claim broker shysters

[fowledup]

Every so often I check Craigslist and Ebay to make sure I don't see familiar pictures of claims for sale that I know for certain aren't. My lord if you want to see whose honest and whose not, now is a good time. Take a look and check out the lead in's to their sales pitches - "Dredgings legal", "the bans over", "dredging opens this June", "start mining immediately everything transferable" and my personal favorite "never been mined". People got no scrupples, fricken crooks!

 

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[Hefty1]

40K for a POS property..... How can one possibly say no............

NO!

 

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[Asmbandits]

Are you serious? Im referring to the screenshots that I posted and the whole post that includes the bold text. I can not provide anything other than clays incorrect statement because it does not exist!

Yes im quite serious, are you? What is said in the photos posted that has anything to do about staking a claim with sole intent to sell?

I would have to see the written law to believe that. Did you get your info by reading the law? If so please post a link. If you got the info from a forum then whomever said it is a wanna be expert?

Did you not post this before that?

Like Goldwasher said your we know what your trying to get at but its a poor way of justifying it. While there have been proven court cases that show the outcome of this described scenario, you don't believe that holds validity?

We can play this game all day, but I believe the case law was set in motion to support this long ago, the lack of direct attention to this exact scenario from the blm inst supporting enough to ignore this imo.

 

[chlsbrns]

If I am wrong you should have no problem posting the law... correct?

The bold paragraph shows that a claim can be sold before the assessment is filed and warns about purchasing a claim after sept 1st. In other words the claim can be sold before it is worked.

***Be careful of
claims offered for sale after September 1. This is the end of the annual labor
year on both State and federal claims. Assessment work must have been
accomplished for any specific year prior to that date and recorded no later
than November 30th for the State claims and December 30th for federal
claims. Have the seller show you, in writing, a properly recorded affidavit.

 

[Asmbandits]

If ignorance towards case law is your practice, see how it holds up for you when your in this scenario is all I can offer. I understand what you are trying to get at, the lack of law from the blm stating otherwise. I would argue that I'm not even sure if some of what you posted could be considered regulations ot actual law and if and how a court looks at these in conjunction to federal and state law, and therefore may hold different validity in a court of law, especially against case law and vise versa. Im no lawyer but I tend to think that case law is a important factor in this and cant just be written off in ignorance.

 

[chlsbrns]

If ignorance towards case law is your practice, see how it holds up for you when your in this scenario is all I can offer. I understand what you are trying to get at, the lack of law from the blm stating otherwise. I would argue that I'm not even sure if some of what you posted could be considered regulations ot actual law and if and how a court looks at these in conjunction to federal and state law, and therefore may hold different validity in a court of law, especially against case law and vise versa. Im no lawyer but I tend to think that case law is a important factor in this and cant just be written off in ignorance.

You must have missed my post about fraud. http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/gold-prospecting/453731-claim-broker-shysters-2.html#post4862371

The lack of a law means there is no law.

If history repeats itself a self proclaimed expert will chime in with a long winded post that does not contain the law. It will be case history that has nothing to do with selling claims.

 

[winners58]

How can a claim be perfected before you even own the rights. If I find a good prospect I would stake a claim,
it would mean I have asserted a right of possession under the General Mining Law and as long as I am diligently working
toward development of my mineral deposit no one else can prospect or take it away.
There is some case law if your not engaged in mineral development you could lose your rights (pedis possessio doctrine)
There are also lots of cases that we don't hear about handled by the IBLA https://www.doi.gov/oha/organization/ibla
like if someone sells a claim but owns more than 10 at the time and doesn't address it before selling they will invalidate the claim.
Miners should learn the in's and out's of locating a claim and be watching for claims in good areas to come open to get them before the claim flippers do.
Buying on e-Bay is a gamble BLM e-Bay warning

 

[Goldwasher]

Didnt Clay just post this a day or two ago? http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/gold-prospecting/491518-same-old-hustle.html

The mining laws states that you must have the intent of developing the resource. Not that you can find open land make a location filing and turn around and sell it. The case law presented to you backs that up.
I never said you can't sell valid claims. It's what makes a claim valid that matters. Selling an area you located on open public lands for the propose of making money is illegal.

 

[Goldwasher]

If I am wrong you should have no problem posting the law... correct?

The bold paragraph shows that a claim can be sold before the assessment is filed and warns about purchasing a claim after sept 1st. In other words the claim can be sold before it is worked.

***Be careful of
claims offered for sale after September 1. This is the end of the annual labor
year on both State and federal claims. Assessment work must have been
accomplished for any specific year prior to that date and recorded no later
than November 30th for the State claims and December 30th for federal
claims. Have the seller show you, in writing, a properly recorded affidavit.

The reason your being told what to watch out for this is because if you know the laws you know why all of these things raise huge red flags why do you think your being warned about them. It's not saying you can sell its saying you can be ripped off by someone selling what are essentially invalid claims that won't stand up in court.

 

[chlsbrns]

The mining laws states that you must have the intent of developing the resource. Not that you can find open land make a location filing and turn around and sell it. The case law presented to you backs that up.
I never said you can't sell valid claims. It's what makes a claim valid that matters. Selling an area you located on open public lands for the propose of making money is illegal.

You read the law? Great! Post a link or quote the law so we can read it ourself!

 

[chlsbrns]

The reason your being told what to watch out for this is because if you know the laws you know why all of these things raise huge red flags why do you think your being warned about them. It's not saying you can sell its saying you can be ripped off by someone selling what are essentially invalid claims that won't stand up in court.

If you know the law you can post the law correct? You have already posted that you would post the law so post it.

 

[chlsbrns]

Winners link to the Dept of Interior has multiple cases where claims were invalidated due to the fact that the claim owner could not prove that the land posessed enough valuable minerals to make a profit. For some reason I cant find that any claims being invalidated because they were sold? Strange huh?

 

[winners58]

I don't have anything against selling claims,
deception and fraud in doing so should not be tolerated.
Report Mining Claim Fraud Information

 

[Au-N-Rod]

chlsbrns, I am fairly new so do not have a real idea . But it appears that your proof papers you posted were all in Alaska, unless I am mistaken. I was thinking that mining claims work different in Alaska. I know the state info you posted is not valid for all states. Mainly the time periods involved ( 45 days)/

So, are you arguing on something where you are correct according to Alaska law, but may be different in the states?

Just asking, I do not know the answer.

 

[chlsbrns]

chlsbrns, I am fairly new so do not have a real idea . But it appears that your proof papers you posted were all in Alaska, unless I am mistaken. I was thinking that mining claims work different in Alaska. I know the state info you posted is not valid for all states. Mainly the time periods involved ( 45 days)/

So, are you arguing on something where you are correct according to Alaska law, but may be different in the states?

Just asking, I do not know the answer.

Others have claimed that it is illegal so let them back up their claims by posting the law. If it is illegal there is a law stating that it's illegal. If States have laws showing it's illegal then there should be numerous laws showing it's illegal. Correct? They made the statements as if they know the facts, they said they would post the law, they have not posted the law.

 

[Alex Burke]

Hi sorry for late reply. I am not against selling claims in fact I think people should find good ones improve them and mine or sell them to someone who will. There are plenty of good people selling good claims and that isn't what bothers me or most people I assume.

What I am against is people stockpiling claims they have no intention of mining, improving, sampling or ever visiting them, then using deceptive practices to sell these claims for a quick profit.

I think as more people that get into the claim flipping business it will continue to inflate the market so people who actually want to mine have a tougher time finding a decent claim at a viable price.

I'm not sure of the exact law or if it exists the reason I state it is illegal is that the courts have ruled in favor of the miner in cases that were pointed out by a member in another thread and in this thread, you just don't want to interpret historical case law as law for whatever reason.

Honestly I don't really care weather claim flipping of the type I described is tech legal or not. I think it is immoral for various reasons and that is why I posted the link. I'm a hobby miner and it doesn't affect me personally at this point but I can see down the road if I or another hobby miner ever wanted to get a claim it will be harder to get one if people continue to get into staking claims for profit and not for mining.

 

[chlsbrns]

There are numerous exploration companies that do not mine they explore. When large deposits are found they sell the rights to mining companies.

The problem with claim flippers is that they claim without the requirement that a prudent person would believe that mining would be profitable. If you go to the link that winners provided and search you will see numerous examples of claims being sold that had no possibility of being profitable.

Legit people and companies sell claims that can be mined and turn a profit.

 

[Alex Burke]

Good points and I think we essentially agree, I should have clarified exploration companies are fine too. My rants are directed at the obvious claim flippers. Nice to meet you sorry for any confusion and my rabble rousing Take care. Alex

 

[boogeyman]

You must be referencing the Claim on Ebay (among others) where the Seller is holding what looks like a huge chunk of Gold. I got suckered by that particular seller five years ago on an Arizona Claim. The Claim was supposedly loaded with Gold and had been in His family for 90 years or since the Great Depression. I found out later it was Located in the Wife's name a few months before I bought it. There are some honest Claim Sellers on Ebay however the Claims many of them sell were recently located and staked with no known Gold History or an "Exaggerated" Gold History. There are many Claims in Arizona where the amount of Gold recovered will never even cover the cost of the Claim. Most guys who buy Claims would be better off joining a club and work the club claims. I truly believe they would find more Gold on Club Claims as other Club Members will often assist newbies on where to prospect. Also, I have noticed many Lode Claims for sale as Gold Mines that were never known for Gold, often copper, silver or other metals. A Claim seller on Ebay told me Ore from their Claims in Northern Arizona assayed out at 3-5 ounces of Gold to the ton. I had Copper States in Prescott test the same Ore and it assayed out at one ounce of Gold to 146 tons of Ore. As I often quote the Great Author Mark Twain who lost money on Gold Mines Himself. He wrote that a Gold Mine Seller is a Liar standing in a hole in the ground.

I think that guy has an ad up on either Phoenix or Tucson Craigs list now. Something about found a vein. Do a search for metal detectors and it'll pop up.

 

[chlsbrns]

One of numerous cases...

4 Appellant argues that BLM approved the documentation he submitted to prove the
discovery of a Previous valuable mineral deposit on the claims by returning date-stamped
originals of the same. The return of date-stamped originals does not signify approval.
“BLM’s acknowledgement and acceptance of filings submitted in accordance with the
requirements of 43 U.S.C. § 1744 [2012] do not by themselves ‘render valid any claim
which would not be otherwise valid under applicable law and [do] not give the owner
any rights he is not otherwise entitled to by law.’” United States v. Webb, 132 IBLA
at 168 (quoting 43 C.F.R. § 3833.5(a)).

the controlling question is whether there was a discovery of a valuable mineral deposit
on the claims prior to transfer to Appellant.

The “prudent man rule” is
complemented by the “marketability test.” Simply stated, in order to
establish the existence of a valuable mineral deposit it must be shown
that the mineral can be extracted, removed, and marketed at a profit.
United States v. Coleman, 390 U.S. 599 (1968).

In other words before transfer/sale of a claim there must be discovery of a valuable mineral deposit that a prudent man would think capable of turning a profit. There is no requirement that a claim be worked before selling only that the discovery of a valuable mineral deposit was found on the claim that has sufficent valuable minerals to be profitable.

In other words if you file a claim on ground where you did not discover a valuable mineral deposit capable of turning a profit you filed an illegal claim. A claim that can not be legally sold.

 

[fowledup]

I'd be willing to bet you could find something in the old District Charters that could be used to make a case, but the legality of "flipping" is really irrelevant as their are 2 or 3 legal ways they could still do it. There is a bigger problem and a missing part of the equation that should be addressed first. That being we as miners are not fulfilling our obligations as set forth in the Mining laws. Which is our responsibility to govern ourselves. We not the government are supposed to solve these types of issues. We don't have localized legally binding Mining District charters anymore with folks that monitor and enforce them. Instead we incorrectly think that the BLM or some other agency should address it- WRONG! We tend to rely on the courts to decide and rule on what we should be deciding for ourselves. Personally I think flipping sucks, if your not gonna work it you shouldn't be able to claim it-period. Now if someone wants to hire you to stake a claim for them, power to ya