Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

[Danimal]

Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

My arm was up to the elbow with my Lesche fully down when I finally got deep enough for my pinpointer to sound off. This was in a very compacted, mineralized soil matrix. Wheat pennies are found here at 6" often.

Under a loupe, what at first appears to be a battleaxe looks like an stylized bird. The pendant appears to be bronze, is quite heavy, and has no casting marks around the edge, and shows clear working marks so it seems to be carved in metal, not cast.

This was found in NE Ohio.

Any ideas?

 

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[mxtswinger]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

According to some of my reading, the butterfly in Ancient Greece was symbolic of the soul, and that the Minoans made their axes in the effigy of the butterfly.

 

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[Danimal]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

What an interesting find! I must disagree with some of the opinions posted here, being metal does not make it automatically post-Columbus, the Americas have several copper working native cultures as well as the precious metals. If it is bronze, it is NOT Native American, as no Native American culture made bronze - however if this is genuine, it may be solid evidence of ancient visitors to America from the Old World.

Yeah, my mistake. My intended point was that metal alloys were not used in the western hemishphere prior to Columbus. I forgot about copper. I still believe the one image is that of a bird, and not an axe. There is also what appears to be a peace sign in the center of that image.

it's pretty clear now that the imagery is Minoan/Crete, and the figure is the "Prince of the Lilies"...the other side is an double sided axe called a labrys, a Minoan symbol of female fertility. The item in the center of the axe handle is not a peace sign, but probably rather a vulva.

The real question now is what is this item doing in Ohio and what is it's age? Is it a recent reproduction (I don't think so because of the encrustation when found)?
If it is real, what is it's value and how did it get there?
I have sent emails to several sources that should shed some light on this.

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

Hello Danimal,
The Cretan link looks very promising - and the depth of the find (eighteen inches) points to a more likely very ancient deposit than modern days. The Cretan civilization was a very naval-oriented culture, which had cities without even any fortifications around them, for their navy was so powerful that no enemy could successfully reach their island empire (until the eruption of Thera wiped out most of their navy, if not all). So it IS possible that a Minoan visitor could have reached America, and Ohio just happens to be where several strange finds that seem to have come from "across the pond" in ancient times so my own hunch is this is NOT a modern fantasy jewelry piece (though that possibility remains) but a genuine ancient article. I hope you will research it further, and would appreciate if you would keep me posted. The site where you found it deserves more detecting time too, perhaps even a regular old dig-and-screen of the exact spot (about three feet square or so) to look for relics that might help date the time when the piece was deposited (beads, pottery shards etc). Do you think the landowner might grant permission for that? If so, and you do screen a yard or two of dirt - remember to keep a running journal of everything you find at what depths etc and take a bunch of photos too.

Still the most interesting find I have seen here on T-net in years, though there have been a smattering of ancient coins found they are usually Roman and Roman coins are popular with collectors so the odds are they were lost in recent times. I will definitely follow up on your thread here!

Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Danimal]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

Thanks Oroblanco for the encouragment!

As I look at the item more, it almost seems to me that the amulet was once larger and has been reworked to a smaller piece (actually my son noticed a few things)
First, the hole in the top is off-center. The top edge of the hole is VERY thin, but unlike holes that thin and elongate at the top due to wear, this hole appears nearly perfectly round still, and yet the top edge is wafer thin. Almost like the OUTER edge of the amulet was reduced towards the hole

Second, the Labrys on the other side is NOT centered

Third, on the figure side, there is the faint beginning of a lily design on the lower left edge. It makes no sense for the maker to include a partial piece of what was a lily on the Fresco. What makes more sense is that the figure was once larger and has been reduced. This would also fit in with what Smithbrown said about typical Minoan artwork depicts complete figures, not partial torsos.

Lastly, the outer edge of the amulet looks like it has been worked and worn smooth.

Dunno though...still waiting for a few experts to chime in. Dr Eric Cline, a specialist in these matters, has already returned an email asking for picture files to be sent, which I have done.

 

[mxtswinger]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

You have got me hooked as well. I've been on the puter almost continuously since seeing this. The peopling of the Americas is one of my keen interests.

I agree that this definitely resembles the Prince of the Lilies fresco. However, from looking at the downloaded pics on my computer, it appears that the face is that of a bearded Western European individual. I may be crosseyed from staring at it too much, and I don't have the object to study in person but here is a rendition of what I see.

Danimal- you have the pendant, so feel free to let me know if I am way off base.

Anyhoo, since the Celtic peoples traded heavily with Greece and settled as far as Turkey, my latest wild theory is that you have a Celtic rendition of the Prince of the Lilies with their likeness sbubstituted for the original.

Oro's advice is great and if you can't excavate, I would at least get a large sample of the matrix at the level of the pendant and hang on to it. A witness/photographer may also behoove you.

Pleeez keep us posted as to your progress. Good luck. Kevin

 

[mxtswinger]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

I think we were posting at the same time. I agree with you 100%. I had started to mention this earlier. Looks like a portion of a larger work.

 

[Danimal]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

MXTSwinger:

Here's my take on the details of the obverse

 

[mxtswinger]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

I see it now.

I sure hope you are right. Makes for a much better story.

You are familiar with the Chinese in North Carolina story aren't you?

 

[Danimal]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

I see it now.

I sure hope you are right. Makes for a much better story.

You are familiar with the Chinese in North Carolina story aren't you?

Wha?...didn't they build the railroads?
Hey, we all grew up watching David Carradine!!

 

[azelismia]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

the side with the axe/bird looks like it has a screw head in the center? does it or is that just a design?

 

[Danimal]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

the side with the axe/bird looks like it has a screw head in the center? does it or is that just a design?

I believe that is supposed to be a respesentation of a vagina.

The Labrys double-bladed axe was a Minoan sacred symbol of fertility I believe.

 

[SolomonKey]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

"...however if this is genuine, it may be solid evidence of ancient visitors to America from the Old World."
The problem with that is without provenance, it isn't evidence of anything, except that it exists.

 

[Danimal]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

While I await either representative examples or pictures showing it is of recent origin, or the chiming in of experts who may or may not want to examine the piece, I am not getting too excited about it.
If someone showed me tomorrow that it was made in 1960 and had proof, then that would suit me fine.
Of COURSE I would prefer that it is an ancient artifact of some sort. There certainly are other artifacts that do not fit the paradigm of who has been here before us or the Native Americans.
I just dug this thing up and want to know more about it.

 

[Wroclawski]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

Well, to me, the photo bears a resemblance - as others said - to an ancient artifact, perhaps Minoan. It may even prove to be ancient, but without provenance, there is no way of knowing how it got there, or when.

 

[mxtswinger]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

SK and Ski are correct in that since the pendant has been removed from it's archaeological context by a non-professional without documentation, it will be next to impossible to prove its discovery location. That's why on second thought I don't think excavating the surrounding area by non-professionals would be a good idea. If there is corroborating evidence remaining in the soil it should be left to the pros or even well trained amateurs. With enough circumstantial evidence proof is not always required to establish a consensus. If proof is impossible it would still be nice to have enough evidence to permit "believers".

Danimal- Here's another possible source for info/help. http://www.asaa-persimmonpress.com/
They are great folks.

 

[Danimal]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

SK and Ski are correct in that since the pendant has been removed from it's archaeological context by a non-professional without documentation, it will be next to impossible to prove its discovery location. That's why on second thought I don't think excavating the surrounding area by non-professionals would be a good idea. If there is corroborating evidence remaining in the soil it should be left to the pros or even well trained amateurs. With enough circumstantial evidence proof is not always required to establish a consensus. If proof is impossible it would still be nice to have enough evidence to permit "believers".

Danimal- Here's another possible source for info/help. http://www.asaa-persimmonpress.com/
They are great folks.

First of all, this was dug up in the area of an athletic field at a Middle school in NE Ohio. While speculation exists that the soil in this area may not be native soil (probably ISN'T, as it differs so greatly from the surrounding soil) I am sure that any type of "excavation" would be silly. I am sure I could go back to the area where it was located and probably find the exact hole, but it was darkening quickly when found, and I do carefully fill and pack any and all holes I create. When I have dug as deep as I did here (and this area is almost devoid of grass) I will pack the surface quite hard.
However this item got there, it is certain it isn't FROM there.
Whether anyone "believes" in it's antiquity or lack-of-antiquity is irrelevant to me.
I found it. I reported what I found. I am asking for information on WHAT it is and WHERE and WHEN it was made.
Simple to me no?

If nothing becomes of this...if no one is interested in looking at it in person, doing metalurgical analysis, etc, or no representative examples are shown to exhibit it's mass-production at a more recent time, I will consider it a very unique find, and probably sell it.

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

Hello again,

This statement: "That's why on second thought I don't think excavating the surrounding area by non-professionals would be a good idea. "

tells me that the poster has not tried to ever get professional archaeologists to investigate a site. I have tried, repeatedly, and the "pros" absolutely refuse to even have their names associated with any kind of site that might turn up the "wrong" kinds of evidence. By all means, go ahead and try, but don't count on seeing a university 'dig' set up shop there....

An amateur "dig" is respected, IF it is documented with photos, a journal recording all finds or lack thereof, and done with methodical process. Just going in with shovels and picks and digging as if excavating a cellar hole will not do, it has to be done layer by layer, in slow progress of an inch or less per layer removed and sifted. Even changes of color in the dirt or sizes of the stone cobbles must be noted in a journal of record, and the names of everyone involved in the 'dig' (it helps to include some kind of contact info as well.) and whom is in charge.

Also, not to ruff feathers but the finding of artifacts like this, regardless of HOW they were discovered, is considered important evidence when they are found in Europe, Africa or Asia, (if you doubt it, read the Explorator and note how many important finds are made by metal detectorists in England, for one example) but when found here in the Americas, it is instantly dismissed as "nothing". Not in my book. You will have better luck in finding the truth by getting a trained archaeologist to examine it, but NOT tell them exactly where it was found.

I have posted this on T-net before, but a strange stone amulet was found in Maine some years ago in a stone tomb; the amulet had a strange inscription and a depiction of a man in armor like you see on Greek and Roman soldiers. I sent photos of the amulet to an expert epigrapher at a major Ohio university (I made the mistake of sending photos to the Penn State experts and telling them where it was found, so got NO reply) and asked him if he could decipher the strange writing. He wrote back that he could read is easily, and said that it was either early Phoenician or very early Greek and says "Goddess (or queen) of the night". He asked where it was found, and when I told him he wrote me an angry letter telling me that I could not use his name in any way connecting him with this find, and he would deny having even seen photos of it. I can understand the fear of risking one's employment and professional ridicule, but you should be aware of this fear too so DON'T tell them you found this in America or you will have problems. As for getting professionals to dig, good luck - I made a number of attempts (concerning several sites) and they will not even look at them if the chance exists that the site might turn up "controversial" evidence - the current state of archaeology in the United States is almost a joke! The Smithsonian Institute even shut down a 'dig' in the midwest about two years ago, when they found relics that indicated they would find human remains if they dug any more. The reason they publicly stated, for NOT completing the dig? They knew that any remains they might find would be "..of the wrong race." Don't take my word for it, look into it for yourselves.

Oroblanco

 

[mxtswinger]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

Thanks Oro for clarifying what I intended to say but failed to do so. We are absolutely 100 % in agreement. What I should have said was "in a non-professional manner" instead of "by a non- professional. The "professionals" are arrogant beyond belief and don't give a rat's a-- about archaeology unless it will put a feather in their professional cap and unless it furthers their political agenda. That is exactly why I mentioned the amateur route and included a link to the only amateur group that I am familiar with.

As to my experience getting sites checked out I am batting 50/50 on two attempts.There is a huge multi component site a mile from my house that is eroding into the river and being helped to do so by looters digging out the midden. I told my archaeologist neighbor (a nice guy, just misguided )about this 6-7 yrs ago. His response was that "they already know about it" and "they (looters)should be shot", but nothing has been done about it. I tried again this summer and was blown off.

This past spring, my father plowed a new area for a garden and I surface hunted and carefully plotted my finds which indicated a single component Early Archaic camp (rare). I showed my finds to the neighbor archy and was surprised when he said he would try to get UK to investigate. I assisted with the initial surface collection. After this my neighbor archy seemed anxious to drop out of the process. Since he is fairly low on the totem pole, my guess is he was afraid of getting his peepee whacked by his superiors for getting out of line in their pecking order. Here's a couple pics from the garden site.

I can't wait for your book. How long?

 

[mxtswinger]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

Hate to disappoint you Danimal, but your questions of what, when and who are not simple ones. Hopefully you have patience to see the thing through.

Sure, there is a very slim to none chance of any further corroborating evidence at the site, but if it is there, that would be the quickest way to answer your questions.

Good Swingin

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

Hello MXTSwinger,

I see that we are in agreement! You have had better luck than I had! What a COOL site to find! Paleo sites are pretty rare, so that really IS a feather in your cap! I am surprised that you managed to get the pros to come and investigate though - we had found a site in NE PA with stone monuments, including a dolmen (the type with three supporting stones under a huge boulder top) and an altar stone and not one pro would even come to look at it.

Part of the problem in American archaeology has to do with "political correctness" for they dare not give any support to anything that might run counter to some claims of Native Amerindian tribes; hence that massive legal battle over Kennewick man (the clearly Caucasoid remains found in the bank of the Columbia river, near Kennewick Washington. I found a web site put up by a professional American archaeologist who complained of this very real resistance and even interference with the search for history, and mentioned one incident where he happened to be in the Four Corners region at a dig with several tribal members present. The tribal members walked off and the sound of breaking pottery could be heard, so our archaeologist went to investigate. He found the two tribal men smashing Navajo pottery on the ground scattering fragments all over. He asked them what the heck they were doing, and they calmly told him they were "making the land Navajo". Anyway an amateur investigation is perfectly alright as long as it is done carefully and well documented. Believe it or not, I have had professional archaeologist friends recommend this step, then to send a report with your findings to a university archaeology dept which could well result in raising their interest enough for a professional investigation. I would not go and dig up a football field area, just a square yard right on the spot where this amulet was found. If even a single pottery shard can be found or a single bead, for instance, you then have enough 'ammo' to take to the pros and stand some chance of getting them involved.


Danimal, I mentioned that some very interesting artifacts have been found in Ohio, check out SOME of them on this site:
http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/outliers.html
ancient iron working in Ohio?
http://www.iwaynet.net/~wdc/
An ancient Numidian coin found in Ohio:
http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/coins/numidia.htm
Roman coins found at the Falls of the Ohio:
http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/coins/fallsoh.htm

This is only a sample, and your amulet looks to be a possible winner to join these mysterious artifacts.

(Sorry for plugging my own book project, now in fourth draft but I HOPE to be done soon. If you are interested in this idea of ancient visitors to America, I did contribute to an anthology titled Underground, the Disinformation Guide to Ancient Civilizations edited by Preston Peet and in bookstores now - many excellent authors contributed including Erik von Daniken, Graham Hancock, Robert Shoch and others. I think this amulet might be good evidence!)

your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco