DHS Purchases 21.6 Million More Rounds of Ammunition

Picker,Feeble point was meant to say , nothing confirmed. Other than order(s). Amount being disputed from what is available for info.
Were i required to carry as a job requirement practice would be a given. Again how to confirm but saw some claims of around 40,000 rnds ball ammo also ordered.
 

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Plain jane hollow point in cold clime can load up with fiber as opposed to a "filled"hollow point. Did not see a brand or type on orders.
 

Treasure_Hunter said:
Any one that knows anything about guns knows you do not use hollow point for target training, the cost per bullet is a lot higher.... You can use FMJ get the same quality of training and save a fortune in cost per bullet...... I carry hollow points in my pistols only for protection, when I target practice I remove them and use FMJ...

So what you are saying is that YOU use hollow point for your personal protection, but that members of federal agencies that put themselves in harms way should not?

You also are making the point that it is unlikely the government is using hollow points for target practice because they would use cheaper ammo to save money. This is the same gov buying the $100 hammer and $1000 toilet seat. I admire your logical conclusion but you are basing it on the fact that the US gov gives a rats behind about saving money. Are you kidding me, what planet have you been living on!!!

But in the end at least we can all ***** about the gov wasting our tax money by target shooting with expensive ammo. I'm totally up for that.

Be thankful they are not ordering solid gold gem encrusted ammunition.
 

Legality

The Hague Convention of 1899, Declaration III, prohibited the use in international warfare of bullets that easily expand or flatten in the body. This is often incorrectly believed to be prohibited in the Geneva Conventions, but it significantly predates those conventions, and is in fact a continuance of the St. Petersburg Declaration of 1868, which banned exploding projectiles of less than 400 grams, as well as weapons designed to aggravate injured soldiers or make their death inevitable. NATO members do not use small arms ammunition that is prohibited by the Hague Convention.

Despite the ban on military use, hollow-point bullets are one of the most common types of civilian and police ammunition, due largely to the reduced risk of bystanders being hit by over-penetrating or ricocheted bullets, and the increased speed of incapacitation.
 

Any one that knows anything about guns knows you do not use hollow point for target training, the cost per bullet is a lot higher.... You can use FMJ get the same quality of training and save a fortune in cost per bullet...... I carry hollow points in my pistols only for protection, when I target practice I remove them and use FMJ...

Your statement is logical ,to bad one side of the isle does not have the ability to understand that.:dontknow:
 

onfire said:
Your statement is logical ,to bad one side of the isle does not have the ability to understand that.:dontknow:

If its one thing we can count on our government to do and that's find the most expensive way to do something.
 

Debunked: DHS orders 450 million .40 caliber bullets for use in America
Typical usage:


Bunk from external source:

Your Department of Homeland Security just ordered 450 MILLION of these .40 Caliber bullets for use here in America. They're all "Hollow-points" which are designed to maximize damage to the human body... a body like yours...or that of your child... AWAY YET?


Firstly, US law enforcement have ALWAYS use hollow-point bullets. They use them specifically for A) Stopping power, and B) to minimize collateral damage. Regular bullets pass through the body leaving a relatively small hole, and do not immediately disable an attacker. They also don't slow down very much, and also similarly pass through walls, and so are much more likely to hit someone else.

But the key thing here is the numbers. The suggestion being that this is an unusually large number of bullets. The number comes from the company that was awarded a contract:

http://atk.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=25280&item=124123
Content from external source:

ATK Secures .40 Caliber Ammunition Contract with Department of Homeland Security, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (DHS, ICE)

ATK WINS FIVE-YEAR, INDEFINITE DELIVERY/INDEFINITE QUANTITY CONTRACT FOR .40 CALIBER AMMUNITION FROM DHS, ICE

ADDITIONAL .40 CALIBER AMMUNITION CONTRACT WITH 450 MILLION ROUND POTENTIAL DEMONSTRATES ATK'S LEADERSHIP IN AMMUNITION MANUFACTURING

Mar 12, 2012
ANOKA, Minn., March 12, 2012 /PRNewswire/ -- ATK (NYSE: ATK) announced that it is being awarded an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) agreement from the Department of Homeland Security, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (DHS, ICE) for .40 caliber ammunition. This contract features a base of 12 months, includes four option years, and will have a maximum volume of 450 million rounds.
ATK was the incumbent and won the contract with its HST bullet, which has proven itself in the field. The special hollow point effectively passes through a variety of barriers and holds its jacket in the toughest conditions. HST is engineered for 100-percent weight retention, limits collateral damage, and avoids over-penetration.
"We are proud to extend our track record as the prime supplier of .40 caliber duty ammunition for DHS, ICE," said Ron Johnson, President of ATK's Security and Sporting group. "The HST is a proven design that will continue to serve those who keep our borders safe."
ATK will produce the ammunition at the Federal Cartridge Company facility in Anoka, Minn. Deliveries are expected to begin in June.


So the first thing to notice here is that it's not an order for 450 million bullets. It's a contract to supply, with a MAXIMUM volume of 450 million rounds over FIVE YEARS.

So really it's a contract to supply up to 90 million bullets a year.

It's also not just the DHS. It's the DHS and the Immigration and Customs Enforcement.

But the thing that this hoax ignores is that the vast majority of rounds fired are NOT fired at people. They are fired during training and practice. A DHS officer going through basic firearms training will fire over a thousand rounds. Officers are also required to qualify with their weapon every year accounting for a few hundred rounds, and will often go though additional firearms training programs, each of which can use over a thousand rounds.

Here's a DHS slide on just some of their ammunition usage:



See also:

http://www.politifact.com/texas/stat...rchasing-many/
Content from external source:

Finally, we talked through the information provided by Homeland Security with Magers who said he believes the arranged-for rounds could be used by domestic law enforcement officers on duty, in training and in keeping their skills up. "Not only does every officer carry ammunition on their body and in close proximity, but every so often ... they are required to go out and qualify with that weapon. Any one officer is going to account for a lot of rounds in a year," Magers said. Also, he said, rounds get cycled out as officers ensure their equipment is ready when needed.

"On its face, the type of ammunition and the amount of ammunition over a five-year period of time doesn’t sound extraordinarily excessive," Magers said.


[UPDATE - Government confirms it's mostly for training]
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013...-many-bullets/
Content from external source:

Federal solicitations to buy the bullets are known as "strategic sourcing contracts," which help the government get a low price for a big purchase, says Peggy Dixon, spokeswoman for the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco, Ga . The training center and others like it run by the Homeland Security Department use as many as 15 million rounds every year, mostly on shooting ranges and in training exercises. Dixon said one of the contracts would allow Homeland Security to buy up to 750 million rounds of ammunition over the next five years for its training facilities. The rounds are used for basic and advanced law enforcement training for federal law enforcement agencies under the department's umbrella. The facilities also offer firearms training to tens of thousands of federal law enforcement officers. More than 90 federal agencies and 70,000 agents and officers used the department's training center last year.
 

onfire said:
Your statement is logical ,to bad one side of the isle does not have the ability to understand that.:dontknow:


As any serious gun owners knows In target shooting, hollow points are used for greater accuracy and reduction of smoke, fouling, and lead vapour exposure, as hollow point bullets have an enclosed base while traditional bullets have an exposed lead base.

And ALL federal agencies along with many police forces PRACTICE with the exact same type of round that they carry and use.

Best
 

Why is atk involved instead of a direct order from federal?.
In regards to bullets,copper jacketed(fmj or semi jacketed ) are not exposed at base and cheaper than hydrashock. Granted if money no object(as you have hinted at)then stock and practice with hollow points. The hst is a tactical bullet and the nonclogging type.
 

releventchair said:
Why is atk involved instead of a direct order from federal?.
In regards to bullets,copper jacketed(fmj or semi jacketed ) are not exposed at base and cheaper than hydrashock. Granted if money no object(as you have hinted at)then stock and practice with hollow points. The hst is a tactical bullet and the nonclogging type.

We are talking the gov, money is no object. You don't carry a sig but practice with a 1911. These are federal employees that will be in harms way they do not practice with a diff gun and round than they carry. They never have. This is common knowledge and nothing new or strange.

AtK is the manufacturer of the ammo. They are the ones who directly respond to the gov's bid and order. The process is described above. This was so secretive they even put out a press release on the order. ATK is actually a public company - alliant tech systems so you have full access to there financials and can even buy stock in them if you want.
 

We are talking the gov, money is no object. You don't carry a sig but practice with a 1911. These are federal employees that will be in harms way they do not practice with a diff gun and round than they carry. They never have. This is common knowledge and nothing new or strange.

AtK is the manufacturer of the ammo. They are the ones who directly respond to the gov's bid and order. The process is described above. This was so secretive they even put out a press release on the order. ATK is actually a public company - alliant tech systems so you have full access to there financials and can even buy stock in them if you want.

Seeing as you are the expert in that area. Would you recommend we buy stock in their company?
 

You don't carry a sig but practice with a 1911. These are federal employees that will be in harms way they do not practice with a diff gun and round than they carry.

My brothers duty side arm is a Sig .357 automag.He trains and goes to qualifying using the same ammo that he carries when on duty which if full metal jacket hardball.
 

We are talking the gov, money is no object. You don't carry a sig but practice with a 1911. These are federal employees that will be in harms way they do not practice with a diff gun and round than they carry. They never have. This is common knowledge and nothing new or strange.

AtK is the manufacturer of the ammo. They are the ones who directly respond to the gov's bid and order. The process is described above. This was so secretive they even put out a press release on the order. ATK is actually a public company - alliant tech systems so you have full access to there financials and can even buy stock in them if you want.

O.k.. federal (and cci)is a subsidiary of atk. I had them as two different entities.
 

Red James cash said:
My brothers duty side arm is a Sig .357 automag.He trains and goes to qualifying using the same ammo that he carries when on duty which if full metal jacket hardball.

That's right it fine for a casual shooter to use diff ammo. A prof shooter always trains on the same gun/ammo as they carry. No matter of cost. Saving a little on ammo not worth one of our brave folks lives who put themselves in has way.
 

releventchair said:
O.k.. federal (and cci)is a subsidiary of atk. I had them as two different entities.

That right. A little confusing as its called federal. When folks just go to the source instead of looking at third hand sources written with a clear political agenda in mind it really doesn't look all that strange - because its not. As I always say the TRUTH is always nonpartisan.
 

Red James cash said:
What brave folks are those?

Armed federal employees putting themselves in harms way.
 

In my opinion the best thing to do is just get the facts and then base a conclusion on those facts. Don't forget that under bush the dhs gobbled up over twenty federal agencies. I believe even the coast guard is now part of dhs. When looking at a single datapoint I always try and put that datapoint into a bigger context to understand its importance.
I can tell you that I worked for a branch that DHS "gobbled up",we used firearms every day,received special training from the military,special training on Emergency catastrophy(including reaction to Martial Law)when deadly force ,could,or could not be used etc)and you know what?They alotted us $100 per year for ammo.....didnt get ya very far...now I think They give $200 in that particular branch but,so why are they buying all this?Its not trickling down
 

You mean DHS,TSA,IRS,Social Security Admin and all the other agencies that the hollow points are destined for.Harms way of what,you must mean the patsies who the FBI set up as being terrorist and then swoop in and make an arrest like they did something special.When has DHS or the TSA,Social Security Admin or the IRS captured any terrorists?As far as I know,never.
 

You mean DHS,TSA,IRS,Social Security Admin and all the other agencies that the hollow points are destined for.Harms way of what,you must mean the patsies who the FBI set up as being terrorist and then swoop in and make an arrest like they did something special.When has DHS or the TSA,Social Security Admin or the IRS captured any terrorists?As far as I know,never.
They sure captured a lot of our money...
 

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