Dagger - Need ID - Please!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[TreasureTales]

Here are some photos of a dagger I dug up about 3 years ago. I know it's a DAGGER, but I don't know who made it, where, and when? I took it to a couple of gun/knive shows and received conflicting information from each guy who looked at it. I've tried to find one like it on the internet, but without success. I'm hoping my fellow TNet members can help answer my questions.

(I just bought a new digital camera today so I could post pix on TNet because seeing everybody else post pix but not being able to do it myself was very frustrating!!!! It's an early Christmas present to myself.)

Overall length is 10 3/4 inches The blade is iron. All the other pieces are bronze.

PHOTOS DELETED DUE TO NEW RULES FOR TREASURENET. TREASURENET REQUESTS NO COPYRIGHTED MATERIALS BE POSTED, MY MATERIAL IS MINE AND SHALL REMAIN MINE, HENCE THE DELETIONS. MY APOLOGIES TO THOSE WHO WOULD LIKE TO SEE PHOTOS OF THIS INTERESTING AND OLD DAGGER, BUT MY PROPERTY (PHOTOS, STORIES, ETC.) SHALL REMAIN UNDER MY CONTROL.

 

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[TreasureTales]

Yes, I do. Even the doorknob can be screwed in far enough to conceal the threads, it's adjustable to accommodate varying door and lock thicknesses, and it's not a highly crafted piece such as your dagger. The sharper shoulders on the center section of the shaft engage the lock mechanism.

The quality of the eagle's head shows attention to detail, so hidden threads would not surprise me, and the corrosion makes it impossible to tell, at least in the photo. Again, in the photo, the sleeve does not appear too thin to me, but you have the advantage of actually holding the object in your hand.

OK, for the sake of argument (although that's just a figure of speech, no argument here...just discussion as far as I'm concerned) let's say it does have threads. How old could it be then? I would think that such precision threading would be a product of modern machining. So that wouldn't coincide with the rest of the dagger, which appears to be at least 150 years old.

I'm guessing that mid 19th century would be well within the ballpark. I think Tinpan's comment was to distinguish it from much earlier objects.

I'm not too good on exact dates (and there really isn't one), but the industrial revolution began about the late 1700's; an important landmark happened when Eli Whitney invented the concept of interchangeable parts in the early 19th century.

Then it is the majority opinion that this dagger was quite possibly made somewhere around the middle of the 19th century. That's quite exciting since it would roughly coincide with California's biggest event...the Gold Rush. I'm definitely going to have a custom frame made for it and I'll hang it on the wall with a printout of this thread neatly stored on the reverse. COOL!!!!!

Thanks everybody. You all rock.

 

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[tinpan]

Greetings Tinpan and everyone,

Tinpan wrote:
Nor did any Mediterian empires sail round the Africa to Asia until much later in time.

Well heck Tinpan you are sure welcome to hold whatever view on this that you like, however if you are curious, check this out:
http://www.phoenicia.org/proutes.html

or this statement from Herodotus, Greek historian quote"
Libya is washed on all sides by the sea except where it joins Asia, as was first demonstrated, so far as our knowledge goes, by the Egyptian king Necho, who, after calling off the construction of the canal between the Nile and the Arabian gulf, sent out a fleet manned by a Phoenician crew with orders to sail west about and return to Egypt and the Mediterranean by way of the Straits of Gibraltar. The Phoenicians sailed from the Arabian gulf into the southern ocean, and every autumn put in at some convenient spot on the Libyan coast, sowed a patch of ground, and waited for next year's harvest. Then, having got in their grain, they put to sea again, and after two full years rounded the Pillars of Heracles in the course of the third, and returned to Egypt. These men made a statement which I do not myself believe, though others may, to the effect that as they sailed on a westerly course round the southern end of Libya, they had the sun on their right - to northward of them. This is how Libya was first discovered by sea.
(from Herodotus' The Histories, 4:42 )
http://www.livius.org/he-hg/herodotus/hist01.htm

Most historians do concede that Phoenicians circumnavigated Africa in the sixth century BC, and were traveling by sea to bring spices from such places as the Moluccas (check that out on a map - the only ancient source of cloves, which have been found in ancient Egyptian tombs).  The recent discoveries of Robert Ballard has fairly well proven that the ancient mariners were in fact using deep sea routes and NOT following coastlines (which any mariner can tell you is the MOST dangerous route, the safest and fastest routes are across the open oceans).  An ancient text known as the Periplus Erythraeum (1st century BC) describes sailing to India from east Africa across the open ocean, a distance greater than that from west Africa to South America. 

Anyway don't take my word for it, this is something I have put a lot of research into so read up for yourself, it really is interesting!  I don't think Roman ships were deliberately traveling to America - except for one expedition (recorded by Josephus and others) which only reached islands (probably Caribbean) not the mainland - however they were aware the Earth was spherical and studied Greek texts.  With Phoenicians (and Punic mariners) the voyages were deliberate, but small scale and sporadic.  Accidental crossings certainly must have happened - remember a Norse ship was blown to America by accident (but did not land, leaving that honor to Leif Erikson) and Pedro Cabral was blown across the Atlantic to accidentally discover S. America.   In fact both Diodorus and Aristotle state that Carthaginians discovered America by accident, when ships were blown across the Atlantic by storms, while founding colonies on the coast of Africa - the very same area where both Cabral and French captain Jean Cousin made un-intended crossings of the Atlantic.  Chinese junks have been blown all the way across the Pacific to make landfall in America too! 

Good luck and good hunting,
Oroblanco

hi all  Necho 11 started the "Wadi Tumhat" Canal but never finished it.The canal was finished by Daruis the great a hundred years later.he was not Phoenician or Egyptian

The true Phoenician Empire or BANI KAN'AN (CHILDREN OF CANAAN) lasted from 1200bc-900bc.The Phoenician colonies of North africa had too much Greek and Egyptian influence on their culture to be called Phoenician.Its known fact that the term Phoenicain has a phontic similarity to the greek word "phoenica" which relates to the cultures that produced a crimsom dye that was used in the these time spans.Thus the use of the term Phoeician by the greeks for sometime after.

Herodotus Writing on the the event of Necho 11 sending a ship around Africa was reported only.Necho 11 was only the ruler for 6 years.Also in translation of ancient  manuscipts what the Red Sea was called and what the Medditerrian Sea called, at times where called the same. .So based on what sources of imfo i have to say the Phoenicains{true} didn,t sail around Africa.Herodotus Writings were written over a hundred and what years after the fact and only based on a report.Seems he didn,t know that the True Phoenicain Empire ended in 900bc.

With all these civillizations from before 1500 a.d, ships been found off the American Coast line on both the east and west side.Seems strange that the continent of Australia sits solely in the way of the Indian Ocean on the west side and the Pacific on the east, yet not many ships from any culture or country from Asia, East Africa, China before 1500 ad have ever  been found.



                                                   tinpan                                       

 

[Alchemy]

Alchemy wrote:
being that I hold a Carthaginian Punic Tridrachm coin, professed to have been found in NY.
I was elated, until I found out it’s a forgery from the early 1800’s

I know this is off-topic, but would you mind posting a couple photos of your coin? I collect Punic coins, would love to see a forgery - there are not a lot of forgeries of Punic coins in existence. (They are starting to appear though, watch out on Ebay and other online auctions!)
Oroblanco

Be ready to be dazzled!
I'll PM you with a picture.
I'm going to be listing it on eBay after XMas/NewYears

Alchemy, thanks for the suggestions. I live in a small town, far from a major museum. I guess I can try to send emails with photos to various musuems to see if any of them are interested in looking at it.

Thought you might like to know what the eBay seller had to say when I sent him a message asking how he determined the approximate date of his eagle head dagger, eBay item #190063141882 (made from a a sword, he says). He said, "I have been in militaria for 40 years and have many eagle head swords. they all seem to come from the 17 or 1800's/thanks jpk" So either you and he agree on the possible age of his dagger and mine, or you and jpk are the same person. LOL

Thanks for all the great help.

LOL...well, I can honestly say he and I aren't the same...though as they say, great minds!
Like I said before, I've been into Roman daggers for some years now...about 4, so he has some 36 years on me

I used to haunt eBay looking at all daggers, then research all the net for ancient daggers (one can't help it when trying to learn everything they can about a topic and are OCD = obsessive compulsive disorder...lol) I started digging up artifacts when I was about 11 years old and obsessing over them

I also had an antique business and shop for over 9 years and brought alot of things to our museum in MN, I worked with many of the members and staff. Doesn't make me an expert on anything, just made me know how better to intuit (trust my gut) and do research.

Confirmation came from my friend in France too...it was agreed, c.a. mid to late 1700's to early 1800's
(He restores old buildings there...churches, etc...)

 

[TreasureTales]

Confirmation came from my friend in France too...it was agreed, c.a. mid to late 1700's to early 1800's
(He restores old buildings there...churches, etc...)

AMAZING!!!!! GREAT INFORMATION!!!! THANK YOU SO MUCH!!!!! WOOOOOHOOOOOOOOO

 

[Alchemy]

I would still send physical pictures (via snail mail) to museums with as much detailed information as you can. This way they’ll send you back any information in “physical” form so you can retain it for whatever purpose (Laminate it and frame it with your dagger for an example)

Also, although there are several who agree, I’m sure you’ll find as many who disagree…

Having an authorities word means far more than anything or what anyone else says.
I’ve had my run ins or disagreements with some so called authorities on items as though….but, most everyone believes them over anything else, so their opinion and or authentication is still very valuable.

It’s kind of like going to a Dr and having them diagnose someone with a problem…I say get several more opinions before you have the surgery.

 

[TreasureTales]

Yep, you're absolutely correct. Just as at the knife shows where each guy had a different idea regarding the age of this dagger, the so-called acedemic and antiquities experts are sure to have different opinions as well. So be it.

Interestingly, one of my treasure hunting buddies found a dagger in Lake County, CA. It's a rural county (growing fast now) that had been thought to be on the Spanish explorers' route in northern California. Little physical proof existed. Then my friend found the dagger. Somebody saw it and exclaimed that it was Spanish and dated around the 1750s. The person who saw the dagger was a confirmed expert on old European military weapons. My friend donated the dagger to a local museum and it now resides there as "proof" that the Spanish did in fact venture into what is now known as Lake County, CA. I think his story is a great example of the GOOD that treasure hunters can do. As for my dagger, I think I'll go ahead and try to get it "authenticated" as far as date range. Then I'll admire it for a while longer and ultimately donate it to the state museum or a museum in the area in which I found it. This way I'll have the satisfaction of savoring the "glory" a little while longer and also the gratification of making a donation. Around here, anything older than this dagger is going to be hard to top. but I'll keep trying!!!!!

 

[tinpan]

Hi all,The secret to the Sword[dagger] is not in it's phyical appearance .The metalbolic structure of the iron of the blade will detemine the type of steel ,where it came from and what temperature the dagger was made at.

I may opinion the blade was made a temperature that was regulated by the the sword smith so to harden it.This heating of steel would have changes the metalobic structure.This where the i,m puzzled.The handle shaft had been over fabricated.the shaft has had 3 shape major shape changes as its thichness reduces to the end .This means that the whole item was reheated numerous times after the the blade was forged.This reheating would have altered the metalic structure of the blade as well.This is not a common practise by any blacksmith or sword maker.The last inch of the shaft is round looking or square,cannot tell.But both can in deed be threaded.Also the complexity of the whole handle set up is no same as sword and daggers of before 1850.I would not just rely of a physical i.d.Take to a metallurgist, they may give you the answer you seek.Good luck

tinpan