CLUES TO THE LOST DUTCMAN MINE

[Cubfan64]

Cubfan,
The ores tested against the known Dutchman ore were :
Mammoth ore
Black Queen ore
Vulture ore
Kochera ore
Camp ore

Only the camp ore from the interior of the Superstitions exhibited similar mineral and elements.

Kochera ore was somewhat near in a few minerals.

Mammoth, Black Queen and Vulture ores were no where near a match.

I remembered all but the Mammoth ore - thanks for refreshing my memory - sorry I was too lazy to look it up. It's been a long year already

 

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[Idahodutch]

Cubfan,
The ores tested against the known Dutchman ore were :
Mammoth ore
Black Queen ore
Vulture ore
Kochera ore
Camp ore

Only the camp ore from the interior of the Superstitions exhibited similar mineral and elements.

Kochera ore was somewhat near in a few minerals.

Mammoth, Black Queen and Vulture ores were no where near a match.

Matthew,
I don’t recall hearing about “camp ore”?
Is that something that you can elaborated on 🥹👍

Idahodutch 😁

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew,
I don’t recall hearing about “camp ore”?
Is that something that you can elaborated on 🥹👍

Idahodutch 😁

T.E.Glover used the name, "camp ore" in his book, The Golden Dream. It was Glover who arranged the ore comparisons at the Nevada school of Mines. The tests were not an assay, they were merely a non destructive comparison of minerals and elements found in the samples.
The camp ore came from the interior of the Superstition Mountains and was the only sample ore that had been previously assayed and compared to the Dutchman ore samples.

 

[Garytman]

Hola amigos,
Roadrunner I get the impression that you have not researched this too much, seems that you have only some parts of the story? I think if you did some more research on it, you would not feel quite so negative about the prospects.

First consider this - most of those whom have hunted this lost mine, have zero experience at prospecting and have been counting on the various "clues" or treasure maps to lead them to the mine, which a lot seem to expect to be a big open hole they can not miss. Even today, a lot of fellows can't tell a mine from a cave, and often mistake an empty prospect hole for the lost mine. Remember too that Waltz went to some effort to conceal the entrance to his mine, and covered up the spot where the vein is exposed further down the canyon. The entrance was "no bigger than a barrel" according to one who saw it, so this is not exactly a large thing to look for. Waltz put in desert ironwood logs, six feet in by one source, and then filled in the hole from there with rocks and dirt, so it is quite possible that a 100 year old cactus could be growing right on top of it today for that type of wood is remarkably resistant to rot. Anyway point is that a LOT of people have already walked right past it, almost certainly. It will not be easy to see, barring some earthquake (and Arizona does get a fair number of quakes) or perhaps a heavy rainfall will result in a landslide, uncovering either the mine or the vein below it.

Next - Waltz gave a set of directions to Dick Holmes the very night he was feverish and dying, and this version we see in the Holmes manuscript. To Julia and Reiney however, he gave the instructions over a much longer period of time, weeks or months, and they simply did not pay much attention when he was trying to tell them how to get to the mine. Even Waltz himself told Reinhard once, "Reiney you better listen! That mine is hard to find, even when you know where it is!" This statement indicates to me that the mine is not near any remarkable landmarks and is quite difficult to find, perhaps even so for Waltz himself. Anyway Waltz was certainly in sound mind prior to the last days of his life, and had been trying to tell his friends Julia and Reiney the correct directions, then later (according to Dick Holmes) tried to tell Holmes how to get there but was of course feverish, and dying, so those directions you find in the Holmes manuscript could be confused due to Waltz being feverish.

Julia Thomas was not really the type of person whom could go out in the desert to hunt for a lost mine; her first night spent in the desert, she climbed on top of a big rock and fired her gun at "rattlers" all around it, which was simply the rustling leaves. Reiney was not much better and enlisted the aid of his (real) father and brother, and they made another attempt, but to the disgust of Reiney's relatives, Reiney had a very muddled memory of what the directions were. They broke up but spent years hunting separately. If only Reiney had paid better attention, this lost mine might not even be known today as a lost mine.

Most of the folks whom have hunted for the Lost Dutchman since 1891, were laboring under one or more false ideas, like the funnel shaped pit for example, which was from the Ludy brothers story and not Waltz but got mixed in to the story. So these treasure hunters could have (and probably did) walk right past the actual mine while looking for that funnel shaped pit. I am fairly convinced that one did find it, Walt Gassler, but he died before being able to show anyone else the location. Inside his backpack was an ore sample that matched the Dutchman specimens, of which several still exist and as you surmise, are held by private parties but could possibly arrange a comparison by request. Dick Holmes had an assay done on Waltz's ore, and it came out very high in gold, and rather low in silver by comparison.

It takes a lot of research for any serious and successful treasure hunt, whether it is hunting the sunken ship Atocha like Mel Fisher did, or the Lost Dutchman gold mine. Just because many have failed is no proof that the mine is not still out there, waiting for someone with a bit of luck and hard work to find it. A great deal of 'chaff' has been thrown into this legend too, which makes the job that much harder. I hope that you won't give up on finding the Lost Dutchman without at least giving it a try.

Good luck and good hunting Roadrunner, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Thank you for this information, makes me want to go out treasure hunting more! From all of this information that I have just read, this treasure may be found by someone NOT looking for it. It will be more of an accidental find than anything else.

 

[Cubfan64]

Thank you for this information, makes me want to go out treasure hunting more! From all of this information that I have just read, this treasure may be found by someone NOT looking for it. It will be more of an accidental find than anything else.

You are NOT the only person to express that thought! Id say you can only find it by getting out there and looking for it, but over the years there have been plenty who firmly believe they've found it from behind their computer screens.

I'd ask you to show a picture of it if/when you find it, but truly successful treasure hunters likely want to keep as low a profile as possible

 

[Idahodutch]

Thank you for this information, makes me want to go out treasure hunting more! From all of this information that I have just read, this treasure may be found by someone NOT looking for it. It will be more of an accidental find than anything else.

Garytman,
From all my research, I’m convinced that waltz’s mine will not ever be found by accident. The story about how Waltz sealed up and covered his mine is very descriptive, and he spent an entire winter covering it and cleaning everything up.

Good luck 👍 😎
Idahodutch

 

[BlackLine]

After my trip in 2018 i noticed a white spot on a photo. I thought it could be a vein. I planed a new trip in 2022 to check this spot and found this. it wasn't a vein. it was shit or a painting. I believed more shit than a painting. today I checked this file again and now I'm unsure. What do you think about that?

 

[sdcfia]

View attachment 2154988
After my trip in 2018 i noticed a white spot on a photo. I thought it could be a vein. I planed a new trip in 2022 to check this spot and found this. it wasn't a vein. it was shit or a painting. I believed more shit than a painting. today I checked this file again and now I'm unsure. What do you think about that?

Looks like a protective bird roosting spot. Bird shit.

 

[Garytman]

Garytman,
From all my research, I’m convinced that waltz’s mine will not ever be found by accident. The story about how Waltz sealed up and covered his mine is very descriptive, and he spent an entire winter covering it and cleaning everything up.

Good luck 👍 😎
Idahodutch

You're probably right then, in that case it may not never be found, unless the ones looking for it are looking in the right area with the right equipment. Don't they have those ultra sound machines that can look in the earth. If you wheeled one of them around in the right area, maybe it would show a huge cavity underground. Those machines can even tell you the dimensions.

 

[SPARTANOC]

You're probably right then, in that case it may not never be found, unless the ones looking for it are looking in the right area with the right equipment. Don't they have those ultra sound machines that can look in the earth. If you wheeled one of them around in the right area, maybe it would show a huge cavity underground. Those machines can even tell you the dimensions.

Garytman

Hope you don't mind me jumping in on this conversation. With regards to the LDM and if it's possible to find; my quick answer would be, yes. I don't believe someone would easily find it by accident, though I've seen stranger occurrences in life. The crux of the matter is, if you use the right clues and eliminate areas of concern - there's a good chance of finding either the LDM or one of the Jesuit mines (and yes they are out there). I believe a smart man once said; "caches will probably be found before the LDM". I tend to lean towards this view. Finding a Mine, let alone the LDM, has it's challenges, but finding a cache of sorts - have better odds of being found whether that's accidental or intentional.

As for equipment - yes, the type of device you're trying to refer to, exists and is being used out there. This is a particular device that can penetrate deeper, picking up mineral-i zed material that may be grouped together underground. Now, that being said; a good metal detector (i.e., Minelab, Garret, etc.) can also be a good tool - as some of the models are well designed, being able to pinpoint certain minerals (i.e., gold, silver, artifacts, etc) specifically. Personally, I use a Minelab Equinox 800 - which seems to be a good middle-of-the-road device.

With all that's out there regarding the LDM, I am confident that; there will be that hunter who will achieve success, but it's going to take patience, diligent "homework" and a bit of Luck to gain that prize. One of the best things you can do, is keep an open mind about what others have to say, as many have searched for decades and have accumulated much knowledge/experience - which could be that one element of clues that brings you to the End-of-the-Rainbow.

So, let me welcome you to the HUNT and I wish you much luck out there, providing you take that step into the fray.

-SpartanOC

 

[Terry Soloman]

The entrance to the mine is now underwater, in Apache Lake.

 

[Garytman]

Garytman

Hope you don't mind me jumping in on this conversation. With regards to the LDM and if it's possible to find; my quick answer would be, yes. I don't believe someone would easily find it by accident, though I've seen stranger occurrences in life. The crux of the matter is, if you use the right clues and eliminate areas of concern - there's a good chance of finding either the LDM or one of the Jesuit mines (and yes they are out there). I believe a smart man once said; "caches will probably be found before the LDM". I tend to lean towards this view. Finding a Mine, let alone the LDM, has it's challenges, but finding a cache of sorts - have better odds of being found whether that's accidental or intentional.

As for equipment - yes, the type of device you're trying to refer to, exists and is being used out there. This is a particular device that can penetrate deeper, picking up mineral-i zed material that may be grouped together underground. Now, that being said; a good metal detector (i.e., Minelab, Garret, etc.) can also be a good tool - as some of the models are well designed, being able to pinpoint certain minerals (i.e., gold, silver, artifacts, etc) specifically. Personally, I use a Minelab Equinox 800 - which seems to be a good middle-of-the-road device.

With all that's out there regarding the LDM, I am confident that; there will be that hunter who will achieve success, but it's going to take patience, diligent "homework" and a bit of Luck to gain that prize. One of the best things you can do, is keep an open mind about what others have to say, as many have searched for decades and have accumulated much knowledge/experience - which could be that one element of clues that brings you to the End-of-the-Rainbow.

So, let me welcome you to the HUNT and I wish you much luck out there, providing you take that step into the fray.

-SpartanOC

SpartanOC
I don't mind at all. I find this very intriguing and it's fascinating. This could also be a dangerous journey. I have never really hiked up in the mountains before, but I know there are dangers to face an s that's all part of the hunt. Not only the treacherous landscapes, but the greed comes with all of this as well. I'm sure one must tread lightly seeking the LDM or anything else for this matter. Do you have to get permissions or a permit to hunt for this or anything else in that matter?

 

[SPARTANOC]

SpartanOC
I don't mind at all. I find this very intriguing and it's fascinating. This could also be a dangerous journey. I have never really hiked up in the mountains before, but I know there are dangers to face an s that's all part of the hunt. Not only the treacherous landscapes, but the greed comes with all of this as well. I'm sure one must tread lightly seeking the LDM or anything else for this matter. Do you have to get permissions or a permit to hunt for this or anything else in that matter?

Garytman

Well, that is a very good question. Most understand that, 'treasure hunting' does require a permit - which as I understand it, is quite difficult to get for that area (the Supes). You can't utilize mechanical equipment back there; as the area is protected now. Mining claims were stopped back in 1983 I believe (if my memory serves me well) and to get a mining permit - requires proof of a level of minerals that would qualify for a permit. Once a site has been verified - that's when things can get "sticky" - as those on a Government level, step in and can take things over without YOUR involvement. So in essence, you're not allowed to dig really, in the Supes, without a permit per say. That being said; there are ways to "bypass" those rules, as surface movement of the ground is permitted, but to a degree. Like I had said earlier, your best bet are cache(s) left behind by others.

One tip I can give you, is something I recently learned - that gold in Arizona 'floats' compared to California where you have to dig deep for even the smallest placer gold, let alone finding nuggets. Unlike California, Arizona is its own special place for searching out gold. The terrain is very unique and the gold placement/movement is quiet different than any other place in the U.S. The only other place that I'm aware of that is similar, is Australia where nuggets can be located right on the surface of the ground without having to dig at all.

As for the terrain itself - yes it can be very treacherous and even lethal if you are not prepared on all levels. Personally, I have not been in there as of yet. I live in Southern California and its difficult to get out there - when you have to work a full week. The cost of living here is ridiculous and requires one to keep the money flowing in, or you're toast to say the least. What I can say definitively, is that in my experience here in CA., working our mountains (San Gabriel Mountains are my usual place of adventure), you MUST be as prepared for anything, which includes a sound level of knowledge of said environment - good quality equipment, a trusty partner and good health. The most important thing to keep ringing in your mind, is a strong stance of good health. If you don't have that, you will struggle beyond the norm. I've heard of so many who've had "close calls", due to their health at the time of their expeditions. If you blink out there, you could be in a situation that could cost you your life.

I've done some considerable research of the LDM and other 'Treasure stories' for the better part of 10 years, and its just now - that I feel comfortable in getting myself out there and tackle the unknown. So, though I've never been back there, I can tell you - you've got to be on your best game or you won't come out there in one piece. Now - again that being said, don't think that every nook and cranny has danger awaiting for you at every turn. We no longer live in the era of Apaches killing white folk out there, just to keep one from a specific area, but there are those that could be classified as "sketchy" - so keeping things close at hand is usually the best way to cover yourself and be prepared for almost anything.

I will emphasis once again, that you can never be too prepared for hiking/exploring in the Mountains, especially the Superstitions. The environment out there is some of the toughest terrain to move about in. The Supes are mostly volcanic on the West side and the region is extremely large in circumference. You can get turned around and lose your barrings, as many have - later needing rescue or meet an untimely death, so don't let the stories fog your mind and let it consume you. You've got to pace yourself as you go about things - prepare for absolutely anything that could arise, but most of all - enjoy the search, as THAT is the real Treasure about all of this. It's the finding of something of values that's just the frosting on the cake so-to-speak.

Grace and Peace to you
-SpartanOC

 

[SPARTANOC]

The entrance to the mine is now underwater, in Apache Lake.

Terry

If you're referring to the LDM, what evidence do you have to support that statement?

 

[coazon de oro]

The entrance to the mine is now underwater, in Apache Lake.

Howdy Terry,
So does this mean that your picture inside the LDM is fake? All this time I have even tried shinning a light on it to see the pretty girl, I care less of Bigfoot .
Are you selling scuba gear now?

 

[Garytman]

Garytman

Well, that is a very good question. Most understand that, 'treasure hunting' does require a permit - which as I understand it, is quite difficult to get for that area (the Supes). You can't utilize mechanical equipment back there; as the area is protected now. Mining claims were stopped back in 1983 I believe (if my memory serves me well) and to get a mining permit - requires proof of a level of minerals that would qualify for a permit. Once a site has been verified - that's when things can get "sticky" - as those on a Government level, step in and can take things over without YOUR involvement. So in essence, you're not allowed to dig really, in the Supes, without a permit per say. That being said; there are ways to "bypass" those rules, as surface movement of the ground is permitted, but to a degree. Like I had said earlier, your best bet are cache(s) left behind by others.

One tip I can give you, is something I recently learned - that gold in Arizona 'floats' compared to California where you have to dig deep for even the smallest placer gold, let alone finding nuggets. Unlike California, Arizona is its own special place for searching out gold. The terrain is very unique and the gold placement/movement is quiet different than any other place in the U.S. The only other place that I'm aware of that is similar, is Australia where nuggets can be located right on the surface of the ground without having to dig at all.

As for the terrain itself - yes it can be very treacherous and even lethal if you are not prepared on all levels. Personally, I have not been in there as of yet. I live in Southern California and its difficult to get out there - when you have to work a full week. The cost of living here is ridiculous and requires one to keep the money flowing in, or you're toast to say the least. What I can say definitively, is that in my experience here in CA., working our mountains (San Gabriel Mountains are my usual place of adventure), you MUST be as prepared for anything, which includes a sound level of knowledge of said environment - good quality equipment, a trusty partner and good health. The most important thing to keep ringing in your mind, is a strong stance of good health. If you don't have that, you will struggle beyond the norm. I've heard of so many who've had "close calls", due to their health at the time of their expeditions. If you blink out there, you could be in a situation that could cost you your life.

I've done some considerable research of the LDM and other 'Treasure stories' for the better part of 10 years, and its just now - that I feel comfortable in getting myself out there and tackle the unknown. So, though I've never been back there, I can tell you - you've got to be on your best game or you won't come out there in one piece. Now - again that being said, don't think that every nook and cranny has danger awaiting for you at every turn. We no longer live in the era of Apaches killing white folk out there, just to keep one from a specific area, but there are those that could be classified as "sketchy" - so keeping things close at hand is usually the best way to cover yourself and be prepared for almost anything.

I will emphasis once again, that you can never be too prepared for hiking/exploring in the Mountains, especially the Superstitions. The environment out there is some of the toughest terrain to move about in. The Supes are mostly volcanic on the West side and the region is extremely large in circumference. You can get turned around and lose your barrings, as many have - later needing rescue or meet an untimely death, so don't let the stories fog your mind and let it consume you. You've got to pace yourself as you go about things - prepare for absolutely anything that could arise, but most of all - enjoy the search, as THAT is the real Treasure about all of this. It's the finding of something of values that's just the frosting on the cake so-to-speak.

Grace and Peace to you
-SpartanOC

SpartanOC
You are right about Australia as you described "floating" gold. I have watched programs of them searching for gold in Auatralia and nuggets are found either right on the surface or a couple inches below. I live in PA and I'm not as young as I used g o be so my chances going to the Superstition mountains are quite slim, but you never know. Here in PA there are some places for placer, float, and very few nuggets. I have been studying glacial maps some, and I have checked out one area so far, but did more miles of hiking than gold panning etc. I found 1 tiny piece where I was looking, so I know it's there. I also came home with sea glass, obsidian, and jasper and also some quartz. I admire you and can see you have done quite the research.

When I said tread lightly, that's no joke. Here in PA people have been looking for an 1863 civil war gold shipment supposedly hidden in the hills somewhere. There was a treasure hunter named Parada who spent years of his life looking for that gold. He felt like he knew where it would be. In Dent's Run, PA. He found a cave a few other signs. I'm not sure the whole story exactly. He swept over an area that hit hard with his detector, and it was a big area. He knew he had to involve the FBI in the dig. As soon as he got the FBI involved, they took over and dug secretly in the night.

Even though they were supposed to dig the next day with him there. There were armored trucks, excavators, you name it that night. The next day they were already cleared out and the ground was returned. The FBI even admitted their scans showed the likelihood of buried metal mass equating hundreds of millions of dollars in gold. The FBI's warrant to excavate the site limited work to 6a to 10p each day. They worked outside of that time frame and secretly loaded up that golf. Their was a witness that saw many heavy trucks and one that road low, as it was carrying a heavy load. Parada has sued the FBI, most of all because he spent his time, resources and did not get a finder fee. The FBI claimed they found nothing.

 

[Garytman]

SpartanOC
You are right about Australia as you described "floating" gold. I have watched programs of them searching for gold in Auatralia and nuggets are found either right on the surface or a couple inches below. I live in PA and I'm not as young as I used g o be so my chances going to the Superstition mountains are quite slim, but you never know. Here in PA there are some places for placer, float, and very few nuggets. I have been studying glacial maps some, and I have checked out one area so far, but did more miles of hiking than gold panning etc. I found 1 tiny piece where I was looking, so I know it's there. I also came home with sea glass, obsidian, and jasper and also some quartz. I admire you and can see you have done quite the research.

When I said tread lightly, that's no joke. Here in PA people have been looking for an 1863 civil war gold shipment supposedly hidden in the hills somewhere. There was a treasure hunter named Parada who spent years of his life looking for that gold. He felt like he knew where it would be. In Dent's Run, PA. He found a cave a few other signs. I'm not sure the whole story exactly. He swept over an area that hit hard with his detector, and it was a big area. He knew he had to involve the FBI in the dig. As soon as he got the FBI involved, they took over and dug secretly in the night.

Even though they were supposed to dig the next day with him there. There were armored trucks, excavators, you name it that night. The next day they were already cleared out and the ground was returned. The FBI even admitted their scans showed the likelihood of buried metal mass equating hundreds of millions of dollars in gold. The FBI's warrant to excavate the site limited work to 6a to 10p each day. They worked outside of that time frame and secretly loaded up that golf. Their was a witness that saw many heavy trucks and one that road low, as it was carrying a heavy load. Parada has sued the FBI, most of all because he spent his time, resources and did not get a finder fee. The FBI claimed they found nothing.

I am writing this from work and I see I have made some typing errors. I'm not sure if we can edit on here, but I'm sure you knew I meant "gold" not golf.

 

[SPARTANOC]

I am writing this from work and I see I have made some typing errors. I'm not sure if we can edit on here, but I'm sure you knew I meant "gold" not golf.

Garytman

One thing I've learned about all of this "hunting", don't hesitate in your goals. Life is very short and a life half lived is no Life at all. And your typing errors are forgiven...

-SpartanOC

 

[coazon de oro]

SpartanOC
You are right about Australia as you described "floating" gold. I have watched programs of them searching for gold in Auatralia and nuggets are found either right on the surface or a couple inches below. I live in PA and I'm not as young as I used g o be so my chances going to the Superstition mountains are quite slim, but you never know. Here in PA there are some places for placer, float, and very few nuggets. I have been studying glacial maps some, and I have checked out one area so far, but did more miles of hiking than gold panning etc. I found 1 tiny piece where I was looking, so I know it's there. I also came home with sea glass, obsidian, and jasper and also some quartz. I admire you and can see you have done quite the research.

When I said tread lightly, that's no joke. Here in PA people have been looking for an 1863 civil war gold shipment supposedly hidden in the hills somewhere. There was a treasure hunter named Parada who spent years of his life looking for that gold. He felt like he knew where it would be. In Dent's Run, PA. He found a cave a few other signs. I'm not sure the whole story exactly. He swept over an area that hit hard with his detector, and it was a big area. He knew he had to involve the FBI in the dig. As soon as he got the FBI involved, they took over and dug secretly in the night.

Even though they were supposed to dig the next day with him there. There were armored trucks, excavators, you name it that night. The next day they were already cleared out and the ground was returned. The FBI even admitted their scans showed the likelihood of buried metal mass equating hundreds of millions of dollars in gold. The FBI's warrant to excavate the site limited work to 6a to 10p each day. They worked outside of that time frame and secretly loaded up that golf. Their was a witness that saw many heavy trucks and one that road low, as it was carrying a heavy load. Parada has sued the FBI, most of all because he spent his time, resources and did not get a finder fee. The FBI claimed they found nothing.

And many wonder why Waltz never filed a claim.

 

[Garytman]

Garytman

One thing I've learned about all of this "hunting", don't hesitate in your goals. Life is very short and a life half lived is no Life at all. And your typing errors are forgiven...

-SpartanOC

I agree with you 💯 👍