Cave of gold bars

[Tom_in_CA]

i'm just a dumb hillbilly but its my opinion that a man bragging about finding a few coins and bashing treasure hunters...probably would be better off being on a coin hunters forum...not a treasure hunters forum

Yes. As I already said: I could anticipate the reply. That my finds (and those of most banner holders) are "a few coins". Ie.: small potatoes. Not to be compared with "treasure hunters" who are going for the "big ticket" items. Hence, sure, you have riches to hide (hence can't show proof in the pudding). As opposed to the rogue guy who bags a small bread & butter cache. Or a single gold coin, etc... . They don't have to worry the claim jumpers, IRS, etc.... I got it.

But we can rest assured that million dollar treasures are being found. And if you to go assess THE MEANS by which they are purportedly being found, it will result in the road-blocks we see here.

 

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[somehiker]

Yes. They put the pieces together in order to "go out and look" in the most likely places. And in the process, ELIMINATED the places less-likely. Which means (gasp), they had to eliminate silly leads. And, I'm sure, in the process, got criticism that they were "close-minded", "infidels", "limiting their potentials" , "failing to give it a try", etc....

In other words, they went with what THEY had determined was the correct place to search.
But in the end, they found it, didn't they ?
I've hit dead ends as well, in searches for different things. And sometimes decided it wasn't there or wasn't worth continuing the effort.
Been side tracked a few times too. But that makes it all the more challenging IMO.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

... But in the end, they found it, didn't they ? ......

By virtue of eliminating silly ghost story fruitless endeavors, yes.

 

[somehiker]

I've never had much interest or belief in ghost stories Tom. Doubt they did either.
Just narrowed their searches down to where further information gathering and fresh ideas pointed to.
That's why I don't waste my time on ghost hunting forums telling folks why. They would probably see me as a troll, even if I did.
And this one is about Treasure Legends, where serious participants share relevant information, theories and sometimes new ideas about the topic and their own searches, rather than claims of who's the top dog in banner finds from metal detecting.

 

[EarnieP]

I'm a generally skeptical guy by nature.
But I have no trouble believing stories about finds made in the Superstition. (I'm not talking about the obviously bogus "I found the Lost Dutchman Mine" stories by those bouncing in here for a few minutes.)

I believe most the stories shared about the posters themselves, their past kin folk, or their current and past friend's adventures. I enjoy the tales, and generally believe them without any concrete (gold) proof. I'm on this site for those tales, the history, and for the education I glean from the 'professors' here.
I understand the reasons why they may not post revealing concrete evidence.
Too much at stake for a 'banner' reward.

I've never heard first hand (that I know of) from people working and removing high grade ore from old mines within the Wilderness area. But as skeptical as I am, I believe some have done just that. (and may still be doing so.)
I have seen a couple of interesting pictures of some very nice looking ore which (again), I believe only from alluded stories, did come from the Superstition area.
I don't expect those who have made Superstition 'finds' to prove anything to me, or to any doubting coin hunters.
And oddly, the bigger the find, the less chance of confirmation there will be...

Just some random early morning thoughts.

BTW, I've made no 'finds', ...I'd wear better shoes if I had.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....Just narrowed their searches down to where further information gathering and fresh ideas pointed to.....

Yes. That's all we are corporately doing: Giving pro's & con's of methods to the ways to "narrow down". Best ways to discern when evidence "points to" something versus could point elsewhere. Yes, that's the purpose of forum discussions. And yes, we will all have different definitions of "best" It's all good.

.... I have no trouble believing stories about finds made in the Superstition. (I'm not talking about the obviously bogus "I found the Lost Dutchman Mine" stories by those bouncing in here for a few minutes....

Precisely. You too can discern that some folks, within the bigger-legend stories (Dutchman, etc...) are ... by all admissions .... "obviously bogus". That's all I'm saying. I'm just casting a wider net. To suggest that we apply the question of "is there more plausible answers/reasons ?" And I'll be the first to admit that .... on first blush .... we tend NOT to see the "more plausible answers/reasons". Because it's only human nature to want to believe ("lest you be left out"). So I'm just suggesting that the more we set that instinct aside, is the more we can distance ourselves from the "obviously bogus" conclusions that you too have seen.

 

[sdcfia]

That's where the "entertainment" part comes in. In reality, falling down a hole or having a rock fall on your head is the most prevalent hazard.
But still, since some of the legends include more exotic dangers to the unwary., it would be foolish to ignore the possibilities.

Chicken or egg ?
Both Howard Carter and Mel Fisher believed. They did the research, considered the evidence....which you would probably argue against as some did (getting nowhere)...., put the pieces together and went out and looked. That's how it's done.

Yes, Fisher believed and did solid research into undisputed documentation of the Atocha's load. He knew for a fact that the treasure existed. It took him sixteen years of searching until he found it. A serious professional. That's the way it's done.

Carter was hired by Lord Carnavon to search for tombs in the Valley of Kings. It also took sixteen years before the Tutankhamun payoff. These guys obviously had good intel - if you believe Egyptian history. Serious-as-a-heart attack professionals. That's the way it's done.

Yeah, a lot of wild-eyed gold fever victims have been been beckoned into the Superstitions the past 130 years looking for the "Lost Dutchman", for example. I imagine it's true a few folks over the years have found an old pile of ore, or even an abandoned Mexican mine or two here and there. Why not? It's the Southwest, where this stuff is not uncommon. However, when you consider the original rumors that sent the searchers a'searchin' (Waltz may have had a box of ore under his bed), and the multi-generational corruption, obfuscation, misdirection and fabrication of "evidence" (lies), and the abject failure to verify the legend (20,000,000 ounces of gold for the harvest!!), I guess you're right - this search is really for entertainment value only. Let's face it, dozens of books, hundreds of published stories, 50,000 posts on TNet alone with well over a million views, and what is the result? Folks are still arguing about how to spell the guy's name. I know a lot of folks are guarding their own "secrets" about this legend to this day and will go to the grave empty-handed, but "knowing it's there". Nothing wrong with that - a guy could spend his life doing things a lot less fun, I admit.

The difference between bona fide treasure legends and these pop fiction folklores is that, say, in Fisher and Carter/Carnavon's cases, these guys made the commitment because they knew for sure the chicken existed and they worked diligently until they recovered the eggs. In the pop fiction versions, if we can't even verify that there was a chicken, why do we think we're going to find her eggs? That's not the way it's done.

 

[markmar]

Marius,

It's my opinion that Harry did not give them exactly what he was looking for. He rode with them, and used them to get close to his cave. They were bird dogging for him. I believe someone came back later and removed the gold bars from the cave. They may have been reburied just west of Second Water Trailhead and dug up later. See Dave's story. I think your theory has more "wild goose" in it than mine. I've been there, have you? I have pictures, do you

Take care,

Joe

Joe

So , this is your " pet " theory ?
My theory has a goose , that from " the magic bean " fairytale .
Also , you have been there but you didn't done that .

 

[markmar]

Two clues slightly muddled in the re-telling, with the key words being triangle, piano and teepee. The same place I believe, with three boulders leaning against each other at the base of a cliff, leaving a piano-sized opening underneath. The arrangement of rocks reminded the woman of a "teepee" IMO, and the piano-sized opening narrows down to a small triangular passage at the back end. But that's not the real objective, although the larger room at the end of the passage might have, or once had gold bars within. I'm thinking the real objective was and is what was illustrated in this old painting, crafted in the mid 1500's.

View attachment 1475903

Regards:SH.

Wayne

Don't forget the " hourglass " clue from Conatser book . Maybe the most plausible/accurate clue . Something which could looks like a " X " ( ten ) Roman ?

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe

So , this is your " pet " theory ?
My theory has a goose , that from " the magic bean " fairytale .
Also , you have been there but you didn't done that .

Marius,

Since you avoided my questions, I will assume you have not been to your.....bean stalk, and have no pictures. I put my theory to a map close to 50 years ago. Since then, I have been exploring that Stone Map trail. I found many of the things marked on the maps, exactly where I placed them 50 years ago, before ever walking the trail.

I do wish you good luck and hope your time spent climbing the magic bean stalk is as rewarding as my search has been.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[gollum]

I love you guys. I am utterly fascinated by the subject of the psychology of treasure fever. I too was "taken by treasure fever" and "fell headlong into chasing treasure stories that no one could argue with".

But after a string of obvious lame spots, I began to ask pointed questions of the stories. And ... sure enough, under scrutiny, they fall apart. But at the time, prior to starting my hunts, I would have swore up and down that it's bullet-proof certain. What was happening is that I was a victim of memory bias. Of treasure fever. No one wants to dis-believe a treasure story "lest he be left out".

But after following the trail of dots on a few of the ones that sounded SOOOO CERTAIN, I could see, in retrospect, that it was merely a game of he said she said. And that more plausible explanations existed. So that going forward, I would hold a higher scrutiny of criteria.

If you want to call that "being a kill-joy skeptic", fine. But it's netted me the highest (15) gold coin count in CA so far. And probably 2nd or 3rd highest reale count in CA. (100+ and counting). And it was done by ELIMINATING the places where you DON'T want to waste your time at. Ie.: "being a kill-joy".

Tom,

I have to admit from the look of things, you may have a bit of "Karl von Mueller-itis". He basically said that he spent a lot of time and money hunting for the Dutchman, and found diddly-squat. It must not exist. He never even entertained the possibility that he may not have been mentally up to the task, or lucky enough to fall into the Dutchman. That is a BIIIIIIIIIIG ego at work my friend. Humility plays a large part in who is willing to share privileged information with you. In my case, I was very lucky to have initially fallen in with a very successful land treasure hunter. Not one person here has ever heard of him. I lucked into meeting him in 1994. He had retired at 50, and lived in Newport Beach, Ca. He didn't share much of anything (even details of previous finds). All I ever heard was "Well, I don't really talk about that." After two years, he showed me an 8x10 of him kneeling next to a stack of gold bars 3ft x 3ft x 6ft. His share was his retirement find. After that, he started sharing some of his knowledge, and even took me out to different places to show me what authentic monuments looked like. Even with all his assistance, real treasure hunting is a huge learning curve. If it weren't for that initial help, I would have probably have given up long before I ever found anything valuable (my biggest find to date netted about twenty grand, not at retirement status yet HAHAHA).

Its not for everybody, and I have pity for anybody starting at square one by themselves, or learning based on some of the self professed know-it-alls online. Although I know more than most, and I am self taught in Colonial Spanish Paleography and translating old documents, I will be the first to admit I don't know everything. I have studied Jesuits in the New World for over twenty years. I know more about the Order than most Non-Jesuit Catholics. I know a lot about how they hid things, and even some of the symbols and monuments they used. What I know is only the tip of the iceberg of their secret knowledge. If you run into anybody that claims to know the secrets of the Jesuits, you can laugh in their faces, and tell them I told you to. The greatest majority of the Jesuits don't even know the secrets to their hidden wealth. In the New World, most of the Jesuit Priests that did have that knowledge likely died in transit (as many did) during the suppressions, which would be the only reason that seventy-odd years after the restoration of the Order, a Jesuit Cache of 70,000,000 Spanish Gold Dollars (escudos), 20,000 pounds of gold dust, and 28,000 pounds of gold ingots was found in the cellars of the old Jesuit College at Rio de Janiero (July of 1891).

If you choose not to believe, then that is absolutely fine. I completely understand why a reasonable person would poopoo the reality of enormous unfound treasures. It strains belief that such things could exist. Like I said, if I hadn't been privvy to what I have seen, read, and heard, I wouldn't believe it either.

Nobody should ever piss in Tom's Wheaties for not believing, or intensely questioning claims. We all do the exact same thing right here every time someone pops in out of nowhere claiming to have found the Dutchman. Am I wrong?

Mike

 

[markmar]

Joe

Climbing my bean stalk , I reached this place ( picture below ) . Just above the old corral is the " big hole "/cave from the Trail stone map .
Also , the Trail is not what you believe , something like a long trail in the mountains , but a short trail that avoid obstacles in a very but not large rocky country .
For the shake of the arguments , look at the left from the supposed " big hole " in the picture and maybe that bend reminds you a part of the Trail ( reversed ) ?

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe

Climbing my bean stalk , I reached this place ( picture below ) . Just above the old corral is the " big hole "/cave from the Trail stone map .
Also , the Trail is not what you believe , something like a long trail in the mountains , but a short trail that avoid obstacles in a very but not large rocky country .
For the shake of the arguments , look at the left from the supposed " big hole " in the picture and maybe that bend reminds you a part of the Trail ( reversed ) ?

View attachment 1476101

Marius,

Nice picture! I'm convinced. Good luck with the loot.

Take care,

Joe

 

[markmar]

Marius,

Nice picture! I'm convinced. Good luck with the loot.

Take care,

Joe

Thank you

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Mike, thank you for the on-going dialogue. I respect your answers and effort very much. You are obviously open to alternate views. And I hope I can be just as fair to your views.

.... I know more about the Order than most Non-Jesuit Catholics....

Now here's where you and I really should sit down with a 6-pack and talk sometime, if you're ever in my neck of the woods, or if I'm ever in your neck. Here's why:

I am a docent at Carmel mission. Located at it's current location since 1771. Which, as you can surmise, was still-during the Jesuit period (albeit just a few more years). And as a docent , I've actually obtained permission to hunt around the mission (long story). And have first-hand look at the dug artifacts that came from all around the grounds during laborious sifting that went on during the rennovations and restoration periods of the 1930s to early 1950s.

When the current lay of the buildings was taking places (which went in/on the exact footprint of the original quad, using original floors, and oft-times incorporating original walls that still stood at-the-time), they had the presence of mind to sift every square inch of ground, before the modern parochial school wings, museum wings, etc.... were done up. This was in the era before detectors. Of course.

And as a result, the mission has one of the best "dug artifact" collections of all the 21 missions. Scores of coins, buttons, medallions, etc.... Of which my contribution (got to detect some of the grounds) added a few more reales, some phoenix buttons, etc... And the age of some of the coins and such are definitely towards that earlier period . Eg.: reales with dates from early to mid 1770s that show little to no wear.

So .... here's where I have to challenge you (with much respect) : Despite the colorful notions that the Jesuits were rich beyond their wildest dreams, .... and despite your text about all the escudos circulating about, blah blah, well ...... guess how many gold coins are in the mission's collection ? Zero. Guess how many of the dug crucifixes, medallions, adornments, etc... were gold ? Zero.

I don't know how rich you think the successors to the Jesuits were in the CA mission chain, but I assure you: If you think the missions were "rich", it is NOT born out in the archaeological record. Sorry. I don't want to implicate myself as to where else in CA I've hunted (I'll plead the 5th), but .... I assure you .... there is none of this gold you speak of that bears out what you are saying. DESPITE period targets that come up.

I know of a few escudos that have turned up. But they are later 1820s, 1840s, etc.... 1 in Half moon bay area (rancho land), 2 in San Juan Baustista (the area where soldiers during the Mexican war were stationed), etc.... I have found a few of my gold coins @ mission areas, but they were all American (1830s to 1840s). Yet I have found 100 or more reales. From the 1750s to the beginning of the CA statehood period. And trust me: There is NOT the gold you paint the picture of.

And the AZ and TX missions were no better off. No richer. In fact: Look at their ornateness, versus the CA missions. And you will see they were not at all elaborate. Go figure: Any supplies reaching up through the desert southwest to reach that frontier (Santa Fe, etc...) had to come up all the way through the Chihuahua desert by land.

And I know what you'll say next: Perhaps they weren't bringing all this gold up to their northern frontiers, but ... by golly, they had mines capable of producing tons of gold. Right ? But this is flying in the face of logic. I will save that for another post, and let you answer to what I've said so far.

thanx.

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike, thank you for the on-going dialogue. I respect your answers and effort very much. You are obviously open to alternate views. And I hope I can be just as fair to your views.



Now here's where you and I really should sit down with a 6-pack and talk sometime, if you're ever in my neck of the woods, or if I'm ever in your neck. Here's why:

I am a docent at Carmel mission. Located at it's current location since 1771. Which, as you can surmise, was still-during the Jesuit period (albeit just a few more years). And as a docent , I've actually obtained permission to hunt around the mission (long story). And have first-hand look at the dug artifacts that came from all around the grounds during laborious sifting that went on during the rennovations and restoration periods of the 1930s to early 1950s.

When the current lay of the buildings was taking places (which went in/on the exact footprint of the original quad, using original floors, and oft-times incorporating original walls that still stood at-the-time), they had the presence of mind to sift every square inch of ground, before the modern parochial school wings, museum wings, etc.... were done up. This was in the era before detectors. Of course.

And as a result, the mission has one of the best "dug artifact" collections of all the 21 missions. Scores of coins, buttons, medallions, etc.... Of which my contribution (got to detect some of the grounds) added a few more reales, some phoenix buttons, etc... And the age of some of the coins and such are definitely towards that earlier period . Eg.: reales with dates from early to mid 1770s that show little to no wear.

So .... here's where I have to challenge you (with much respect) : Despite the colorful notions that the Jesuits were rich beyond their wildest dreams, .... and despite your text about all the escudos circulating about, blah blah, well ...... guess how many gold coins are in the mission's collection ? Zero. Guess how many of the dug crucifixes, medallions, adornments, etc... were gold ? Zero.

I don't know how rich you think the successors to the Jesuits were in the CA mission chain, but I assure you: If you think the missions were "rich", it is NOT born out in the archaeological record. Sorry. I don't want to implicate myself as to where else in CA I've hunted (I'll plead the 5th), but .... I assure you .... there is none of this gold you speak of that bears out what you are saying. DESPITE period targets that come up.

I know of a few escudos that have turned up. But they are later 1820s, 1840s, etc.... 1 in Half moon bay area (rancho land), 2 in San Juan Baustista (the area where soldiers during the Mexican war were stationed), etc.... I have found a few of my gold coins @ mission areas, but they were all American (1830s to 1840s). Yet I have found 100 or more reales. From the 1750s to the beginning of the CA statehood period. And trust me: There is NOT the gold you paint the picture of.

And the AZ and TX missions were no better off. No richer. In fact: Look at their ornateness, versus the CA missions. And you will see they were not at all elaborate. Go figure: Any supplies reaching up through the desert southwest to reach that frontier (Santa Fe, etc...) had to come up all the way through the Chihuahua desert by land.

And I know what you'll say next: Perhaps they weren't bringing all this gold up to their northern frontiers, but ... by golly, they had mines capable of producing tons of gold. Right ? But this is flying in the face of logic. I will save that for another post, and let you answer to what I've said so far.

thanx.

Tom,

From my own research into Jesuit wealth, I have come to the same conclusions as you. I gave up dreaming of Jesuit treasures years ago. Mike has done a lot of personal research, but he is still, I think, a believer. Without a treasure being dug up, and authenticated, I doubt the issue will ever be settled.

Good posts!

Joe Ribaudo

 

[deducer]

Mike, thank you for the on-going dialogue. I respect your answers and effort very much. You are obviously open to alternate views. And I hope I can be just as fair to your views.



Now here's where you and I really should sit down with a 6-pack and talk sometime, if you're ever in my neck of the woods, or if I'm ever in your neck. Here's why:

I am a docent at Carmel mission. Located at it's current location since 1771. Which, as you can surmise, was still-during the Jesuit period (albeit just a few more years). And as a docent , I've actually obtained permission to hunt around the mission (long story). And have first-hand look at the dug artifacts that came from all around the grounds during laborious sifting that went on during the rennovations and restoration periods of the 1930s to early 1950s.

When the current lay of the buildings was taking places (which went in/on the exact footprint of the original quad, using original floors, and oft-times incorporating original walls that still stood at-the-time), they had the presence of mind to sift every square inch of ground, before the modern parochial school wings, museum wings, etc.... were done up. This was in the era before detectors. Of course.

And as a result, the mission has one of the best "dug artifact" collections of all the 21 missions. Scores of coins, buttons, medallions, etc.... Of which my contribution (got to detect some of the grounds) added a few more reales, some phoenix buttons, etc... And the age of some of the coins and such are definitely towards that earlier period . Eg.: reales with dates from early to mid 1770s that show little to no wear.

So .... here's where I have to challenge you (with much respect) : Despite the colorful notions that the Jesuits were rich beyond their wildest dreams, .... and despite your text about all the escudos circulating about, blah blah, well ...... guess how many gold coins are in the mission's collection ? Zero. Guess how many of the dug crucifixes, medallions, adornments, etc... were gold ? Zero.

I don't know how rich you think the successors to the Jesuits were in the CA mission chain, but I assure you: If you think the missions were "rich", it is NOT born out in the archaeological record. Sorry. I don't want to implicate myself as to where else in CA I've hunted (I'll plead the 5th), but .... I assure you .... there is none of this gold you speak of that bears out what you are saying. DESPITE period targets that come up.

I know of a few escudos that have turned up. But they are later 1820s, 1840s, etc.... 1 in Half moon bay area (rancho land), 2 in San Juan Baustista (the area where soldiers during the Mexican war were stationed), etc.... I have found a few of my gold coins @ mission areas, but they were all American (1830s to 1840s). Yet I have found 100 or more reales. From the 1750s to the beginning of the CA statehood period. And trust me: There is NOT the gold you paint the picture of.

And the AZ and TX missions were no better off. No richer. In fact: Look at their ornateness, versus the CA missions. And you will see they were not at all elaborate. Go figure: Any supplies reaching up through the desert southwest to reach that frontier (Santa Fe, etc...) had to come up all the way through the Chihuahua desert by land.

And I know what you'll say next: Perhaps they weren't bringing all this gold up to their northern frontiers, but ... by golly, they had mines capable of producing tons of gold. Right ? But this is flying in the face of logic. I will save that for another post, and let you answer to what I've said so far.

thanx.

Some errors you've made:

1771 was not "during" the Jesuit era. What I like to call the era of the "old-school" Jesuits came to a full stop in 1767, period. The order as reinstated in 1814 was much more lenient, domesticated, and a lot less aggressive (in the conquistador sense of the word).

The 21 missions you speak of were all founded under the Franciscans, presided over by Junipero Serra by order of the King of Spain in 1769 (the Portola/Serra expedition) as the king wanted to secure "Alta (upper) California" before the Russian or British did.

What missions the Jesuits had in California were by and large centered around Baja, or what was called "lower" or "old" (antigua) California, and there were around 17, I believe. The new territory north of what today is San Diego was Alta California.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Joe, thanx for chiming in.

.... Without a treasure being dug up, and authenticated, I doubt the issue will ever be settled....

and here's where you and I will probably beat our heads against the wall in trying to settle the issue with the "faithful". If you EVER tried to say "where's the proof?" and "Has any of the dreamer Jesuit gold hunters EVER found a Jesuit treasure vault they claim dot the southwest ??" Here's what they'll say :

"Sure. They have been found. But the persons who found them have kept quiet. For fear of the IRS, thieves, claim-jumpers, and cultural heritage laws. Hence you will never see show & tell from this camp of big-game hunters. "


oh gee, how are you going to counter that ? I try to point out that md'rs are posting their show and tell trophy bragging rights finds ALL THE TIME, on all sort of md'ing forums. Right ? Even valuable finds. Even caches. These fears haven't seemed to stop them, eh ? To which the faithful will reply that those are all small potatoes find (individual coins, small bread & butter caches) , hence not in the same camp as the treasure vaults they are finding.

But rest assured, they are finding Spanish gold all the time. Yup, ok, got it.

 

[azdave35]

Joe, thanx for chiming in.



and here's where you and I will probably beat our heads against the wall in trying to settle the issue with the "faithful". If you EVER tried to say "where's the proof?" and "Has any of the dreamer Jesuit gold hunters EVER found a Jesuit treasure vault they claim dot the southwest ??" Here's what they'll say :

"Sure. They have been found. But the persons who found them have kept quiet. For fear of the IRS, thieves, claim-jumpers, and cultural heritage laws. Hence you will never see show & tell from this camp of big-game hunters. "


oh gee, how are you going to counter that ? I try to point out that md'rs are posting their show and tell trophy bragging rights finds ALL THE TIME, on all sort of md'ing forums. Right ? Even valuable finds. Even caches. These fears haven't seemed to stop them, eh ? To which the faithful will reply that those are all small potatoes find (individual coins, small bread & butter caches) , hence not in the same camp as the treasure vaults they are finding.

But rest assured, they are finding Spanish gold all the time. Yup, ok, got it.

only an idiot would post a valuable find...as soon as word gets out you made a valuable find the parasites begin to circle....govt agencies...state agencies..and then you have family...brother in laws...father in laws..etc....you'd be broke in a month...lol

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Some errors you've made:

1771 was not "during" the Jesuit era. What I like to call the era of the "old-school" Jesuits came to a full stop in 1767, period.

Deducer, I was going by Gollum's stated date of 1773 It's in his post #124. He had said "1773", and I did not check my own material in the matter.

BUT THE POINT IS MOOT ! It matters NOT which school of clergy were up in the northern spanish frontier, and which years someone could quibble about. The bottom line is: These missions were lucky to get supplies at all at times. There is no gold lying hither and yonder littering the bottom of caves and mines here. If anyone believes so, me thinks they've watched one-too-many episodes of Raiders of the Lost Ark. JMHO