CLUES TO THE LOST DUTCMAN MINE

[markmar]

I know you are all LDM researchers, in one way or another, with your own style and mindset.
My input about Waltz's doodle was only informative, for those who are interested and have not their version of where that image could be. Was not my intent to try to change anyone's beliefs, nor to prove I'm superior than others.
One day, everyone will be judged about the info has provided, at the proper time by the proper individuals. I'm here to write the truth, no matter if likes or not. You have to decide in what side of the line you would want to be.

 

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[Idahodutch]

If you can't recognize the Waltz doodle in my cropped pic, then I'm not wonder why are you searching in vain. You are just a simple hiker who claimed found Waltz's caches, and the irony is you may believe it. You are very entertaining indeed. The parody will be continued to the infinity.

Here is your truth markmar. You even wrote it down on public forum.
Revel in it as much as you like 👌😆

You have shown yourself over and over to be dishonorable. 😳
Unfortunately actions speak louder than words. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Sincerely,
Idahodutch

 

[markmar]

Here is your truth markmar. You even wrote it down on public forum.
Revel in it as much as you like 👌😆

You have shown yourself over and over to be dishonorable. 😳
Unfortunately actions speak louder than words. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Sincerely,
Idahodutch

At every occasion, you were the first who has provoked me, and now you are playing the victim. You are a bad actor with no shame.

 

[SPARTANOC]

At every occasion, you were the first who has provoked me, and now you are playing the victim. You are a bad actor with no shame.

Markmar

I believe you might be 'projecting'. Idahodutch has been quite mature in his responses and has given you Grace beyond what you deserve. In order to get respect, you have to give respect.

If you've got important information that can be elaborated and is good collectively with regards to clues that some might not be aware of; then share and be apart of the conversation instead of "punching" back on Idahodutch's comments/observations. He's worked hard for what he knows.

I for one, have only been on this site a short while and I've learned more about the LDM from Idahodutch and others (and you know who they are), than from anyone else. These gentlemen have invested time, sweat and blood (injuries) in order to get further with the clues given by many Dutch Hunters and those who knew of the LDM location. So, I would walk softly and continue the conversation(s) with an open mind - comparing different views, instead of lowering yourself to a narcissistic monitor that thinks he's got all the answers - then mocking those who's details differ.

Be apart of the solution and not a hindrance to those who are still gathering clues (like myself), because it only confuses the context AND paints a picture of someone who's not really interested in solving the legend. Everyone's attitude good or bad, effects the outcome of this and other threads. I've read many threads here on TN and your comments are often combative, OR of a baiting nature.
-SPARTANOC

 

[Idahodutch]

I know you are all LDM researchers, in one way or another, with your own style and mindset.
My input about Waltz's doodle was only informative, for those who are interested and have not their version of where that image could be. Was not my intent to try to change anyone's beliefs, nor to prove I'm superior than others.
One day, everyone will be judged about the info has provided, at the proper time by the proper individuals. I'm here to write the truth, no matter if likes or not. You have to decide in what side of the line you would want to be.

Let’s just look some more 👌😁

So your post about the doodle was “only informative”

Nah, it was secretive by the blurring, and cropping.

Should we keep looking? 😆
We can be here all day looking at your bs, talking out both sides of your mouth.
Forked young, however is your preference, but dishonorable just the same.

How about your superiority complex?
Should we go there? Mr lord of the superstitions, the master of all treasure stories 😆

how many members here, have you insulted with whatever you can think of, …. Mr Niagara Falls? 😬 yeah, I wouldn’t need to look very far would I markmar?

I noticed that while I yet type this post, you posted more accusations against me,
Oh my, how will I keep up 🤓

 

[markmar]

Let's continue the comments about the LDM clues. I don't want anymore any controversy, so I let you know I put Idahodutch in the Ignore option. I can't hurt my heart anymore.

Another clue about the Waltz's doodle, is how many believe is a view from the LDM. IMHO, it's not. Like I wrote, the image in the sketch is from the mouth of the arroyo where the Military Trail turns to the south, in the said route told by Waltz to Holmes, and describes the first features from the lower part of the arroyo.
Now, IMHO what someone can see from the LDM? No many things. The view around is very limited to a point that someone could feel uncomfortable. The only mentioned clues which could be seen, are the rock man, the tip of WN and a part (few yards) of the Military Trail which pops out about half mile away little to the left of the rock man.
I would name the region of the LDM as a Devil's pot.

 

[markmar]

Markmar

I believe you might be 'projecting'. Idahodutch has been quite mature in his responses and has given you Grace beyond what you deserve. In order to get respect, you have to give respect.

If you've got important information that can be elaborated and is good collectively with regards to clues that some might not be aware of; then share and be apart of the conversation instead of "punching" back on Idahodutch's comments/observations. He's worked hard for what he knows.

I for one, have only been on this site a short while and I've learned more about the LDM from Idahodutch and others (and you know who they are), than from anyone else. These gentlemen have invested time, sweat and blood (injuries) in order to get further with the clues given by many Dutch Hunters and those who knew of the LDM location. So, I would walk softly and continue the conversation(s) with an open mind - comparing different views, instead of lowering yourself to a narcissistic monitor that thinks he's got all the answers - then mocking those who's details differ.

Be apart of the solution and not a hindrance to those who are still gathering clues (like myself), because it only confuses the context AND paints a picture of someone who's not really interested in solving the legend. Everyone's attitude good or bad, effects the outcome of this and other threads. I've read many threads here on TN and your comments are often combative, OR of a baiting nature.
-SPARTANOC

Seems you read the posts in the threads backwards. Try to read from the first pages to the end and maybe you will understand who is punching whom. Matters how the observations/comments are written down. Trying to be objective, it will keep you safe to avoid some mud on your shoes.

 

[SPARTANOC]

Seems you read the posts in the threads backwards. Try to read from the first pages to the end and maybe you will understand who is punching whom. Matters how the observations/comments are written down. Trying to be objective, it will keep you safe to avoid some mud on your shoes.

Markmar

Those threads have been read thoroughly and in order. I've got no "beef" with anyone, but I will point out the obvious. Through all of the threads historically, conversations you've had with Idahodutch and others here on TN; its been painfully obvious that you seem to project onto others, what you claim others are doing/saying. I don't understand why, but it seems you like to stir up things. Maybe I'm just reading you wrong.

If you've got value to add to the conversations, than you're 'walking' right through TN. If you're just trying to bait people into an argument or create frustration by making comments that are not true, then you might be the problem. Again, I don't want to start any kind of angst, simply due to the fact, that I've seen you shell out some good information here on TN. What is troubling, is you seem to change somewhere in the middle of a conversation - one moment flowing WITH the conversation, the next moment you're making weird statements, and blaming others of things that just are not true.

I've seen Idahodutch try and stop you from moving forward with said comments, but to no avail. You then 'ignore' Idahodutch as if, he's been the problem all along. Personally, I would like to see you join the conversation without pointing out others different perspective, as if they've been wrong all along. If you've got good info that could correct something (clues), then actually be apart of the growing conversation with respect of how others see things.

When I have a conversation with Idahodutch, I am respectful of his info, whether I agree with it or not. I'll present my position (regardless of it being right or not), in a way that does not intrude on the hard work/research that Idahodutch has conducted. I've realized I can learn a lot from some of these guys here on TN, as they've walked - the walk, not just talked about the walk.

So Markmar, to sum things up, I would like to see you continue here on TN and not get banned. I think everyone has something to introduce or offer, regardless of being experienced or not.
Grace and Peace,
-SPARTANOC

 

[markmar]

Spartanoc

Maybe you read me wrong. Idaho was chasing my posts. Everytime I was writing a post, he was jumping in and he was writing how I made things up, how I'm changing the clues, I'm writing BS, and all this to protect his claims and and to keep alive his statement he found where the LDM it's located. I was answering only to his provocations.
Nobody knows what another member knows, so everybody have to respect anyone's opinion and statement. Without been able to prove the contrary on what a member is writing, nobody has the rights to insult or to " speak laud " in regards to intimidate and with this behaviour to project indirect his theory and claims. Here we are free to write what we believe could help in the solving of different legends and stories.
Many times I'm thinking if it's worth giving clues out and trying to help people to get closer to what are looking for. The only thing I got back from all this, was irony and competitive behaviour. Maybe my fault is how I'm too confident of what I'm writing and this looks like I'm a narcissist and I want to show off myself.

With all these said, I let you ( plural ) know how I will stop posting in any LDM thread, reading and waiting to see what will be the results of any research which could lead to the LDM. Good luck to everyone!

 

[Idahodutch]

Spartanoc

Maybe you read me wrong. Idaho was chasing my posts. Everytime I was writing a post, he was jumping in and he was writing how I made things up, how I'm changing the clues, I'm writing BS, and all this to protect his claims and and to keep alive his statement he found where the LDM it's located. I was answering only to his provocations.
Nobody knows what another member knows, so everybody have to respect anyone's opinion and statement. Without been able to prove the contrary on what a member is writing, nobody has the rights to insult or to " speak laud " in regards to intimidate and with this behaviour to project indirect his theory and claims. Here we are free to write what we believe could help in the solving of different legends and stories.
Many times I'm thinking if it's worth giving clues out and trying to help people to get closer to what are looking for. The only thing I got back from all this, was irony and competitive behaviour. Maybe my fault is how I'm too confident of what I'm writing and this looks like I'm a narcissist and I want to show off myself.

With all these said, I let you ( plural ) know how I will stop posting in any LDM thread, reading and waiting to see what will be the results of any research which could lead to the LDM. Good luck to everyone!

Wow Markmar,
Not a good wow either. I’m still here, and still bothered by your postings.
You’ve dug a deep hole, good luck climbing out 🥹

Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

Spartanoc

Maybe you read me wrong. Idaho was chasing my posts. Everytime I was writing a post, he was jumping in and he was writing how I made things up, how I'm changing the clues, I'm writing BS, and all this to protect his claims and and to keep alive his statement he found where the LDM it's located. I was answering only to his provocations.
Nobody knows what another member knows, so everybody have to respect anyone's opinion and statement. Without been able to prove the contrary on what a member is writing, nobody has the rights to insult or to " speak laud " in regards to intimidate and with this behaviour to project indirect his theory and claims. Here we are free to write what we believe could help in the solving of different legends and stories.
Many times I'm thinking if it's worth giving clues out and trying to help people to get closer to what are looking for. The only thing I got back from all this, was irony and competitive behaviour. Maybe my fault is how I'm too confident of what I'm writing and this looks like I'm a narcissist and I want to show off myself.

With all these said, I let you ( plural ) know how I will stop posting in any LDM thread, reading and waiting to see what will be the results of any research which could lead to the LDM. Good luck to everyone!

Markmar,
I went back through to check up on myself, and see If you have basis for this post I’ve quoted.


I see why you have run away. If I were to have done what you said, I might have been banned. Too bad you would not listen to Spartanoc, or 393 stroker, who have been very kind to you, in spite of your rude responses to them…… the same treatment many here have gotten from you.

You definitely have been projecting your bad behavior onto me and others…. but feels like you have been relentless on the poor behavior towards me.
The why seems to be in response to my calling you out on your twisting of clues, that don’t even make sense, and yet you use your twistings to bash what others have said, ….. a behavior that I have seen continue for over 4 years, ever since I started to share my search results.

I told you recently that you’re blowing it, that more and more of the members here are on to your bs. I guess maybe that was a sign you took to double down. 🤷🏼‍♂️

Now after practically all doubt of your bs has been eliminated, by you yourself, you try to blame me, and what? Punish others by not posting LDM stuff anymore.
(for what offense?)

Don’t get me wrong, I’m concerned for you, but relieved you won’t be posting bs over here on LDM stuff anymore, (even though that was most likely just one of your threats 🥸)

In the mean time, I hope you decide to honestly self reflect, and experience some heart softening moments … for now, I say good bye to you markmar.

Sincerely,
Idahodutch

 

[Myk]

Hooch,

This is gold ore that Kraig Roberts was showing. Believe he claimed it came from the Superstitions:



Greg said he panned out a little gold from this hole:



This is Kochera ore, and is said to contain some gold. believe you can see it if you blow up the picture:



The ore in this ring was claimed to be LDM, from the Superstitions:



There are other pictures, but not for publication.........

Gray-haired Joe

LDM or not that ring is pretty darn cool!

 

[Myk]

Here`s a link to some of the clues to Jake`s mine. Feel free to add some more if you can. :: Ghost Towns and Legends of Lost Treasure :: Care2 Groups

I know this isn't going to make me any friends on this thread but I saw this on the History Channel and there is a school of thought that not only has it been found but it's location is well known today.





Heavy pans

 

[SPARTANOC]

I know this isn't going to make me any friends on this thread but I saw this on the History Channel and there is a school of thought that not only has it been found but it's location is well known today.





Heavy pans

Myk

Most of us here aren't worried about what you watched. I too watched the episode and I don't believe they proved the Mammoth mine to be the LDM. Not even close. It might have been a rich mine, but it really doesn't fit any of the clues given by Waltz. Waltz did work in that mine and he probably "skimmed" some gold out of there - but none of what Waltz said regarding HIS mine - matches with the Mammoth Mine. So, we're not concerned. At least I'm not.

There are some (at least one here on TN), that has a good lead on an area - that seems very promising and it IS in the Supes. The LDM is a very unique mine and it will be very difficult to find (seeing that it hasn't been found as of 2024) and it will take a person who's patient and well equipped to find it or the caches left behind by Jacob.

-SpartanOC

 

[Cubfan64]

Myk

Most of us here aren't worried about what you watched. I too watched the episode and I don't believe they proved the Mammoth mine to be the LDM. Not even close. It might have been a rich mine, but it really doesn't fit any of the clues given by Waltz. Waltz did work in that mine and he probably "skimmed" some gold out of there - but none of what Waltz said regarding HIS mine - matches with the Mammoth Mine. So, we're not concerned. At least I'm not.

There are some (at least one here on TN), that has a good lead on an area - that seems very promising and it IS in the Supes. The LDM is a very unique mine and it will be very difficult to find (seeing that it hasn't been found as of 2024) and it will take a person who's patient and well equipped to find it or the caches left behind by Jacob.

-SpartanOC

"Waltz did work in that mine"

If you have undeniable proof of that, it would be great to see. As far as I know, nobody has ever documented that he worked either at the Mammoth, Bulldog or the Vulture mine in Wickenburg - although all three of them are tossed out there by folks as fact.

 

[SPARTANOC]

"Waltz did work in that mine"

If you have undeniable proof of that, it would be great to see. As far as I know, nobody has ever documented that he worked either at the Mammoth, Bulldog or the Vulture mine in Wickenburg - although all three of them are tossed out there by folks as fact.

Cubfan64

Define undeniable proof. I don't believe anyone can show 'undeniable proof' of what Waltz did or where he "worked out" his Ore; being that, the information that has been afforded to us, is mixed with fact and fiction at best.

Tom Kollenborn had stated at one time: "Waltz could have easily worked the Black queen, Mammoth or Bull Dog mines in the Goldfields. However it is also difficult to believe Waltz worked a mine in the Goldfields because there were numerous prospectors in the area between 1879 - 1892. It would have been difficult to work a gold deposit in the area without being observed by somebody." - T. Kollenborn

So, though vague on details, the idea isn't that far fetched. Yes, the Mammoth Mine was not discovered till AFTER Waltz's death - but does that negate Waltz working that area before hand? I think not, to be honest. Though it's difficult for Tom or others to believe Waltz "worked" said areas; it's not impossible and I'm in the camp of keeping an open mind - as there have been other occurrences back in the Supes, that no one thought was possible (i.e., Jesuits presence, Mexican rat holes, etc).

-SpartanOC

 

[Cubfan64]

Cubfan64

Define undeniable proof. I don't believe anyone can show 'undeniable proof' of what Waltz did or where he "worked out" his Ore; being that, the information that has been afforded to us, is mixed with fact and fiction at best.

Tom Kollenborn had stated at one time: "Waltz could have easily worked the Black queen, Mammoth or Bull Dog mines in the Goldfields. However it is also difficult to believe Waltz worked a mine in the Goldfields because there were numerous prospectors in the area between 1879 - 1892. It would have been difficult to work a gold deposit in the area without being observed by somebody." - T. Kollenborn

So, though vague on details, the idea isn't that far fetched. Yes, the Mammoth Mine was not discovered till AFTER Waltz's death - but does that negate Waltz working that area before hand? I think not, to be honest. Though it's difficult for Tom or others to believe Waltz "worked" said areas; it's not impossible and I'm in the camp of keeping an open mind - as there have been other occurrences back in the Supes, that no one thought was possible (i.e., Jesuits presence, Mexican rat holes, etc).

-SpartanOC

Never said the idea was far fetched, but words have meaning. There's a big difference between saying "Waltz did work in that mine" and "Waltz may have worked in that mine." Undeniable proof (to me) would be a ledger from the Mammoth, Bulldog or Vulture Mine's in the 1800's listing Waltz as working there. Anything short of that is just stories or rumors, and those are the things we struggle with now when looking back trying to pick the needles out of the haystack - people follow all these clues, and yet over 130 some years, how many word changes in a story have completely changed the real truth?


You'd be surprised how much undeniable truth you can find out about Waltz in old files and dusty archives. Nothing that proves he found a rich mine in the Superstitions, but little tidbits. Of course, it's possible some things have been forged or fabricated too so maybe there really IS no undeniable proof

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Cubfan64,

Sometime in the early 1980's I was living on a ranch north of Cave Creek and Tom Kollenborn and another man stopped in and we had a conversation among other things about Waltz and if he had ever worked in mines around Arizona.

Being there was no proof I showed the both men a 3 page report by Charles H. Dunning the Director of the Arizona State Department of Mineral Resources about a discovery of a mine excavation on the Mammoth site that predated the anglo era.

Tom was totally unaware of the report and it changed his view completely about the Mammoth Mine and mining in the Superstitions.

Everyone can read this report as in 2018 I posted it to the internet.

The Google link is,
Alfred Lewis Discovery at the old Mammoth Mine 1949 - 1950.

This report by Dunning helped to fuel the speculation that Waltz mined at the Mammoth or at least his mine was on the same site as the Mammoth.

I don't believe Waltz worked as a miner for any of the commercial mines but on the other hand no one can say he didn't with 100% certainty. Miners came and went in that era and records of their employment are practically nonexistent.

Dunning's 3 page report raises the question if this wasn't possibly the mine of Jacob Waltz.

 

[Cubfan64]

Cubfan64,

Sometime in the early 1980's I was living on a ranch north of Cave Creek and Tom Kollenborn and another man stopped in and we had a conversation among other things about Waltz and if he had ever worked in mines around Arizona.

Being there was no proof I showed the both men a 3 page report by Charles H. Dunning the Director of the Arizona State Department of Mineral Resources about a discovery of a mine excavation on the Mammoth site that predated the anglo era.

Tom was totally unaware of the report and it changed his view completely about the Mammoth Mine and mining in the Superstitions.

Everyone can read this report as in 2018 I posted it to the internet.

The Google link is,
Alfred Lewis Discovery at the old Mammoth Mine 1949 - 1950.

This report by Dunning helped to fuel the speculation that Waltz mined at the Mammoth or at least his mine was on the same site as the Mammoth.

I don't believe Waltz worked as a miner for any of the commercial mines but on the other hand no one can say he didn't with 100% certainty. Miners came and went in that era and records of their employment are practically nonexistent.

Dunning's 3 page report raises the question if this wasn't possibly the mine of Jacob Waltz.

Do you recall if any of the Mammoth mine gold ore characteristics matched those of what's left of the ore Brownie Holmes had from his father who was supposed to have gotten it from under Waltz's bed?

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Do you recall if any of the Mammoth mine gold ore characteristics matched those of what's left of the ore Brownie Holmes had from his father who was supposed to have gotten it from under Waltz's bed?

Cubfan,
The ores tested against the known Dutchman ore were :
Mammoth ore
Black Queen ore
Vulture ore
Kochera ore
Camp ore

Only the camp ore from the interior of the Superstitions exhibited similar mineral and elements.

Kochera ore was somewhat near in a few minerals.

Mammoth, Black Queen and Vulture ores were no where near a match.