In later testing, the matchbox proved to be a match to the jewelry ore and sample pieces still in possession of the Holmes family. In other words, wherever the ore originated, the matchbox and all the gold pieces Dick Holmes had were a match and came from a common source.

Now everyone can speculate exactly where the ore came from but it is a confirmed fact all the ore Dick Holmes had came from the same place and he said it came from beneath Waltz deathbed.

It is clear, at least in my mind, that the ore Dick Holmes got from under Waltz bed was from one common source.

matthew..do you know if the stickpin and cuff links are still around?

 

[markmar]

marius...alot of the gold ore in arizona has red hematite...in arizona that is one of the indicators you look for when prospecting for gold..its not actually red but rusty brown..(iron oxide).. it will turn quartz a reddish color but dark red..i've never seen it pink...usually its titanium or manganese that turns it pink...i have seen alot of gold ore and never seen rose quartz with gold in it...it does occur but rare..there are quite a few deposits of rose quartz in the superstition area but none has ever produced any gold..

Dave, for a geologist or miner, what Apache Jack have seen as " rose " quartz, could see it as rotten hematite quartz or reddish quartz. Was only an unprofessional statement of what an Apache kid have seen at that time.

 

[azdave35]

Dave, for a geologist or miner, what Apache Jack have seen as " rose " quartz, could see it as rotten hematite quartz or reddish quartz. Was only an unprofessional statement of what an Apache kid have seen at that time.

i see what you are saying...where did you get the info on apache jack?...i've read a little about him but not much

 

[Matthew Roberts]

matthew..do you know if the stickpin and cuff links are still around?

azdave35, ..... Yes, the stick pin, cuff links and rings made from the gold ore Dick Holmes got from under Waltz bed are still around. I have seen and handled all those pieces. In addition, there is still a couple pieces of the sample ore Holmes kept for comparison. One of those pieces the corners are well worn because Brownie always carried it in his pocket and was constantly handling it.

 

[markmar]

i see what you are saying...where did you get the info on apache jack?...i've read a little about him but not much

I have read it somewhere in the web. I believe is well known in the LDM community, who talked to Apache Jack.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

I have read it somewhere in the web. I believe is well known in the LDM community, who talked to Apache Jack.

markmar, azdave35, ...... Jim Bark and his foreman George Scholey had an Apache helper named Apache Jack who told them of a mine in the Superstitions and agreed to take Scholey there. They got as far as the top of squaw canyon near Malapais mountain and the Indian lost his nerve and would go no farther. He just pointed to the east and said, busca (search).

 

[azdave35]

markmar, azdave35, ...... Jim Bark and his foreman George Scholey had an Apache helper named Apache Jack who told them of a mine in the Superstitions and agreed to take Scholey there. They got as far as the top of squaw canyon near Malapais mountain and the Indian lost his nerve and would go no farther. He just pointed to the east and said, busca (search).

thanks matthew.

 

[billyjoe]

LOL LOL LOL who knows

 

[sailaway]

Where is the documentation from the testing of the trinkets made from Waltz's ore?and the ore itself? these should be used in the future for conformation of any ore source found in the wilderness. By stating that there was testing done means somewhere there is documents that prove content minerals contained within each piece.
https://www.mindat.org/min-1720.html

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Where is the documentation from the testing of the trinkets made from Waltz's ore?and the ore itself? these should be used in the future for conformation of any ore source found in the wilderness. By stating that there was testing done means somewhere there is documents that prove content minerals contained within each piece.
https://www.mindat.org/min-1720.html

Sailaway, thank you for editing you know what

I used to have the same questions and concerns myself, until I reminded myself that all these items are private property, and the holder/s are under no obligation to release anything at all. One way to look at it is to just be glad that the person/s who own these objects have released all the information that they have...the items have been made available to the public to what I believe is a pretty big extent, probably more than I would feel comfortable with if I was the owner/s. Dr. Glover has published (with permission) some of the analytical data but there are pitfalls in revealing too much, as in a scam artist showing up with a fake assay that matches the LDM ore, looking for investors...if ALL the data were out there in the public domain, somebody would inevitably use it to scam people...Take care, Jim

EDIT: Nice link, lots of pics of gold in all types of minerals...there were some weird looking ones for sure.

 

[sailaway]

I have seen in person some of the gold myself. I have shook the hand of the owner of the matchbox, been properly introduced, and would feel comfortable enough to give ore directly to them. I have always wanted to find some clear crystals as the link shows.

 

[Doc4261]

If that is true, Why go up to Squaw. to point east unless it was on Malapais or wouldn't he just follow LaBarge to said location?

 

[Cubfan64]

If that is true, Why go up to Squaw. to point east unless it was on Malapais or wouldn't he just follow LaBarge to said location?

Once at the top of Squaw Canyon pointing east leads towards Peter's Mesa and beyond does it not? I can be directionally challenged but isn't Malapais to the N/NW of the top of Squaw Canyon?

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Once at the top of Squaw Canyon pointing east leads towards Peter's Mesa and beyond does it not? I can be directionally challenged but isn't Malapais to the N/NW of the top of Squaw Canyon?

Cubfan64, ..... When Apache Jack was atop Squaw canyon near Malapais and pointed east he would be pointing across the head of Pistol canyon to Peters Mesa. Beyond Peters Mesa to the east would be Peters Canyon and the West side of Tortilla mountain. I do not believe Apache Jack meant anyplace beyond Pistol canyon and Peters Mesa.

 

[Cubfan64]

Cubfan64, ..... When Apache Jack was atop Squaw canyon near Malapais and pointed east he would be pointing across the head of Pistol canyon to Peters Mesa. Beyond Peters Mesa to the east would be Peters Canyon and the West side of Tortilla mountain. I do not believe Apache Jack meant anyplace beyond Pistol canyon and Peters Mesa.

Understood - I was just confused because Doc seemed to be implying that standing at the top of Squaw Canyon pointing east meant pointing at Malapais. Maybe I just misunderstood him.