Cave of gold bars

[markmar]

I guess I would qualify as one of those heard from a trusted source people.

In the case of Harry LaFrance's cave of gold bars, I knew a number of the people who helped him in his search to re-find his cave. One of them was my Uncle, Chuck Ribaudo. All of the searchers, that I have talked to, held the gold bar with the crown marked on it in their hands. I have no (zero) doubt that the gold bar was the real thing. I can't say the same thing for Harry's story of how and where he found it, but believe it to be a true story.

I believe everyone would have lied to me, except Chuck. That alone gives some weight to the others accounts. That would include Ernie Provence and Tracy Hawkins who both told me the story a number of times before they passed away. I think the story was first published by Bob Ward, which would not give me confidence in it's truthfulness, but he was told the story by Tracy Hawkins. Both Ernie and Tracy were my uncle's partners, all involved in many prospecting hunts as well as the LDM Store. Believe Chuck was a primary investor for the store. They split up over that deal, and never talked to each other again.



I have always believed that Ted DeGrazia was involved, in some way, with the Stone Maps. I have one of Ted's books inscribed to "The LaFrance's".



If any of those stone maps has the hint of reality in it, I believe Harry's cave of gold bars is the main treasure it points to. That location is marked by the large black hole in this map with the small black dot over it:



Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

Joe

You are right about the cave of gold in the stone map , with the difference is not the main treasure and is not where LaFrance told he found it . LaFrance said the spot was a triangle rock at the size of piano and Crazy Jake in one of his clues said " Look for a triangle of rocks " . Both had the correct clue but for different places and maybe from different sources . Also both were chasing a wild goose .

 

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[sdcfia]

... It's why I always say to forget what was written, and what someone said. Look at what they do. If Noss had been a fraud, why did he fight the government for the right to get back into Victorio Peak until he was murdered in 1949? Why did his wife Ova (who saw the bars) fight to get back into Victorio Peak until her death in 1979? Not the actions of fraudsters.

Mike

Yes, look at what they do. Your supporting example (previously discussed in excruciating detail in the Victorio Peak sub-forum) may not be the strongest one you could have chosen. As you know from extensive documentation in the Gold House trilogy, book 1, Doc Noss ran a constant con on investors throughout the 1940s - both at Victorio Peak ("trying to remove debris blocking the treasure room"), and with selling fake gold bars (his family's own assay revealed that they were copper bars with a little gold and silver in them). Ova? Doc conned her too, before he ditched her for a younger woman. Poor Ova believed everything Doc fed her. Well, "what Doc did" caught up with him all right.

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe

You are right about the cave of gold in the stone map , with the difference is not the main treasure and is not where LaFrance told he found it . LaFrance said the spot was a triangle rock at the size of piano and Crazy Jake in one of his clues said " Look for a triangle of rocks " . Both had the correct clue but for different places and maybe from different sources . Also both were chasing a wild goose .

Marius,

It's my opinion that Harry did not give them exactly what he was looking for. He rode with them, and used them to get close to his cave. They were bird dogging for him. I believe someone came back later and removed the gold bars from the cave. They may have been reburied just west of Second Water Trailhead and dug up later. See Dave's story. I think your theory has more "wild goose" in it than mine. I've been there, have you? I have pictures, do you

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

gollum, on the one hand , yes, you admit most are wive's tales. Embellished (telephone game) or even simply entirely made up. But then .... in order to distance yourselves from those silly ones: You have various clues. For the ones you do believe in, that are given as examples of how your particular one is the exception to the rule.

But what I don't understand is: How do you & cactus-jumper know that the various juicy clues you're citing (to distance yourselves from the ghost story ones), AREN'T SIMPLY the "clues" of those that are merely stories ? After all: They can be based in actual events, names, dates, etc.... too, right ? And even if you put in time and boot-leather to find more "juicy clues", then they too, likewise, might simply be more of the "he-said-she-said" clues game.

And mind you: All the sources you would read, would (as I spelled out in previous post) be in first-person 100% affirmative tense. Ie.: seemingly "source info". That is therefore "beyond silly". Or that guide or witness that you guys might have as your proof, they too might simply be a part of the daisy-chain of dreamers, eh ?

For example: This is the psychology of those in the Philippines who think they've got figured out where Yamashita treasure is. When you point out to them that 100 maps are circulating, they will dismiss the other 99. And assert that their single one is the real mcCoy. And ... yup ... they'll have compelling proof of lineage, of how they have it on good authority that the person who passed it down to them, was the son or grandson of the soldier who witnessed it, blah blah blah. And they fail to realize, that ... SO TOO do all the other 100 maps of "sure-fired location" also have stellar lineage . Naturally, when/if you start to scrutinize the stories (that they simply got from whomever the map came from), they each fall apart.

So too could the treasure lores that you speak of here be of the same vein. eh ?

Tom,

A good question which requires a rather lengthy reply. It would also depend on whether you are talking about a treasure that has been recovered, or one that has still to be found.

A previously recovered treasure story is only made believable to reasonably skeptical minds by two things: Evidence and Source. Evidence such as photographs, newspaper articles, etc may constitute enough proof to be believable. An impeccable source may negate the need for YOU to need further proof it was real. Although without some serious bonifides, it may be impossible for others to believe your friend's story.

For stories regarding a treasure yet to be recovered, is where things can get very convoluted, and you often have to rely on what your nose says about a story and the teller. This only comes after many years of experience. Sometimes, stories that seem silly on their face, seem more reasonable after new facts emerge. Take, for instance, the story about "The Cave of 1000 Steps". I first saw this story in a book by David Hatcher Childress. A NM Treasure Hunter named Harvey Snow related the story to Childress (yes, Harvey Snow is the father of our very own Roger Snow aka Treasureminder). Most reasonable people would place this story in the "Silly" Category. After getting to know an old gentleman by the name of Oren Swearingen (who told a very different version of the story), I had to place it in more of a reasonable story category. Swearingen's Version didn't have any bow and arrow booby trap on the bottom step, or superheated underground rivers of sulfur, or offshoot caves of armor or treasures. Swearingen's Version simply told of a cave with a very natural looking entrance that opened into a small ante-room. This room curved into another small room with what looked like a rockfall booby trap before you get to the stairs. You could see past it, but couldn't move through without moving rocks. If you want the details of how the booby trap works, just ask (its kind of long winded). When you shine a flashlight through the rocks, you see man made steps going down as far as the light can see. THAT IS IT! Oren told me that his one big regret is that he (nor anyone he knew of) had been able to see what was at the bottom of the steps. When he knew his time was short, he sent me a large envelope of papers and pictures. TOPO Maps with an X Marks the Spot for the cave entrance. Now, the story doesn't seem quite as silly! Biggest issue is that it is within the confines of White Sands Missile Range. It is in an area that is heavily patrolled (as I understand it).

Here is the cave entrance:

View attachment 1475825

Another good tool that should be in EVERY Treasure Hunter's Arsenal is a good working knowledge of REAL HISTORY! For instance: If someone told me they knew about a Jesuit Treasure hidden by them in 1789, I can immediately call BS, because I know the Jesuits were suppressed worldwide as an Order in 1773. If someone shows me a Spanish Description of a treasure written in a handwriting style called "Procesal", that was dated 1785, I know that style of handwriting was mostly out of style by about 1640. It would cause me to have serious doubts about the veracity of the document. There are a ton of ways to legitimize or delegitimize a story.

Mike

 

[somehiker]

Joe

You are right about the cave of gold in the stone map , with the difference is not the main treasure and is not where LaFrance told he found it . LaFrance said the spot was a triangle rock at the size of piano and Crazy Jake in one of his clues said " Look for a triangle of rocks " . Both had the correct clue but for different places and maybe from different sources . Also both were chasing a wild goose .

Two clues slightly muddled in the re-telling, with the key words being triangle, piano and teepee. The same place I believe, with three boulders leaning against each other at the base of a cliff, leaving a piano-sized opening underneath. The arrangement of rocks reminded the woman of a "teepee" IMO, and the piano-sized opening narrows down to a small triangular passage at the back end. But that's not the real objective, although the larger room at the end of the passage might have, or once had gold bars within. I'm thinking the real objective was and is what was illustrated in this old painting, crafted in the mid 1500's.



Regards:SH.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....
View attachment 1475903 .....

Does anyone here recall the Raiders of the Lost Ark movie series ? Temple of Doom, etc..... ? So too was the Hollywood plot filled with puzzles to be solved by ancient maps, riddles, cryptograms, etc.... Why am I reminded of that in these posts ? haha

 

[somehiker]

Does anyone here recall the Raiders of the Lost Ark movie series ? Temple of Doom, etc..... ? So too was the Hollywood plot filled with puzzles to be solved by ancient maps, riddles, cryptograms, etc.... Why am I reminded of that in these posts ? haha

Because you can't understand why the "treasure" legends recorded throughout history are of interest to so many.
As is the overall history of the people and places connected to those same legends.
It bothers you in some way, but you follow our posts anyway, even finding the time to comment on those that so obviously trigger you.
That's a good thing though, cause it keeps the thread rolling along. haha
Where do you think Hollywood writers get their ideas for that form of entertainment ?
What was it that planted the seeds for the many "Mummy" and Egyptian treasure tales in print and on film ?
And that's just one example.

 

[azdave35]

Where do you think Hollywood writers get their ideas for that form of entertainment ?
What was it that planted the seeds for the many "Mummy" and Egyptian treasure tales in print and on film ?
And that's just one example.

i'm beginning to think ole California tom doesn't like us

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Where do you think Hollywood writers get their ideas for that form of entertainment ?....

Haha, good question. What came first, the chicken or the egg ?

1) Are md'rs beliefs in "poison darts" and "booby traps" and "puzzle cryptograms" and "uncanny markers" the result of watching one-too-many re-runs of Raiders of the Lost Ark ? Or

2) Has Hollywood simply made movies about this factual reality ?

I'm sorry to say that I'd side with #1.

 

[azdave35]

Haha, good question. What came first, the chicken or the egg ?

1) Are md'rs beliefs in "poison darts" and "booby traps" and "puzzle cryptograms" and "uncanny markers" the result of watching one-too-many re-runs of Raiders of the Lost Ark ? Or

2) Has Hollywood simply made movies about this factual reality ?

I'm sorry to say that I'd side with #1.

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/76ae97af-8f98-4889-8e98-29d868a01db1

 

[Tom_in_CA]

i'm beginning to think ole California tom doesn't like us

I love you guys. I am utterly fascinated by the subject of the psychology of treasure fever. I too was "taken by treasure fever" and "fell headlong into chasing treasure stories that no one could argue with".

But after a string of obvious lame spots, I began to ask pointed questions of the stories. And ... sure enough, under scrutiny, they fall apart. But at the time, prior to starting my hunts, I would have swore up and down that it's bullet-proof certain. What was happening is that I was a victim of memory bias. Of treasure fever. No one wants to dis-believe a treasure story "lest he be left out".

But after following the trail of dots on a few of the ones that sounded SOOOO CERTAIN, I could see, in retrospect, that it was merely a game of he said she said. And that more plausible explanations existed. So that going forward, I would hold a higher scrutiny of criteria.

If you want to call that "being a kill-joy skeptic", fine. But it's netted me the highest (15) gold coin count in CA so far. And probably 2nd or 3rd highest reale count in CA. (100+ and counting). And it was done by ELIMINATING the places where you DON'T want to waste your time at. Ie.: "being a kill-joy".

 

[Tom_in_CA]

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/76ae97af-8f98-4889-8e98-29d868a01db1

"My eyes are wide open".

Ironically, that statement works both ways. And it also assumes that the person who disagrees with you "has eyes shut". As opposed to perhaps they have simply got-it-right. Truth is, by definition "close minded".

 

[azdave35]

I love you guys. I am utterly fascinated by the subject of the psychology of treasure fever. I too was "taken by treasure fever" and "fell headlong into chasing treasure stories that no one could argue with".

But after a string of obvious lame spots, I began to ask pointed questions of the stories. And ... sure enough, under scrutiny, they fall apart. But at the time, prior to starting my hunts, I would have swore up and down that it's bullet-proof certain. What was happening is that I was a victim of memory bias. Of treasure fever. No one wants to dis-believe a treasure story "lest he be left out".

But after following the trail of dots on a few of the ones that sounded SOOOO CERTAIN, I could see, in retrospect, that it was merely a game of he said she said. And that more plausible explanations existed. So that going forward, I would hold a higher scrutiny of criteria.

If you want to call that "being a kill-joy skeptic", fine. But it's netted me the highest (15) gold coin count in CA so far. And probably 2nd or 3rd highest reale count in CA. (100+ and counting). And it was done by ELIMINATING the places where you DON'T want to waste your time at. Ie.: "being a kill-joy".

tom...plenty of goodies have been removed from the mountains over the years...just because you failed doesn't mean everyone did...even the people that don't find anything have a blast looking

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.....just because you failed doesn't mean everyone did...

Failed ? How did I fail ? I am the record holder of fumble fingers gold coin-finds in CA (15). And amongst the title holders for most reales. So how do you figure ?

I am sure there's folks who have found caches that have more than 15 gold coins, or 100+ reales in CA. But in-so-far as fumble fingers single losses, my #'s/results speak for themselves.

And by all means, no one here is denying anyone the fun of looking. But the last I checked, the forums are for the pro's and con's of best methods. And that's all we're talking about. No one's denying anyone their efforts, fun, etc....

 

[azdave35]

Failed ? How did I fail ? I am the record holder of fumble fingers gold coin-finds in CA (15). And amongst the title holders for most reales. So how do you figure ?

I am sure there's folks who have found caches that have more than 15 gold coins, or 100+ reales in CA. But in-so-far as fumble fingers single losses, my #'s/results speak for themselves.

And by all means, no one here is denying anyone the fun of looking. But the last I checked, the forums are for the pro's and con's of best methods. And that's all we're talking about. No one's denying anyone their efforts, fun, etc....

...well...like you have stated in your past posts...how do we know you didn't fabricate your tales?....how do we know you didn't plant the things you say you found?....you aren't shy about calling ldm hunters a bunch of liars and fools...how do we know you are telling the truth?

 

[somehiker]

Haha, good question. What came first, the chicken or the egg ?

1) Are md'rs beliefs in "poison darts" and "booby traps" and "puzzle cryptograms" and "uncanny markers" the result of watching one-too-many re-runs of Raiders of the Lost Ark ? Or

2) Has Hollywood simply made movies about this factual reality ?

I'm sorry to say that I'd side with #1.

That's where the "entertainment" part comes in. In reality, falling down a hole or having a rock fall on your head is the most prevalent hazard.
But still, since some of the legends include more exotic dangers to the unwary., it would be foolish to ignore the possibilities.

Chicken or egg ?
Both Howard Carter and Mel Fisher believed. They did the research, considered the evidence....which you would probably argue against as some did (getting nowhere)...., put the pieces together and went out and looked. That's how it's done.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

...well...like you have stated in your past posts...how do we know you didn't fabricate your tales?....how do we know you didn't plant the things you say you found?....you aren't shy about calling ldm hunters a bunch of liars and fools...how do we know you are telling the truth?

Good questions. All you have to do is scroll back through the "finds" sections of multiple forums, to see that there's been ample show & tells.

And ..... oddly ..... the IRS has never come knocking on my door. Thieves have been strangely absent (perhaps my 2 rottweilers have something to do with that? ), and no archies have come to accuse me of the 50 yr. rule. But , of course, I know the drill: That's because they were all small potatoes individual coins.

As for my ability to have simply been fabricating and photo-shopping all those show & tell posts: Sure: It's possible. And so too could those guys who've posted objects MUCH MORE VALUABLE (mel fisher, etc...) have simply been leading us all astray. Right ? Yet in the case-at-hand, we haven't even gotten to first base yet. There hasn't even been a show & tell post TO EVEN TAKE ISSUE WITH , in the first place. (for all the rolled-out-reasons). So ... what are we talking about ?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

...., put the pieces together and went out and looked. ....

Yes. They put the pieces together in order to "go out and look" in the most likely places. And in the process, ELIMINATED the places less-likely. Which means (gasp), they had to eliminate silly leads. And, I'm sure, in the process, got criticism that they were "close-minded", "infidels", "limiting their potentials" , "failing to give it a try", etc....

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.....how do we know you are telling the truth?

Sure. I could be lying. All the show & tell posts I've done over all the forum show & tell sections could be nothing more than photo-shop trickery. Right ? And so too could all the other show & tell posts be doing the same. And yet, we all relish to vote on each other's stuff, read show & tells to vicariously enjoy, share our holes-in-one, etc..... Yet they are all suspect, right ?

But the difference is: If some claimant NEVER EVEN POSTS A SHOW AND TELL TO BEGIN with (d/t the IRS, thieves, and cultural heritage), then .... what are we talking about ? Who's accused them of trickery ? Who's accused me of trickery ? What are we talking about ?

 

[azdave35]

Good questions. All you have to do is scroll back through the "finds" sections of multiple forums, to see that there's been ample show & tells.

And ..... oddly ..... the IRS has never come knocking on my door. Thieves have been strangely absent (perhaps my 2 rottweilers have something to do with that? ), and no archies have come to accuse me of the 50 yr. rule. But , of course, I know the drill: That's because they were all small potatoes individual coins.

As for my ability to have simply been fabricating and photo-shopping all those show & tell posts: Sure: It's possible. And so too could those guys who've posted objects MUCH MORE VALUABLE (mel fisher, etc...) have simply been leading us all astray. Right ? Yet in the case-at-hand, we haven't even gotten to first base yet. There hasn't even been a show & tell post TO EVEN TAKE ISSUE WITH , in the first place. (for all the rolled-out-reasons). So ... what are we talking about ?

i'm just a dumb hillbilly but its my opinion that a man bragging about finding a few coins and bashing treasure hunters...probably would be better off being on a coin hunters forum...not a treasure hunters forum