Crispin vs. fire nugget (nitric Acid)

[Crispin]

You make the call: I did some things out of order but will clarify. I wrote controls because I thought they might be Aluminum but some were not. Aluminum and iron dissolve in nitric acid.


metal blob pendant:


metal eagle:


metal nut ring:


metal found in Bahamas, thought to be a cob:


unknown metal blob that kicked everything off:


1/2 reales found together:


.999silver that came with test kit, test right of it, turned dark red:


Ring stamped sterling, test to the right of ring:


Iron completely dissolved:


So there you have it folks. What I got on my hands is not Aluminum, some degree of silver in it. Of note, I tested a ring I thought was gold and it completely dissolved . Passed silver test and failed gold. Keep it mind I found most of these things in the same spot. Fire on a spanish ship is my guess...

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

Could you post a photo of the test solution bottle that you are using?

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

I agree beach or inland find doesn't really mean much. The important point I was trying to make is Peg leg found gold with the cross still visible.

 

[Crispin]

 

[Crispin]

Got the PM, address sent, sorry were gonna have to wait for a bit to get some answers. What exactly is it you would like to know, so I can pass the info on?

I will send the samples through West Florida Investigative Services to make things official. I will cover all costs.

 

[releventchair]

Perhaps the small silver items are not melted shipwreck reales, but along the same lines of what PegLeg found. (He very accurately predicted the big gold price jump too, I should have followed his advice)

I'll have to see if the Calusa or Timucua had the same practice.

Crispin, remember the small pieces of metal on a string? Did you drop acid on one of them?

I don't know the credibility of the author but he suggests gold from the Spanish, from wrecks, going through multiple hands and worked by natives. Silver would not be too great a stretch.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=JVoDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6295,5684527&hl=en

And another article.
"Anyway, relations between the Indians and the Spanish went from bad to worse as time passed, although it was not always predictable. There were many mixed stories. In 1565, Pedro Menendez on his first trip rescued Spanish survivors who had lived with the Calusa for 20 years. They had survived the supposedly one-a-year sacrifices to the gods. Hernando de Soto, in 1539, found Juan Ortiz near Tampa. Ortiz had been allowed to live by the intercession of Tocobagan Chief Ucita's daughter and had even been traded among tribes. (This was 68 years before the John Smith-Pocahontas event at Jamestown.) On the east coast of Florida, a silversmith was allegedly spared to fashion silver articles for his captors from salvaged shipwrecks. "
(From)
http://www.keyshistory.org/histindians.html

Ya lots of association with shipwreck metals.
Another article suggests casting as well as other workings.
https://books.google.com/books?id=-...sa indians reworking shipwreck silver&f=false

 

[G.I.B.]

There are going to be some great theories developed from this.

Very interesting indeed.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I don't know the credibility of the author but he suggests gold from the Spanish, from wrecks, going through multiple hands and worked by natives. Silver would not be too great a stretch.

releventchair, I was the one that first suggested the re-working of Spanish silver by natives. Yes that is a known fact. But that doesnt mean every melted blob found on the beach is Spanish silver re-worked by Indians. We need to have the metals tested and I am studying this now.

But thanks for posting. I will read your links.

 

[Crispin]

I don't know the credibility of the author but he suggests gold from the Spanish, from wrecks, going through multiple hands and worked by natives. Silver would not be too great a stretch.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=JVoDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6295,5684527&hl=en

And another article.
"Anyway, relations between the Indians and the Spanish went from bad to worse as time passed, although it was not always predictable. There were many mixed stories. In 1565, Pedro Menendez on his first trip rescued Spanish survivors who had lived with the Calusa for 20 years. They had survived the supposedly one-a-year sacrifices to the gods. Hernando de Soto, in 1539, found Juan Ortiz near Tampa. Ortiz had been allowed to live by the intercession of Tocobagan Chief Ucita's daughter and had even been traded among tribes. (This was 68 years before the John Smith-Pocahontas event at Jamestown.) On the east coast of Florida, a silversmith was allegedly spared to fashion silver articles for his captors from salvaged shipwrecks. "
(From)
History Of the Historic Indians

Ya lots of association with shipwreck metals.
Another article suggests casting as well as other workings.
https://books.google.com/books?id=-...sa indians reworking shipwreck silver&f=false

RC! You gone done and dun gone dun it. I read your post on animals and something else clicked in my head. I found this piece in the the same area three years ago. I just thought it was a cool looking turtle. Turned bright red on testing. Did the Indians make it? Now I have to rack my brain to remember what else I've found at this site over the years...

 

[releventchair]

We had pewter "trade silver" turtles much the same at shoots. Cheap repro's of original silver ones.
This pic is a pin from Dixie gun works but the ones we wore had holes to string them on.

 

[releventchair]

releventchair, I was the one that first suggested the re-working of Spanish silver by natives. Yes that is a known fact. But that doesnt mean every melted blob found on the beach is Spanish silver re-worked by Indians. We need to have the metals tested and I am studying this now.

But thanks for posting. I will read your links.

Hey you snake wrestler, Desoto might have been first to suggest reworked silver.
Testing ,if results of blob tests show decent Ag, does that indicate it's source? Or you mean if samples are silver that your testing source will disclose it's original origin?
I'm just lookin for articles of casting or melting silver by natives, without wanting to know exact context of samples of O.P.. Following your's and G.I.B.'s mention of natives.
Spaniards melted it ,and who knows who else.
Other ,especially lower melt point metals likely were too and blobs are going to have been of many types over time, but not with the same appeal to natives. Or latecomers.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

RC! You gone done and dun gone dun it. I read your post on animals and something else clicked in my head. I found this piece in the the same area three years ago. I just thought it was a cool looking turtle. Turned bright red on testing. Did the Indians make it? Now I have to rack my brain to remember what else I've found at this site over the years...

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Its hard to see the color in your pictures. Please dont take this the wrong way, but why didnt your items show a bright red yesterday?

Calm down. Thanks for posting the pictures. It looks as if you only have one silver test solution. If its the Schwerter's Testing Solution, a diluted Nitric Acid and Potassium Dichromate mix, and it shows red after one minute, then YES it is silver. But what I dont understand is the creamy white on your chart. My charts do not show this. My charts go from brilliant red to reddish brown to brown.

If Fowledup has access to a electron-mass spectroscopy machine, by all means send him a sample for a complete analysis of the metal composition. This will even help you date the item in question.

Im sorry I cannot be of much further help. I do not understand why the .925 on your silver chart says creamy white. I repeat, if your acid test now shows red after one minute, yes its silver.



Pure silver turns bright red
Silver (Stirling Silver 92.5%) turns dark red
Silver (80%) turns brown
Silver (50%) turns green

 

[Crispin]

Its hard to see the color in your pictures. Please dont take this the wrong way, but why didnt your items show a bright red yesterday?

Calm down. Thanks for posting the pictures. It looks as if you only have one silver test solution. If its the Schwerter's Testing Solution, a diluted Nitric Acid and Potassium Dichromate mix, and it shows red after one minute, then YES it is silver. But what I dont understand is the creamy white on your chart. My charts do not show this. My charts go from brilliant red to reddish brown to brown.

If Fowledup has access to a electron-mass spectroscopy machine, by all means send him a sample for a complete analysis of the metal composition. This will even help you date the item in question.

Im sorry I cannot be of much further help. I do not understand why your silver chart says creamy white. I repeat, if your acid test now shows red after one minute, yes its silver.

Well it has been over 15 years since I worked in the organic chemistry lab. I had to get the old neurons firing up. Like you said earlier, I don't think I was using enough material in the initial tests. I was afraid of damaging the pieces. I had a couple beers and went for broke tonight. Used much more material...caused more damage. I have been advised by West Florida Investigative Services to stop "dumping acid on things." I think this is good advice. I assure you they are experts and I am paying good money. We'll figure this one out. I may have some connections at my undergrad as well. I used to help run Mass Spec there. I'm going to take a look and see if any of my old pals are still around.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I'm sorry my internet is freezing up. I'm on my cell. No the acid test for silver does not indicate its source. I just thought it would be prudent to test for silver before making claims of burning Spanish galleons or ancient Indian artifacts. And you are experienced enough to know this releventchair. My comments are not directed at you. Its for Crispin and the readers.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

BTW I sell collectibles on eBay and clear photos are of the utmost importance when selling online. Are you sure you are using your close-up Macro lens setting Crispin.? It often looks like a tulip or flower icon.

For color clarity, the best lighting by far is natural daylight, even on a cloudy day. Set up a table outside with a dark colored tablecloth, remove any clutter, watch your shadow and you can have beautiful professional looking photos crispin. You can do it indoors but thats harder because you need to set up bright halogen lighting from different angles. Outside is much easier.

A white background will not work with auto focus cameras. It cannot properly adjust. Use a solid dark tablecloth. I use blue but green or red are fine.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Well it has been over 15 years since I worked in the organic chemistry lab. I had to get the old neurons firing up. Like you said earlier, I don't think I was using enough material in the initial tests. I was afraid of damaging the pieces. I had a couple beers and went for broke tonight. Used much more material...caused more damage. I have been advised by West Florida Investigative Services to stop "dumping acid on things." I think this is good advice. I assure you they are experts and I am paying good money. We'll figure this one out. I may have some connections at my undergrad as well. I used to help run Mass Spec there. I'm going to take a look and see if any of my old pals are still around.

Never put the acid smack dab in the middle of a suspected artifact. It would be better to use an inconspicuous part underneath. Shaving metal is also a bad idea. In your case, I dont think it matters as the beach items are already severely damaged.

 

[huntsman53]

This is my last post on any of your threads Crispin, as you wish. I found my old color chart. But like I said, you need a little experience testing metals with this acid solution. And its not always definitive with all metals, especially with all the alloys, zincs and pot metals. The first color is on the metal after one minute (A). The second color is after wiping it off (B). So I do see a "greyish white" color listed on the chart for pure silver but only after wiping. It should be a bright red after one minute before wiping. Anyway Im out. I have more important and certainly more enjoyable things to do. Take care and good luck on the beaches. No hard feelings on my end. Some other members may appreciate this color chart.

Its just as I remembered. Lead, Tin and Aluminum are all Yellow. Pure silver is bright beautiful Red.

apply a drop of solution- watch for color reaction.

A) Wait one minute, check the color of the solution on the unknown metal
`~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
(A after one minute ) ---------- ---------(B after wiping)

Brass--Dark Brown --------------------------light brown
Copper--Brown--------------------------------cleaned copper
Gold--None-------------------------------------none
Nickel--Blue------------------------------------scarcely any
Lead--Yellow----------------------------------leaden
Tin--Yellow------------------------------------dark
Silver(pure)--Bright Red-------------------grayish white
Silver .925--Dark Red----------------------dark brown
Silver .800--Brown-------------------------dark brown
Silver .500--Green--------------------------dark brown
Palladium--None-----------------------------non
Platinum--Vandyke brown---------------none
Iron --various -------------------------------black
Zinc --light chocolate---------------------steel grey
Aluminum---Yellow ---------------------no stain

B) then wipe the solution off and look at he spot left on the metal.


I have seen some different variations of this chart. But as far as I know, all the hi percentage silver turns red reddish-brown or brown. I dont know how you test low percentage silver. When I was in the A/C business, I used 5, 10, and 15 percent silver solder. And Im sure melted blobs of this solder can be found. I dont know how to test for it as the test solution will be reacting to the base metal..

I cant imagine that a fire on board a Spanish galleon would mix metals such as copper, brass and lead with the silver usually kept in locked chests well below deck. And wood and sand certainly wont alloy with melted silver. They didnt have aluminum, zinc or pot metal alloys. I cant remember any melted Reales ever found other than those found by Pegleg that were melted by the Ais Indians. I have pictures on my old tower if anyone wants to see the melted and hammered Spanish doubloons.

My best suggestion and my last is to post your melted Reales on the Shipwreck forum or in Spanish Cobs.. They are far more experienced than I. Actually I may post the question myself. Im always willing and wanting to learn. http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/spanish-cobs/468894-melted-spanish-reales.html

I want to point out an important point when it comes to testing fire melted Silver coins that are less than pure and contain Copper. When a Silver coin containing Copper in it is melted by fire, most often the Copper is brought more to the surface of the coin or in this case the blob. Therefore, when testing for Silver and/or it's purity, the test is almost always skewed by the Copper being present.


Frank

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Thanks huntsman53. A treasure hunters mind is very persuasive. Its like a fever. Gold fever...and there is no known cure. We often see things that are not really there.


However I would like to take this time to post one of the Calusa medallions I spoke of worn by chiefs that started out as gold doubloons, that were salvaged from Spanish shipwrecks, pounded and re-fabricated by ancient Indians. This particular one was found in Chokoloskee. Im also re-posting one of Peglegs doubloons.

 

[huntsman53]

I don't know the credibility of the author but he suggests gold from the Spanish, from wrecks, going through multiple hands and worked by natives. Silver would not be too great a stretch.

https://news.google.com/newspapers?...AIBAJ&sjid=JVoDAAAAIBAJ&pg=6295,5684527&hl=en

And another article.
"Anyway, relations between the Indians and the Spanish went from bad to worse as time passed, although it was not always predictable. There were many mixed stories. In 1565, Pedro Menendez on his first trip rescued Spanish survivors who had lived with the Calusa for 20 years. They had survived the supposedly one-a-year sacrifices to the gods. Hernando de Soto, in 1539, found Juan Ortiz near Tampa. Ortiz had been allowed to live by the intercession of Tocobagan Chief Ucita's daughter and had even been traded among tribes. (This was 68 years before the John Smith-Pocahontas event at Jamestown.) On the east coast of Florida, a silversmith was allegedly spared to fashion silver articles for his captors from salvaged shipwrecks. "
(From)
History Of the Historic Indians

Ya lots of association with shipwreck metals.
Another article suggests casting as well as other workings.
https://books.google.com/books?id=-...sa indians reworking shipwreck silver&f=false

I believe it was in 1983 that my friend Roy found half of a Silver Disk in the debris of burial mounds on Stock Island that had been dug out and robbed by many folks over many years. The half of the Silver Disk was one part of a larger Silver Disk that was made by Keys Indians by melting Spanish Silver coins and/or Silver bars, pouring it into a bowl made in the sand on a beach with a stick in the middle which made a hole in the middle when done and the Silver cooled/hardened. This Silver Disk would have been worn by a Chief or other very important person in the tribe. It was evident from Roy's find, that the whole Silver Disk was too heavy for a person to wear as adornment as the half Roy found weighed several pounds and was probably the reason the disk was cut in half. I went to the Burial Mound site with Roy to help him in an attempt to find the other half of the Silver Disk. We did not find the other half of the Silver Disk but we found where someone had excavated under the roots of a tree and had removed a Treasure Chest only a day or two prior to us being there. The Treasure Chest must have been loaded to the brim with Silver, Gold and probably many pieces of Jewelry and other valuables as the drag marks were very deep in the shell debris from the burial mounds.

Interesting articles on Florida's Indian Tribes and thanks for the links!


Frank

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

What beach did you find these on crispin? Anything found on the Treasure Coast has a chance to be something Spanish. Fort Lauderdale or Miami? slim chance. This is still the best site to keep up with metal detecting the Treasure Coast. The Treasure Beaches Report brought to you from Florida's Treasure Coast.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Well to review the tests I have run:
1. Passed muriatic acid test.
2. Passed oxidation reduction test.
3. Passed bleach test.
4. Passed nitric acid test

The only test I know of left to run is electron spectrospcopy. I still know how to read the results; however, I don't have a electron-mass spectrospcopy machine available to me. If anybody works in an academic Organic chemistry lab and does have access I would be happy to send samples off to be run. That is the only way I know of to give a 100% definitive answer.

One last suggestion. Have you tried walking into a pawn shop and asking them? They may have more experience testing for silver.


It appears that some of your items are silver if they test as red but because you may not be familiar with the color charts of acid testing, you could get a second opinion.