claim broker shysters

[fowledup]

Every so often I check Craigslist and Ebay to make sure I don't see familiar pictures of claims for sale that I know for certain aren't. My lord if you want to see whose honest and whose not, now is a good time. Take a look and check out the lead in's to their sales pitches - "Dredgings legal", "the bans over", "dredging opens this June", "start mining immediately everything transferable" and my personal favorite "never been mined". People got no scrupples, fricken crooks!

 

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[Au-N-Rod]

I wanted to post this classic before it gets bought up as an example of a common predatory practice. I'm not 100% sure what they are actually selling. I guess its patented property right on the Cook Inlet that I'm sure you could just drop in and backhoe the gold right on the shore of this tourist area. They are using the gold angle to try and inflate the value drastically of this 5 acre triangle advertised at 200 bucks. When you click on more info it shoots you to a site where you can bid to make payments on this 40k POS property for the rest of your life. They never really mention gold claim but tag it as such so if you were searching for claims it shows up at top of list. I guess these people just irritate me a lot and wanted to post for other people's opinion and this seemed like the best thread to put it Incredible 5 Acres with Magnificent Cook Inlet Ocean Mountain Views Near Homer | eBay

Alex Burke, that $200 is the bid for down payment. The price is $37,900 according to the description.

 

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[goldenmojo]

40K for a POS property..... How can one possibly say no............

 

[Alex Burke]

Alex Burke, that $200 is the bid for down payment. The price is $37,900 according to the description.

Yep I think if you bid that 200 you might be liable for the rest too if you read the fine print lol. I should have maybe posted his other ad as a better example. He shows a picture of the patent and admits you'd have to clear the/a road,dig a well, no electricity but maybe if your neighbor wants to let you hook onto their grid

I think that real estate people are sort of in on the claim flipping and inflating the market at some level and that was I guess the point of sharing the link. They aren't publicly saying gold claim for sale but they are tagging their posts and building search engine optimization into their sites and in this case an eBay post. I searched "Alaska Gold Claims" and this was one of the first hits. It is hard to say outright this guy is a claim flipper or selling claims because he is careful in the descriptions but the fact he has posts tagged "gold claim" and SEO'd to show up tells me he is trying to pump up essentially useless prospecting land and pass it off as a vacation/retirement lot with a extra bonus to some poor soul.

 

[chlsbrns]

The bottom line is that there is no law that forbids selling claims. Anyone who says that it is illegal to sell claims doesnt know what they are talking about.

Anyone who sells a claim that is not a "valuable mineral deposit" is a fraud as a legal claim must have a distinct showing that the mineral could be mined, removed, and marketed at a profit. Proof of past or present profit is not a requirement. However, a profit must be a reasonable likelihood.

 

[Alex Burke]

I understand your points but staking claims you never intend to mine and selling them is illegal and I'm saying people get around this law in unique ways. Personally I wouldn't buy a claim online I would sample and stake it myself if I ever get that far. I am only posting this for awareness really and realize people will do what they want and think what they want about the ethics or legalities of it. I am against claiming land for the intention of just selling it and never mining it.

Re: listing it as a residential lot read my follow up post I hopefully make clear I do realize it isn't being expressly marketed as a claim.

I will try to refrain from posting stuff like this from now on because in a way your right and it's really none of my business it is more my personal views.

 

[chlsbrns]

staking claims you never intend to mine and selling them is illegal .

I would have to see the written law to believe that. Did you get your info by reading the law? If so please post a link. If you got the info from a forum then whomever said it is a wanna be expert?

 

[Goldwasher]

It's in the mining law and there are supreme court cases supporting it.
A claim filed with the intent to resell is not valid. You can work it it and resell at a later date that'd a gray area. If validation was enforced there's a very good chance the court would invalidate. When you locate a claim you are supposed to do so AFTER the discovery of a valuable mineral. To maintain validity you must meet prudence and marketability. Impossible if you put the claim up before your copy of county recording hasn't even been mailed to you yet.
Realizing it takes a citizen to bring the actual complaint and have the courts look into it ( not the duty of blm ) people take advantage. Doesn't change the actual law however.

The definition of integrity is doing the right thing even when no one is looking. Claim flippers have zero integrity. As they know the law and use created loopholes if you can even call it a loophole. Really it's uninformed buyers.
If you read the fine print on the eBay sellers pages they even speak of validity....and basically how they are reselling an un perfected claim.

 

[chlsbrns]

It's in the mining law and there are supreme court cases supporting it.
A claim filed with the intent to resell is not valid. You can work it it and resell at a later date that'd a gray area. If validation was enforced there's a very good chance the court would invalidate. When you locate a claim you are supposed to do so AFTER the discovery of a valuable mineral. To maintain validity you must meet prudence and marketability. Impossible if you put the claim up before your copy of county recording hasn't even been mailed to you yet.
Realizing it takes a citizen to bring the actual complaint and have the courts look into it ( not the duty of blm ) people take advantage. Doesn't change the actual law however.

The definition of integrity is doing the right thing even when no one is looking. Claim flippers have zero integrity. As they know the law and use created loopholes if you can even call it a loophole. Really it's uninformed buyers.
If you read the fine print on the eBay sellers pages they even speak of validity....and basically how they are reselling an un perfected claim.

You say so but haven't shown the law. Quote the law.

Discovery of a valuable mineral is a requirement of filing a claim. In other words Prudence and marketability have to be met BEFORE filing a claim.

 

[chlsbrns]

...

 

[Goldwasher]

You say so but haven't shown the law. Quote the law.

Discovery of a valuable mineral is a requirement of filing a claim. In other words Prudence and marketability have to be met BEFORE filing a claim.

Absolutely no true. You locate a claim. To maintain and prove validity it will have to be shown that your claims valuable resource is marketable. AND that you meet the prudent man test i.e. that a man with reasonable expense and effort can viably work the claim. There is no real pera mites and once a claims validity is being questioned in CIVIL court the owner of the claim will have to prove it's prudence..to keep it....not FILE IT.
your requested info will arise shorty even though I know it will most like turn this into the usual.

 

[chlsbrns]

Absolutely no true. You locate a claim. To maintain and prove validity it will have to be shown that your claims valuable resource is marketable. AND that you meet the prudent man test i.e. that a man with reasonable expense and effort can viably work the claim. There is no real pera mites and once a claims validity is being questioned in CIVIL court the owner of the claim will have to prove it's prudence..to keep it....not FILE IT.
your requested info will arise shorty even though I know it will most like turn this into the usual.

...where minerals have been found and the evidence is of such character that a person of ordinary prudence would be justified in the further expenditure of his labor and means, with a reasonable prospect of success in developing a valuable mine, the requirements of the statutes have been met.

BLM Alaska: "Discovery" of a Valuable Mineral Deposit

 

[chlsbrns]

Federal Mining Claims Information
ASK THE SELLER:
1. Is the claim state or federal? What is the claim name and number?
2. Who is the owner of record? Claims can have more than one owner. In such cases,
remember if only the interest of one owner is being transferred, you will be a partner with
other owners of record.
3. Ask for a recorded copy of the claim location certificate. All claims must be recorded in
the State Recording District Office in which they are located within 45 days after staking. A
recorded copy of the claim location certificate would have on it the Recording District Office
stamp, date of recording, document number or book and page number.
From this basic information you will have an idea whom to contact for further information.
The current status of a State mineral location can be determined by contacting the
Department of Natural Resources Public Information Center.
These offices maintain all case file records for mineral properties located on State or
State-selected land. If the mineral location is federal, contact the Bureau of Land
Management Public Information Office.
These offices can inform you whether or not the claim is in good standing administratively
by reviewing existing computer data or by existing paperwork available for review in the
case file records; however, other factors enter into claim validity — factors that are often
challenged in a court of law, especially if claim conflicts exist. These could include:
1. Whether the claim was established following the guidelines of appropriate State
or federal regulations, including:
• Whether a “discovery” of a locatable mineral actually took place. The seller
should be able to prove what type of discovery took place, i.e. geochemical
sampling, panning, or drilling. If a visit to the location is possible, obtain
permission to do your own sampling.
• Whether actual claim staking took place. Are posts or monuments erected? Are
boundary lines brushed or flagged? Or, was the claim “paper-staked”?
• Whether the claim was properly recorded within 45 days of the date of staking
in the District Recorder’s Office in which it was located.
2. Whether annual cash rental has been paid in a timely manner. On State
mining claims the rental year begins at noon on September 1 and ends at noon
on September 1 of the following year. Payments must be received no later than
November 30 of the same year. Annual rental amounts vary. For a Traditional
Location it is $35 per year for the first five years; $70 per year for the second five
years; and $170 per year thereafter for up to 40 acre mining claims. The rental for an
MTRSC Location (160 acres) is $140 per year for the first five years; $280 per year for the second five years and $680 per year thereafter. The penalty for failure to
make a timely payment is abandonment of the location.
NOTE: A word of caution, if the staking date of a mining claim on State land is prior
to September 1 of a particular year, two annual rental payments will be required.
The first is due no later than 45 days after the staking date of the location, and the
second, no later than November 30. An Annual Rental “Fact Sheet” is available from
the Public Information Center in Anchorage or Fairbanks.
On federal claims, the maintenance fee is $155 for every 20 acres or portion over 20
for placer claims, or $155 for lode, tunnel, and millsite claims due by September 1
each year. Rental fees for new claims are due when they are filed with the Bureau of
Land Management. Contact the BLM for details.
3. Whether Annual Labor or assessment work has been accomplished on a
continuing basis; was acceptable; and has been properly recorded and filed
according to State or federal regulations. (NOTE: Again, regulations vary
considerably here! Detailed information can be obtained by contacting the
appropriate information source for State and federal claims.)

***Be careful of
claims offered for sale after September 1. This is the end of the annual labor
year on both State and federal claims. Assessment work must have been
accomplished for any specific year prior to that date and recorded no later
than November 30th for the State claims and December 30th for federal
claims. Have the seller show you, in writing, a properly recorded affidavit.

4. Whether the claim is in conflict with other mineral locations. Claim conflicts
do occur and often end up in court when the parties involved cannot resolve the
problem themselves.

AS THE BUYER:
There are other important concerns you should be aware of or have clarified before taking
the big plunge of investing:
1. Is the seller legitimate and reputable? What is their mining, prospecting, or
geological background? Is it documented? If so, how can it be verified?
2. Have any valuable minerals ever been produced or found on the land? Historical
and geological reports on most areas in the State are available through the State
Division of Geological and Geophysical Survey or the U.S. Geological Survey. (See
agency points-of-contact page.)
3. Can the seller produce proof that he has operated on the claim? Depending on the
type of equipment used, permits are normally required before any type of mining
operation can begin. Operators who have submitted Annual Placer Mining Applications
(APMAs) for intended mining activity involving mechanized equipment can be
confirmed through a State Division of Mining, Land and Water Permitting Office.
4. Be aware of what rights you have with a mining claim! A common misconception
is that the buyer is actually buying the land. This is not true, unless the mining
property has been patented under federal law and the owner has title to the land.
(Patents are not issued under State mining laws.) Without a patent, the seller is only
transferring their actual interest in the mining claim to you. Ownership of the land
remains with the State, federal, or local government. As a claim owner, you have the
right to possession and extraction of the minerals; but,:
• You may not use a mining claim for purposes other than mining. Incompatible
uses would include residential use, placing any surface improvement on the
claim without written approval; and use of the claim to pursue recreational or
business interests such as hunting, fishing, trapping, guiding, or outfitting.
• You may not restrict public access without written approval from the land
manager.
• If a third party has interest in the surface estate of a State mining claim, such as
a grazing lease for example, you could be required to reimburse the lessee for
damages caused by the use or development of the location.
5. Is the claim compatible with the type of mining you intend to do? For example,
you intend to conduct suction dredging activities and the claim is located on a
salmon spawning stream. If this is the case, be aware of the time frame restrictions
as to when actual dredging can take place — generally from May 15 to July 15
annually. Note that on federal lands (federal mining claims), suction dredging is
authorized at the discretion of the Authorized Officer. Consultation with the specific
field office of jurisdiction for the area of interest is recommended before suction
dredging decisions are made.
6. Access — Are you familiar with the claim’s general location? Is it reasonably
accessible? If travel “cross country” is involved, check land status. Native corporation
land, parks, refuges, stream crossings, area plans, type of equipment, time frame for
intended travel, restrictive right-of-ways, etc., are potential problem areas. Charter
flights to a “fly-in” only area can be expensive.
7. Water Rights — Are existing water rights associated with the claim? Water
rights are registered with the State of Alaska and a certificate issued by the State’s
Department of Natural Resources, Division of Mining, and Land & Water. Will they
be transferred as part of the purchase? What is the availability of water in that
particular stream during the course of a mining season?
8. What permitting requirements are there for mining activities, which include
transportation of equipment; exploration; or actual mining, in Alaska? It’s important
to know any such activity must be fully permitted before “start-up” can begin.
9. Can mining even be conducted on your claim? In recent years, lawsuits against
the State and federal governments have restricted or stopped mining activity

 

[Goldwasher]

All part of the process of having a claim. You most definitely can have a claim located make the decision that it is prudent for you to move forward record....have your validity questioned go to court and have it challenged. I don't believe it happens all that often. And I do not have the details of cases with the minutes that show what metric was used to validate or invalidate a claim. YET the names on the location matter and if it was simply an over filing case the claims are considered CLAIMS based on intent prudence if brought up therefore is discussed after the fact of the actual location. Inherently do to command practice this could all be brought up after years or DECADES of filing fees assesment and waivers being filed at blm and recorded at the county in relation to the "CLAIM" In question...if it is gold it is valuable so CHECK......is it marketable....IT'S GOLD...DUH. so CHECK.....Prudence...well for me and the people in the above mentioned situations prudence is my decision until it ends up in court. Is it smart of me to work using methods that allow me to spend very little and essentially profit yes. I haven't taken a loss on my claim. I have records of what was dug and where so it will turn into a report. And it is done as part of development therfore it is legal assessment work and recorded every year. My filings allow my claim to stand and protect me from ANYONE making a discovery. AND if someone over files on us. We have ample evidence to maintain our location status.
We will continue our sampling and when we have enough of an idea to formulate a good plan will move forward with more of a production approach.
like I said NO ONE can legally work the ground we have claimed. We can sell at this point and would be able to give a whole lot more info to a buyer than any of these ebay sellers as I have been working thus ground since 2011. Unlike a claim flipper who goes puts in a post takes pics and sometime put the claim up for Dell after ONLY going to the blm....as in no county stamp!!!!!!.

I get the point you are trying to make but your not doing it very well sorry.

 

[chlsbrns]

All part of the process of having a claim. You most definitely can have a claim located make the decision that it is prudent for you to move forward record....have your validity questioned go to court and have it challenged. I don't believe it happens all that often. And I do not have the details of cases with the minutes that show what metric was used to validate or invalidate a claim. YET the names on the location matter and if it was simply an over filing case the claims are considered CLAIMS based on intent prudence if brought up therefore is discussed after the fact of the actual location. Inherently do to command practice this could all be brought up after years or DECADES of filing fees assesment and waivers being filed at blm and recorded at the county in relation to the "CLAIM" In question...if it is gold it is valuable so CHECK......is it marketable....IT'S GOLD...DUH. so CHECK.....Prudence...well for me and the people in the above mentioned situations prudence is my decision until it ends up in court. Is it smart of me to work using methods that allow me to spend very little and essentially profit yes. I haven't taken a loss on my claim. I have records of what was dug and where so it will turn into a report. And it is done as part of development therfore it is legal assessment work and recorded every year. My filings allow my claim to stand and protect me from ANYONE making a discovery. AND if someone over files on us. We have ample evidence to maintain our location status.
We will continue our sampling and when we have enough of an idea to formulate a good plan will move forward with more of a production approach.
like I said NO ONE can legally work the ground we have claimed. We can sell at this point and would be able to give a whole lot more info to a buyer than any of these ebay sellers as I have been working thus ground since 2011. Unlike a claim flipper who goes puts in a post takes pics and sometime put the claim up for Dell after ONLY going to the blm....as in no county stamp!!!!!!.

I get the point you are trying to make but your not doing it very well sorry.

What happened to the law that you said you were going to post?

I will edit and bold my previous to show that you are incorrect!

 

[Asmbandits]

Didnt Clay just post this a day or two ago? http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/gold-prospecting/491518-same-old-hustle.html

It's long established law that making a claim for the sole purpose of reselling it creates a void claim with no rights.

Those who believe otherwise haven't studied the law. From the Supreme Court in Cole v Ralph 1920 - one of the most important mining cases in history:

"In advance of discovery an explorer in actual occupation and diligently searching for mineral is treated as a licensee or tenant at will, and no right can be initiated or acquired through a forcible, fraudulent or clandestine intrusion upon his possession. But if his occupancy be relaxed, or be merely incidental to something other than a diligent search for mineral, and another enters peaceably, and not fraudulently or clandestinely, and makes a mineral discovery and location, the location so made is valid and must be respected accordingly. Belk v. Meagher, 104 U. S. 279, 287, 26 L. Ed. 735; Union Oil Co. v. Smith, 249 U. S. 337, 346-348, 39 Sup. Ct. 308, 63 L. Ed. 635, and cases cited."

Cole v Ralph showed that a mining claim in name only is not a form of property. Notice the many court cases cited stretching back to the 1880's. This was not a new concept when the Supreme Court made the Cole v Ralph ruling in 1920. Many claims have been declared void for lack of intent to pursue discovery. Any claim declared to be made for the sole purpose of sale is still open to location by other prospectors. Claims flippers are selling nothing but empty promises.

Heavy Pans

 

[chlsbrns]

Didnt Clay just post this a day or two ago? http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/gold-prospecting/491518-same-old-hustle.html

Obviously clay did make that post and obviously clay was incorrect. Show me the law to prove me incorrect!

 

[Asmbandits]

Obviously, your claim is not backed by any supporting law, yet you ask for other to post...? Obviously..

 

[chlsbrns]

Obviously, your claim is not backed by any supporting law, yet you ask for other to post...? Obviously..

I already posted the facts and laws that I obtained from the blm.

 

[Asmbandits]

I already posted the facts and laws that I obtained from the blm.

If your referring to the highlighted section of the info you posted , or any other info in that post I do not see anything related to creating claims with sole intent to sell. This was the topic you are asking about correct?

 

[chlsbrns]

If your referring to the highlighted section of the info you posted , or any other info in that post I do not see anything related to creating claims with sole intent to sell. This was the topic you are asking about correct?

Are you serious? Im referring to the screenshots that I posted and the whole post that includes the bold text. I can not provide anything other than clays incorrect statement because it does not exist! You.do not see anything related to creating claims with sole intent to sell because it does not exist!