"Challenge For Superstition Gold"

[rr-electricangel]

David,

Yes. Travis lived in Hood River, Oregon at the time. He visited his family in Texas, and on the way back to Oregon.........he said he found the stones (short version) on the NorthEast side of Highway 60 where it crosses Queen Creek. He even drew a map for his Uncle Robert.

To continue with what Kraig had posted some time ago, I can guarantee that Travis knew he was very ill. THAT is why, sometime around 1954-1955 Travis gave the Stone Maps to his Uncle Robert Tumlinson, who kept them in a box under his bed. About 1956-1957 Travis' Cancer may have gone into remission as it was then that he tried to get the Stone Maps back from Uncle Bob. Bob didn't want to give them back, and Travis had to pull a gun on him. They never spoke again after that, as evidenced by Dick Peck's Investigator (IIRC Elbert Love). In 1965 (four years after Travis died), when Love told Uncle Bob that Travis died in 1961 Bob was surprised to hear it.

Since a couple of people made a trip to Texas a few years ago, it is generally accepted that Travis did carve the Stone Maps. The only question now is whether or not he based them on an authentic Treasure Map from his Grandfather John "Pegleg" Tumlinson A well known Texas Treasure Hunter of the mid/late 1800s.


Mike

Thanks for responding Mike. I know you have championed the stones all these years and I tip my hat to you. I know there is strong debate about whether Travis Tumlinson carved the stones. My take on that is that after one of the Heart Stone's lobes broke off it probably freaked Travis out because he now knew that the stone maps were NOT indestructible. He knew how to carve so....make a replica. You mentioned some time ago about replicas being made in the 1960s and 1980s (if memory serves). Search through enough old newspaper articles about the Peralta Stone Maps and you quickly discover that the Mesa Museum was saying that replicas were being used (stated as such) in Tucson Citizen April 19, 1993. Obviously, they wanted to protect them in more casual situations where children could damage them. I also realize that the stone maps are a Frankenstein creation, with the carvings done at different times. Very difficult to give just a single opinion about which carvings were 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc... and especially the approximate year they were done. You realize of course Mike that the stones will reach their 100 year mark soon enough. Maybe that's why the Superstition Mountain Museum keeps them around. They'll simply be grandfathered in. No harm no foul...right?

So...anyway. I read through Gary Cundiff's wonderful research and see that 1948 is mentioned in at least two different letters. (Mathew Roberts, if you are out there, your SMJ article got me to actually read through all those legal documents of MOEL.)

Robert Tumlinson does a terrific job in describing the discovery by Travis. Mike, have you been one of the lucky ones to read through Travis's manuscript? Does Travis ever describe the way he discovered the stones? Fence, Mesquite Tree etc...

 

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[coazon de oro]

Howdy David,
In a lot of these LDM threads, talk of the PSM's tend to come up, so there may be things you have missed about them. There are many who try to make a buck, writing about them, or getting on film claiming to be following them. Others just want to be recognized, making claims of knowing where they lead.
For some reason most tend to believe lies, rather than the truth. The truth always surfaces in a sea of lies, just like oil in water. I have always said that the PSM's speak for themselves, I will give you two examples out of many that I know:
It was said that Travis claimed to have carved the "zeros" on the back of the Heart Stone to throw others off. We don't really know if he made that claim. In Ryan's made up story, the Heart Stone was broken by children, and glued back with tire patch glue.
The truth according to the PSM's, if you examine the bumper photo taken after they were washed down in a gas station, you will find that they were found already glued together. Most likely with pine resin & charcoal. If you look closely at them, you will also find that the adhesive is in the grove of of the carved zeros. That sure debunks both different stories don't it?
It is assumed that Travis' uncle Peg Leg has a map after which the PSM's were carved, just because he was a treasure hunter. I can assure you that Peg Leg had no such map. At first I believed Robert Tumlinson had made the "ground map", but the small r in his hand writing is different. I have no way of comparing Travis, and his partner's hand writing, but am confident that one of them made the "ground map".
What difference would it make if Travis went over, or under a fence, or what he used to dig up the stones? Would it be that you find yourself on the fence, trying to find out if they are real or not?

Homar

 

[markmar]

Hi Homar
Just to add something about the zeroes carved on the back side of the stone heart. IMHO, they were carved by the stone map maker and symbolize the six stashes of gold which are within the cave/tunnel.

 

[rr-electricangel]

Howdy David,
In a lot of these LDM threads, talk of the PSM's tend to come up, so there may be things you have missed about them. There are many who try to make a buck, writing about them, or getting on film claiming to be following them. Others just want to be recognized, making claims of knowing where they lead.
For some reason most tend to believe lies, rather than the truth. The truth always surfaces in a sea of lies, just like oil in water. I have always said that the PSM's speak for themselves, I will give you two examples out of many that I know:
It was said that Travis claimed to have carved the "zeros" on the back of the Heart Stone to throw others off. We don't really know if he made that claim. In Ryan's made up story, the Heart Stone was broken by children, and glued back with tire patch glue.
The truth according to the PSM's, if you examine the bumper photo taken after they were washed down in a gas station, you will find that they were found already glued together. Most likely with pine resin & charcoal. If you look closely at them, you will also find that the adhesive is in the grove of of the carved zeros. That sure debunks both different stories don't it?
It is assumed that Travis' uncle Peg Leg has a map after which the PSM's were carved, just because he was a treasure hunter. I can assure you that Peg Leg had no such map. At first I believed Robert Tumlinson had made the "ground map", but the small r in his hand writing is different. I have no way of comparing Travis, and his partner's hand writing, but am confident that one of them made the "ground map".
What difference would it make if Travis went over, or under a fence, or what he used to dig up the stones? Would it be that you find yourself on the fence, trying to find out if they are real or not?

Homar

Hello Homar, Thanks for commenting. I do understand all the secrecy when it comes to PSM research. Like all 'stoners' my belief in them is unshakable. I love all criticism of them as they are indeed one hell of a cross word puzzle to figure out. When I first tried to comment on these forums 10 years ago I didn't have a single book or article. I couldn't follow all of you folks. Loved listening to Jim Hatt (RIP) and his ideas and even got to make an intelligent comment even he could appreciate. Still, I love knowing all the details which seem like nothing to anyone else but do help me form a more detailed picture. I do have an opinion about why the PSM might have been partially buried so close to Highway 60 and Queen Creek. I have a structural engineering background (bridges etc.) which may at least be interesting to read. I was able to find construction photos of Queen Creek bridge from 1937 which may shed some light on Travis's discovery. I'll try to find one of the older threads dealing with Queen Creek bridge and put it there pretty soon. That's why I was asking about Travis's manuscript. I wanted to compare it against all of the letters and correspondence Gary Cundiff had found. Bless you Gary!

David Labay
(a.k.a. RR-ElectricAngel)

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Marius,
I honestly have no idea what the zeros on the heart stone indicate. You may be right, it's just one of those things that can only be verified when the end of the trail is breached.

Homar

 

[markmar]

Howdy Marius,
I honestly have no idea what the zeros on the heart stone indicate. You may be right, it's just one of those things that can only be verified when the end of the trail is breached.

Homar

Yes, you are right. I was stying on what a good psychic/dowser told me when i showed him a pic of the region and told him there is a treasure. I told him only there could be a tunnel with some rooms which have deposited gold items inside. After he did his " job " on reading his feelings, answered:
" YES YOU ARE RIGHT.. THE CAVE IS LIKE A LONG LONG HALLWAY.. INFACT THERE ARE TWO OF THEM.. ANCIENT CIVILIZATIONS LIVED UNDERGROUND FOR SURE.. BIG STACKS OF GOLD BARS ARE IN 6 LOCATIONS WITHIN THE TWO CAVES.. HOWEVER, THIS AREA -WITHOUT ANY DOUBT- IS FULL OF "SEVERE" EVIL MAGIC (INTENDED TO DISTRACT OTHERS FROM REACHING TO THEIR VALUABLE BELONGINGS), WHICH FACT MAKES DOWSING PRETTY IMPOSSIBLE FOR EVEN SKILLFUL DOWSERS BECAUSE EVERY HOUR YOU DOWSE THIS AREA YOU WILL SEE SAME TARGET MOVING FROM ONE PLACE TO ANOTHER.. THIS IS OF COURSE IF THEY MANAGED TO CATCH A TREASURE OR EVEN AN ACTUAL UNDERGROUND CAVE IN THE FIRST PLACE."

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Marius,

Heck, even Edgar Cayce couldn't make sense of it.

 

[markmar]

Homar

A psychic to do a good vision, needs to know some basic info about the target. More info, better read.
To Edgar Cayce was told only to tell the distance of the LDM from the stone marked saguaro, without seeing ever the saguaro or the region of the mine. And all this in a region with many gold mines.
Cayce " saw " the LDM from the two room ruin side of the gulch, but measured the distance to the place Waltz was panning gold at the S-E bend of Black Top Mesa, few decades yards from the marked saguaro. Visioned well, measured wrong.

 

[Blindbowman]

LOL

 

[somehiker]

New HC episode......

 

[markmar]

New HC episode......

I saw it yesterday. The same story with different artists. IMHO, the great lake with white herons was Salton Sea which in those days was full to the brim by the Colorado and Gila rivers.

 

[gollum]

I saw it yesterday. The same story with different artists. IMHO, the great lake with white herons was Salton Sea which in those days was full to the brim by the Colorado and Gila rivers.

OKAY MARIUS,
FINALLY, you and I agree! HAHAHA Yes, you must take a close look in GE at "The Superstition Hills" in the Mohave Desert in California. They are a small set of hills very close to the Eastern Edge of Fish Creek Mountain:

Those hills would have been a perfect island in Lake Cahuila. They are called Superstition Hills because of the sounds of groans and loud booms coming from some cave system deep underground (Chicomostoc maybe?). Lake Cahuila was a freshwater lake that was fed from the Colorado River. There would have been all sorts of Waterbirds, reeds and such. I have always liked the place for Aztlan. It is also MUCH closer to Mexico City than the Uintah Mountains in Utah! LOL But I will say that SOMETHING (PreColumbian) made it to the North Rim of the Grand Canyon. Research that I have posted on different sites regarding Gordon Smith's Ice Cave Mummies. I have always thought Mayan rather than Aztec up there. What I can say about the story is that Gordon spent about three years riding his horse around the periphery of a certain mountain looking for turtle carvings on boulders that represented "something" (I know what they meant, but some of this story has been under my hat for many years as Randy Bradford and Kanabite can attest). We know the Maya or their close trading partners made it up to Georgia, because its the only place in the Western Hemisphere that has "Mayan Blue" Clay deposits which they used as paint.

There is another story that talks about a painting in a cave in Arizona of Quetzalcoatle(Aztec)/Kukulcan(Maya). Not certain which as I have yet to see the cave painting.

Neat area - Mike

 

[Blindbowman]

that's interesting gollum for a few reasons . one i have been telling people for more then 15 years that i located the seven caves of Chicomostoc ,and i am not the only one that was looking there .at the time i was not looking for native sites .i am part Mohawk and won't go there foolishly , but i have seen Aztec drawings and at the same time near by saw what i can only describe as a sealed tomb and what is odd about that tomb is the stone work was not what i expected, i was thinking more in the lines of Aztec ,Olmec and even as far back as early Clovis but the tomb is sealed with a large stone door or what i feel is some kind of Block of stone weighing in around 10-12 tons ,i have a isolated picture of the stone work and its not the greatest picture but i feel after researching it . it looks to be Mayan . and i have no idea why it looks to be Mayan and not Aztec ..but some of the details are very interesting . one i have a small pen knife and i could not fit the blade between the door and the wall ... it is cut so tight i can not get the blade in between the wall and the stone in only a few places ..i have seen a lot of art work by many tribes and cultures but i don't know what culture those are if they are not Mayan . i don't know what they are ..i have been looking at thousands of stone work and still can not ID what type they are . the closest so far is Mayan ..but yet Chicomostoc is said to be the home of all tribes in north and south America . but i have never seen a match to that type of stone work .i will say there was a story about one of the seven cities being to the east of chicomostoc and that would be east from my site ,from what i have been researching Cibola had seven caves and there were seven cities that surrounded Cibola . and Cibola was not one of the seven cities , now i am not sure if it should be seven cities or Cibola and six cities surrounding it ..but what your talking about dose fit the description of one of the cities .

 

[gollum]

Hey BB,

Yeah, but I seem to remember you being deadset 100% certain that you had also found the Lost Dutchman Mine a few years ago. Remember when we all told you that you had located Chuck Crawford's Old Claims? I will give you a ton of credit though! While most people sit on their butts and armchair treasure hunt, you actually came out to the LDM Rendezvous and hiked out to the spot, and its not the easiest of hikes to get there! You get the plagiarized (Its from ANGRYCOP on youtube) patented P.O.B. (Pat On the Back) LOL

Two other things that make me think Mayan (rather than Aztec) are a neat Glyph Tile showing a number(date) beneath a glyph of the Mayan version of the path to the Underworld (Eb). Can't tell the complete number because the left corner is broken off. This tile was found by another TNet Member in a cave in the Superstition Mountains in Az.

Now, also in Arizona, there are the remains of a carving of what looks like an Aztec Jaguar Warrior. Maybe Pareidolia, but I don't think so. The area was described officially as an old Indian Temple with a newer Spanish Mission built on top just North of the Mexican Border.

Neat Area - Mike

 

[Blindbowman]

that second picture down is what those stone work on the tomb look like very close ...and i wondered if they were not some kind of calendar .but the Apache tried to destroy any sign other tribes in the area, but this dose not make logical sequences to me because i have seen another tomb just like the one i found and they say that is Aztec were there in Utah .saw it because i had found one just like it ..and yes i did find Chuck's Black platinum and diamond source but that had to do with the LDM . and yes i did find it . i just have no way to go back by my self . it will take a few people to open it back up .but yes no question what so ever it is the real LDM i can prove ...i am still going to look for the large cache if i can get back to the mine , i can feel it is still there right near by ..you must feel almost as old as i do by now .. its good to see your still around . i may need some feed back ,shhh i can prove it is the real LDM .no guessing at all ...

 

[gollum]

BB,

The Apache/NDeh never destroyed anything like that. Native Americans don't even like to talk about older civilizations, much less do something to anger those long dead people. Same reason Navajo/Utes don't talk about Wendigo or Skinwalkers. If they talk about them, they believe it will attract them.

Mike

 

[markmar]

OKAY MARIUS,
FINALLY, you and I agree! HAHAHA Yes, you must take a close look in GE at "The Superstition Hills" in the Mohave Desert in California. They are a small set of hills very close to the Eastern Edge of Fish Creek Mountain:
View attachment 1988350
Those hills would have been a perfect island in Lake Cahuila. They are called Superstition Hills because of the sounds of groans and loud booms coming from some cave system deep underground (Chicomostoc maybe?). Lake Cahuila was a freshwater lake that was fed from the Colorado River, so it was Freshwater. There would have been all sorts of Waterbirds, reeds and such. I have always liked the place for Aztlan. It is also MUCH closer to Mexico City than the Uintah Mountains in Utah! LOL But I will say that SOMETHING (PreColumbian) made it to the North Rim of the Grand Canyon. Research that I have posted on different sites regarding Gordon Smith's Ice Cave Mummies. I have always thought Mayan rather than Aztec up there. What I can say about the story is that Gordon spent about three years riding his horse around the periphery of a certain mountain looking for turtle carvings on boulders that represented "something" (I know what they meant, but some of this story has been under my hat for many years as Randy Bradford and Kanabite can attest). We know the Maya or their close trading partners made it up to Georgia, because its the only place in the Western Hemisphere that has "Mayan Blue" Clay deposits which they used as paint.

There is another story that talks about a painting in a cave in Arizona of Quetzalcoatle(Aztec)/Kukulcan(Maya). Not certain which as I have yet to see the cave painting.

Neat area - Mike

I'm glag at least we agree in something. To me all the evidences show as Aztlan the todays Salton Sea region. If put the ancient shores at 90 feet altitude ( blue line ), in the most regions of the lake ancient erosion shows this level, then we have a big island in the place you have pinpointed, at the west side of the Lake with another one much smaller at its NW.
This island could be the island which was missinterpreted as California, maybe derived from " the island of California ".

 

[Doc4261]

OKAY MARIUS,
FINALLY, you and I agree! HAHAHA Yes, you must take a close look in GE at "The Superstition Hills" in the Mohave Desert in California. They are a small set of hills very close to the Eastern Edge of Fish Creek Mountain:
View attachment 1988350
Those hills would have been a perfect island in Lake Cahuila. They are called Superstition Hills because of the sounds of groans and loud booms coming from some cave system deep underground (Chicomostoc maybe?). Lake Cahuila was a freshwater lake that was fed from the Colorado River, so it was Freshwater. There would have been all sorts of Waterbirds, reeds and such. I have always liked the place for Aztlan. It is also MUCH closer to Mexico City than the Uintah Mountains in Utah! LOL But I will say that SOMETHING (PreColumbian) made it to the North Rim of the Grand Canyon. Research that I have posted on different sites regarding Gordon Smith's Ice Cave Mummies. I have always thought Mayan rather than Aztec up there. What I can say about the story is that Gordon spent about three years riding his horse around the periphery of a certain mountain looking for turtle carvings on boulders that represented "something" (I know what they meant, but some of this story has been under my hat for many years as Randy Bradford and Kanabite can attest). We know the Maya or their close trading partners made it up to Georgia, because its the only place in the Western Hemisphere that has "Mayan Blue" Clay deposits which they used as paint.

There is another story that talks about a painting in a cave in Arizona of Quetzalcoatle(Aztec)/Kukulcan(Maya). Not certain which as I have yet to see the cave painting.

Neat area - Mike

Markmar and mike, thats interesting . As I believe just above the Fish mntns are the 3 buttes for Peglegs lost black coated nuggets. Believe its the bottom butte of lore where they are. Im sure your very familiar with the story. Rightly named Butte pass by Ocotillo wells.

 

[Carl995]

Theres only 1 reason to make the psm’s in the 1st place & that is to profit off of them…no other reason, theres just no need for a stone carving unless it was viewable. Also there is nothing pointing to the area they were supposeably found, so how would one return to the maps back then?….just my thoughts

 

[Blindbowman]

we may not agree with where the site is but i know way more then i am saying here ..as far as i know the shaman stone i found is the only one ever found out side of Mexico other then trade markets routes . and the stone has 92% fine pure wire gold in iron stain quartz .a lot of researchers never knew the shaman of chicomostoc were stone workers . after the Clovis or they may even have train the skill to the Clovis., but finding the stone ,the bone knife and other what i believe were pre Aztec treasures with in a 35 yard distance from the tomb makes me question almost everything now .. i can think of very few reasons why those items would be found in the same area .? you want to know the real foolishness about this when i tried to talk with the Olmec museum ,they told me i must be mistaken that no Olmec artifacts have ever been found in the US . and it cant be a Olmec stone .. lol jokes on them ..it matches one of their artifacts ...