Continuum

[Hal Croves]

Good info Pot Belly - also if you take a look throughout the whole map from Princeton you'll find various other rivers with similar symbols...

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The O has a line through it unlike the others,, but you are correct.
What about the R?
It looks as if it were drawn over something and I don't see another R written this way.
The reason I ask is the location.

If it were something other than a smudge, that would be in the area of Tortilla Flat.
It may be hopeful thinking, but The R is not drawn that way on somehiker’s map.

 

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[coazon de oro]

Hal, the quill just got something stuck to it, or got a split.

 

[sdcfia]

This type.....plus more at Gila Bend

And there are others that look like this structure at Paquime (Casas Grandes) with a cross and four dots.

That Paquime cross mound is aligned to the cardinal directions, but the pros aren't sure why - ceremonial or some other purpose? It's on the same longitude as the Chaco Canyon ruins, some of which are also precisely aligned to specific celestial observations.

Petroglyphs? Lots of explanations for lots of generations from lots of pros, lots of Natives. But when it all boils down, the carvers did their carving for reasons of their own at the time. The outlined equal-legged cross has had a number of definitions - the one that strikes me is "mark of possession" - but carved by whom and when? We just don't know. Many folks peg it as ancient observations of a celestial event, like a supernova. Sounds good, but it's not a proven argument either. We tend to accept what we want to hear.

That said, this well-known petroglyph found worldwide is now strongly believed to really be a celestial observation, not an anthropomorphic representation. Survivors of a cataclysmic solar plasma discharge recorded what they saw. Go figure. https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2016/04/28/anthony-peratt-3-stickman-on-stone/

 

[Hal Croves]

That Paquime cross mound is aligned to the cardinal directions, but the pros aren't sure why - ceremonial or some other purpose? It's on the same longitude as the Chaco Canyon ruins, some of which are also precisely aligned to specific celestial observations.

Petroglyphs? Lots of explanations for lots of generations from lots of pros, lots of Natives. But when it all boils down, the carvers did their carving for reasons of their own at the time. The outlined equal-legged cross has had a number of definitions - the one that strikes me is "mark of possession" - but carved by whom and when? We just don't know. Many folks peg it as ancient observations of a celestial event, like a supernova. Sounds good, but it's not a proven argument either. We tend to accept what we want to hear.

That said, this well-known petroglyph found worldwide is now strongly believed to really be a celestial observation, not an anthropomorphic representation. Survivors of a cataclysmic solar plasma discharge recorded what they saw. Go figure. https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2016/04/28/anthony-peratt-3-stickman-on-stone/

View attachment 1745541

Absolutely fascinating read.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal, the quill just got something stuck to it, or got a split.

Whatever that mark is under the R, it forms a squarish symbol.
90 degree bends in drawing/writing don’t happen by chance.

If you are correct, and you may be, what do the dots and cross represent on the attached?

 

[Hal Croves]

411
Ref. P (phosphate)
a.k.a 0
Mine Name “Miller”
Commodities - UNK (unknown)

Unfortunately, this map doesn’t cover the entire range.

 

[Cubfan64]

The O has a line through it unlike the others,, but you are correct.
What about the R?
It looks as if it were drawn over something and I don't see another R written this way.
The reason I ask is the location.

If it were something other than a smudge, that would be in the area of Tortilla Flat.
It may be hopeful thinking, but The R is not drawn that way on somehiker’s map.




View attachment 1745412View attachment 1745413

Hal - I don't know whether the R is just smudged or if indeed there is/was something written over there. I would agree that it's in the area of Tortilla Flat but with the map scale and inherent errors in drawing such a map it's hard to say where that really is.

I did find other areas in that general section of the map that have similar "smudges" - not sure whether it was a printing problem or if things were actually written over. They all seem to be in that general area of the map though. Once you get further down into Mexico the printing looks much clearer.

 

[markmar]

Esconolea's description of incursion of Apache lands to James Tevis, and their trip to the area, attached. Excerpt from "Arizona in the '50's" (1850's) by James H. Tevis, 1954.

View attachment 1745188

Nice story written by Tevis. The Montezuma City or otherwise the Enchanted City from Foxfire book, described with so beautiful words like is an image from a fairy tale. I have to admit how the description of the Enchanted City spot from the Foxfire is more close to the reality than this from Tevis.
Both landscapes like are described in these accounts don't exist, but are only author's fantasy, maybe to cover a deal of secrecy made with the persons who have shown them the place or have told them the story.
IMHO and like the Pima myth says, the Montezuma City is underground, composed of many tunnels and natural caves. Few ruins are out of the " city ", which are looking more like lookouts.

 

[markmar]

Another example of how the Montezuma City would look like inside, is described in Rosalle's letter at https://hubpages.com/education/The-Lost-Aztec-Treasure

 

[markmar]

And if you want to continue read on the same subject https://hubpages.com/travel/Treasure-of-the-Cursed-Superstition-Mountains

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal - I don't know whether the R is just smudged or if indeed there is/was something written over there. I would agree that it's in the area of Tortilla Flat but with the map scale and inherent errors in drawing such a map it's hard to say where that really is.

I did find other areas in that general section of the map that have similar "smudges" - not sure whether it was a printing problem or if things were actually written over. They all seem to be in that general area of the map though. Once you get further down into Mexico the printing looks much clearer.

View attachment 1745609View attachment 1745610View attachment 1745611View attachment 1745612View attachment 1745613

I am going to ask the curator at the PRINCETON Library for an opinion.
And look at your examples in ImageJ.

Here is one that supports my argument that the Tortilla Flat area was at least accessed, long before it became a stop on the Apache trail. 1876

 

[coazon de oro]

Whatever that mark is under the R, it forms a squarish symbol.
90 degree bends in drawing/writing don’t happen by chance.

If you are correct, and you may be, what do the dots and cross represent on the attached?


View attachment 1745578

View attachment 1745582

Howdy Hal,

Why would you ask me if the references tell you exactly what it is?

 

[somehiker]

That Paquime cross mound is aligned to the cardinal directions, but the pros aren't sure why - ceremonial or some other purpose? It's on the same longitude as the Chaco Canyon ruins, some of which are also precisely aligned to specific celestial observations.

Petroglyphs? Lots of explanations for lots of generations from lots of pros, lots of Natives. But when it all boils down, the carvers did their carving for reasons of their own at the time. The outlined equal-legged cross has had a number of definitions - the one that strikes me is "mark of possession" - but carved by whom and when? We just don't know. Many folks peg it as ancient observations of a celestial event, like a supernova. Sounds good, but it's not a proven argument either. We tend to accept what we want to hear.

That said, this well-known petroglyph found worldwide is now strongly believed to really be a celestial observation, not an anthropomorphic representation. Survivors of a cataclysmic solar plasma discharge recorded what they saw. Go figure. https://www.thunderbolts.info/wp/2016/04/28/anthony-peratt-3-stickman-on-stone/

View attachment 1745541

Prehispanic protest symbol......."Don't taze me bro !"
That's how the aliens got Travis Walton .
Or maybe "score cards" for knife throwing contests .

I agree on the ceremonial theory, since each of the "dot" platforms has a set of steps. I would think each platform would feature a costumed "actor" representing something, perhaps a diety type, who would play a part during a ceremony. Could have been related to the trader/merchant class and the N-S-E-W aspects of the extensive trade network which existed at the time when Paqime was at it's zenith as the hub in that wheel . And since trade was and is somewhat dependent on seasonal considerations, the celestial aspect may have been a factor in the layout of the structure as well.

 

[somehiker]

Howdy Hal,

Why would you ask me if the references tell you exactly what it is?

George Miller's mines.....SE of Tortilla Mtn.
Or perhaps the mines that Bilbrey had made claims on, and where he said he found the stone crosses.
Jim Hatt did a good write up on the Miller Mines awhile back....with photos etc.

 

[Hal Croves]

Howdy Hal,

Why would you ask me if the references tell you exactly what it is?

Perhaps I should have written that with more thought. I provided the key so you would know what those symbols were, but what they represent, as in Mine and Location name was the point of my question.

I haven’t been able to identify either and thought that you might.

 

[Hal Croves]

George Miller's mines.....SE of Tortilla Mtn.
Or perhaps the mines that Bilbrey had made claims on, and where he said he found the stone crosses.
Jim Hatt did a good write up on the Miller Mines awhile back....with photos etc.

Miller's two shafts and a tunnels don't match.
The Bilbrey mines I think are on the Southwest corner of Tortilla Mountain(?).
But the map dates to 1878.

I think that the two unidentified creeks are Cottonwood and Tortilla (because of its SE angle).
Note: if it is the Bilbrey mines on Tortilla Mountain, that creek below the symbols would have to be Peter's Canyon.

 

[Hal Croves]

Acequina - looks like the Tortilla Flat area (this is incorrect). 1865, thirteen years earlier that the Hinton Map.

Acequia is the closest that I could come to translating Acequina.

" Rivera explained that "acequia" refers not only to the physical trench in the ground, but also, and just as importantly, to the system of community self-governance. "You don't just have a ditch; you belong to an acequia," he explains, emphasizing the the word also means the co-op of farmers who share the water and govern their own use of it."

 

[somehiker]

Acequina - looks like the Tortilla Flat area. 1865, thirteen years earlier that the Hinton Map.

Acequia is the closest that I could come to translating Acequina.

" Rivera explained that "acequia" refers not only to the physical trench in the ground, but also, and just as importantly, to the system of community self-governance. "You don't just have a ditch; you belong to an acequia," he explains, emphasizing the the word also means the co-op of farmers who share the water and govern their own use of it."

View attachment 1745765

You mean like this.....

 

[Hal Croves]

You mean like this.....

Exactly, but that map doesn’t depict any canals upriver, beyond the Verde. What is clear is that there were/are two “Indian” trails that passed through the Superstitions. One running along the Salt and one cutting right through the center of the range.

If the translation is correct, there must have been some form of “community” (farming?) in the area near Tortilla Flats (this is incorrect) before 1865. But the word Acequina may mean something else.

Thank you Jim for pointing out my misreading of the location of Acequina.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hinton drew the map with “mines and locations” in the Superstitions.
He may mention the place in his book, but I haven’t found it.
This chapter gets extremely close to describing the Superstitions legends but it’s the Sierra Estrella.

[h=1]The Handbook to Arizona: Its Resources, History, Towns, Mines, Ruins, and Scenery. By Richard J. Hinton[/h]
Picturesque Arizona

“At Maricopa Wells there is an oblong isolated mountain range—known as the Sa-de-la-Estrella—one end of which shows a most beautiful and perfect profile of the old historic chief of the Aztecs, Montezuma—so recognized by the tribes throughout the country. It is on the southern spur of the range. The mountains are named the Montezuma Mountains from this fact. I have never been able to see profiles with any accuracy or readiness; but I must confess that this profile of a human face carved or hewn in this rock by some gigantic power will show itself readily to ninety-nine out of every one hundred people. But if accuracy in detail of a mountain is to govern the

[page 219]
name, then to my mind these would command the name of Washington. I for one, am less acquainted with the physical appearance of Montezuma than of Washington; and from that stand-point come to my decision. Here, as bold as life, between heaven and earth, stands the Father of our country But I must give up my prejudices. We are dealing with Aztec land now, as identified with our own. We have spoken of this profile as a ‘‘beautiful’’ profile. At the hour of one of Arizona's setting suns, it supports this appellation emphatically. Here, with its golden hair emblazoned with the fire of the setting sun, and the tinted nose of a dark shadowed blue, and with a more perfect light on his breast showing a continental ruffled shirt-front, Washington (Montezuma) faces the west in all the boldness of outline relief, and with a positive and admiring air that would seem to re-echo the words to all the world, ‘‘Westward the course of empire takes its way.’’The Indians have a tradition that the famous Montezuma is buried in this mountain, and that some day he will come forward to deliver and redeem his people. This superstition extends south, way into Mexico. Not a stone of this mountain will any of the Indians in the neighborhood touch upon any consideration. So far does this legend of this natural statuary extend that even in Mexico I was told, when there in '74,

[page 220]
that some fires which I saw kindled by the Indians, and over which I noticed some formal and solemn performance took place, was in anticipation of the coming of their great chief Montezuma down from the north, where he was resting in his happy hunting grounds. In some locations I understood, these fires were kept burning almost constantly at certain seasons or on certain occasions, to hasten or invoke his coming, evidently feeling their depression which has been a national calamity with them for time immemorial”