Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

[Danimal]

Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

My arm was up to the elbow with my Lesche fully down when I finally got deep enough for my pinpointer to sound off. This was in a very compacted, mineralized soil matrix. Wheat pennies are found here at 6" often.

Under a loupe, what at first appears to be a battleaxe looks like an stylized bird. The pendant appears to be bronze, is quite heavy, and has no casting marks around the edge, and shows clear working marks so it seems to be carved in metal, not cast.

This was found in NE Ohio.

Any ideas?

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Family Maps of Hinds County, Mississippi, Deluxe Edition - Grab it through Amazon!

[Danimal]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

Thanks everyone for the emails and private messages showing interest and helping research this find.
So far, no one has been able to find anything remotely similar to show that it is of farily recent origin, and several experts in Archeology have requested pictures and are looking into it.
I promise I will be careful about keeping it safe, and not letting it out of my hands to any "experts" that want to examine it.
I have already received several decent offers on selling it, more than I would have imagined if it IS a modern piece (which they obviously don't think it is)
I'll keep everyone updated with any new info I get.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

DR.ÖTEK Metal Detector, Waterproof Gold Detector, Pinpoint & Terrain Modes, Professional Metal Detector - Grab it through Amazon!

[mxtswinger]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

Thanks for the update. Glad to here you've been warned of the dangers of loaning it out. The university wanted the arrowheads above badly, but I knew I would never see them again. They can come here and study them to their hearts content.

Best of luck
Kevin

 

[bakergeol]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

I was just curious at the composition of the pendant. The patina does suggest bronze instead of copper but experts have been wrong before. Remember the Ice Man and his bronze axe- Turned out to be a copper axe. Perhaps a jeweler's acid test would confirm bronze- That would completely eliminate Native American origin.

George

 

[Danimal]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

I was just curious at the composition of the pendant. The patina does suggest bronze instead of copper but experts have been wrong before. Remember the Ice Man and his bronze axe- Turned out to be a copper axe. Perhaps a jeweler's acid test would confirm bronze- That would completely eliminate Native American origin.

George

George,
Have you taken the time to actually read this thread? I am NOT trying to be rude, but the figure on the pendant is quite obviously of Minoan origin, there's no mistaking that. That combined with the history of the Labrys' importance to Minoan culture pretty much eliminates Native American origins.
Juding my the emails and such I have received, eventually one of the experts will want to run metalurgical analysis on the item (but i agree with you that it really does appear to be bronze. It's way too heavy to be copper at it's dimensions)

Dan

 

[Danimal]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

I have received responses from two of the four people I sent a request for help identifying this item. None seem too excited or interested, and seem to assume it's NOT ancient BECAUSE of where it was found. The first was from Dr. Brian Redmond, Directory of the Archeology Dept. at the Cleveland Museum of Natural History. Emails and phone numbers removed for privacy reasons.



Dear Dan:

Your message just came through. I looked at the images but can't tell you much else. I would think that a specialist in Mediterranean archaeology could tell you more about the images on the piece. But also have someone else look at it who is able to identify fraudulent artifacts. These are not always the same individual. Usually the antiquities dealers can identify fakes whereas many scholars cannot (but they may not admit it).

Best of luck,

Brian Redmond


At 03:34 PM 9/29/2006, you wrote:

forwarding from my home email address in case it's my work server stopping the other email

Dan Byers


-----Original Message-----
From:
To:
Cc:
Sent: Thu, 28 Sep 2006 2:58 PM
Subject: item found, need help identifying

Dr. Redmond,
It was suggested that I contact a local specialist or archeologist concerning identification of an item I recently (last Sunday) unearthed while hunting for old coins with my metal detector. The item was dug at over a foot deep in an athletic field in a Cleveland area school. The soil it was taken from seems to not be the original dirt from the area and it is speculated by myself and another metal detectorist that it was brought in from a riverbed as fill when the school was made. Coins found in this area of different soil have been older than others from the surrounding soil.
It is a (apparently) bronxe pendant or amulet that has designs on each side depicting what appears to be figures of Minoan/Crete importance. The figure resembles the "prince of Lilies" fresco found at Knossos in Crete, and the other side depicts a Labrys, or double sided axe that was a fertility symbol of the Minoans.
I have learned these things about the item because I posted a request for help identifying the item on three internet metal-detecting web forums. The main thread can be read here:
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,49936.0.html
You can also see the pictures there, but in case you don't feel like registering, I will attach a few .jpgs to this email. I have also emailed a Dr. Eric Cline at someone else's suggestion. He is a specialist on this type of material. He has requested from me additional closeups, which I have provided.
As I said, I thought maybe someone local to me would be interested in the item. I copied my home email address in this email. Please send any reply to that email address as well as this one. I can be reached my cell phone at 440-343-1404.
Regards,
Dan Byers


Brian G. Redmond, Ph.D. Phone:
Curator of Archaeology FAX:
John Otis Hower Chair
of Archaeology
The Cleveland Museum of Natural History
1 Wade Oval Drive, University Circle
Cleveland, OH 44106-1767



The second was from Dr. Cline, a specialist in Cretan Archeology, who has authored books on the subject:



Dan --

Got the pictures. Hard to tell, but I sincerely doubt that it's ancient. If I had to guess, I would tentatively suggest that it looks more like a medallion sold to tourists who visited Knossos on Crete sometime during the past century. I imagine that someone brought it back as a souvenir and it wound up where you found it.

You might want to email John Younger at University of Kansas and ask him if he is willing to ask the online members of Aegeanet for their opinions -- his email is [email protected].

Cheers and good luck,

EHC



At 02:35 PM 9/28/2006, you wrote:

Dr. Cline,

Did you receive the picture files intact?

Do you need more pictures or any other data?

A few people are saying that even if this item is indeed ancient, that I have destoyed any potential value by digging it up in the first place and removing it from the soil matrix where it was held!

How would I know that when I was just recovering a metal object my machine said was there?

If it is very old, or very uniques (or both) it certainly didn't come from NE Ohio, so aren't I correct by saying the soil it came from wouldn't help you or someone else understand the item's origins?

Thank you for you time, and please send any repies or continued emails to my home address as well as this one



Dan Byers

-----Original Message-----

From: Eric H. Cline

Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 4:36 PM

To: Byers, Dan

Subject: Re: help identifying item dug


Can you email me jpg's of both obverse and reverse? Your forum won't let me look at the pics you've uploaded without actually joining the forum.


Cheers,


EHC



At 02:08 PM 9/26/2006, you wrote:


Dr. Cline,

It was suggested I contact you concerning an item I unearthed while metal detecting in NE Ohio. The item is certainly strange for a find in this area, and seems to depict the Crete/Mnioan Knossos Prince of the Lilies on one side and a labrys on the other. It appears to be bronze, is quite heavy, and was dug from soil that may not be native to the area it was found (fill dirt).


Here is a link to a metal-detecting website where i posted the find hoping for help identifying the pendant.


http://metaldetectingforum.com/index.php/topic,5005.0.html


Have you ever seen anything like this? The condition of the clump of dirt it was encased in suggests to me it had been in the ground quite a long time.


If you have any questions, feel free to email or call me at 440-343-1404.


Any help would be appreciated.


Regards,

Dan Byers

So, to those still interested in this amulet, understand that I have already written to the person Dr. Cline suggested, with no response. It seems that the wonderful folks who post here at TN are more enthusiastic about old items unearthed that the experts.

HH all!

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

Hello Danimal,

I am not surprised at the responses you got, there is a bias among our scholarly community that refuses to admit even the possibility of any kind of contact between Old world and New in ancient times; so in their view, in order to fit with the "Isolation" theory (that there was NO contact at all from the crossing of the first Amerindians in the Ice Age until Columbus or Erikson) then by definition every artifact which turns up that does not "fit" with that theory, (like your find) MUST therefor be NOT ancient.

I would like to suggest that you contact Dr Norman Totten at Bently college (not even sure if he is still alive) however he has expressed support for the alternate theory (Diffusionist) so his opinion might be "colored" the other way! I think the best bet would be to contact an expert without telling him/her where you found it, for as you have already seen with those who hold to the Isolation theory, they automatically dismiss it as "modern" or at least deposited in modern times BECAUSE of where you found it, no other factor is needed for them.

Good luck and I hope you will find the truth on this most interesting find! Thank you for keeping us posted here too!

your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[EDDE]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

"So, to those still interested in this amulet, understand that I have already written to the person Dr. Cline suggested, with no response. It seems that the wonderful folks who post here at TN are more enthusiastic about old items unearthed that the experts."

yup no money or glory in it, because you prolly already stole there thunder

 

[Danimal]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

Anyone have any names or contact in other related fields that may be interested in looking at this?
To date, the "official" responses are just as I expected. They completely dismiss any chance of it being of ancient origin because of where it was found. I don't get it. If it IS ancient, it DOESN'T belong where it was, so it's location found is irrelevant.
No one even expresses interest in examining it! No one wishes to look at the metalurgy, etc.
Almost as if it was never found.
I would have been better off NOT saying where it was dug!

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

Hello Danimal,
I tried to warn you about that - scholars do NOT want to risk their reputations and careers by even LOOKING at something that might not FIT with the accepted "Isolationist" theory. You might try contacting European experts on the Minoans, and NOT tell them where you found this, or if you must say then say you found it with a metal detector, in such-and-such a field by a playground etc but refrain from mentioning that it was in North America. Europeans are not so locked in to the idea of Isolation, I have found, and are more willing to examine artifacts that might be too controversial for American experts to risk their professional necks on.

Good luck and thank you for keeping us posted here.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Danimal]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

Hello Danimal,
I tried to warn you about that - scholars do NOT want to risk their reputations and careers by even LOOKING at something that might not FIT with the accepted "Isolationist" theory. You might try contacting European experts on the Minoans, and NOT tell them where you found this, or if you must say then say you found it with a metal detector, in such-and-such a field by a playground etc but refrain from mentioning that it was in North America. Europeans are not so locked in to the idea of Isolation, I have found, and are more willing to examine artifacts that might be too controversial for American experts to risk their professional necks on.

Good luck and thank you for keeping us posted here.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

Ay oter contact ideas Oro?...I have received several weird emails from folks claiming to NOT be asscoiated with certain universities or professors, but who want to either borrow the pendant for study or get samples of it for testing, etc. I have also received a couple nice offers for it, money-wise...but am really torn and unsure of what to do. So far I have responded by doing nothing, but this sucker won't go away.
I have replid to all that the item will not be loaned out and the only people allowed to take metalurgical samples will have to be someone who can have their credential confirmed.
I am w/out any further ideas researc-wise.

BTW, four sep. emails to people that deal in antiques, reproductions, etc, and not one reply. And to date, I have NOT found a picture of a representative example showing this is a 1900's item.

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

Greetings,
I would suggest contacting the curator of the Heraklion museum in Crete, Greece. I don't know the name of the curator, but the email address is:
[email protected]
If they would be willing to give an expert opinion, they will probably want you to send good photos by snail mail, with a pre-paid self-addressed envelope for a reply. You could try phoning the museum, but no guarantee they will speak English (likely not) and you would have to probably fax some photos - here are the tel. numbers:
Tel.+30-2810-224630, 280370
Fax +30-2810-332610

The Heraklion (also spelled several different ways) is considered the worlds premier museum of Minoan civilization, their expertise in the field is unquestioned.

I have had better luck dealing with experts in Europe (UK especially but don't know any Minoan experts there) but you might also try the Royal Ontario Museum (Paul Denis is curator of Greek and Roman displays there so is the person to contact) in Toronto. The email address is:
[email protected]
they will not give you a financial appraisal of what it might be worth, but could tell you if it is Minoan or modern.
Here is their telephone: 416-586-8000

here is the snail mail address:

Visitor Services Department
Royal Ontario Museum
100 Queen's Park
Toronto, Ontario
M5S 2C6
Canada

(I would add "Attention Paul Denis" to the first line)

That is a couple of ideas I would try if it were mine, there are some others if these will not help just let me know.

If you are considering selling it, I would sure hold off until you have obtained an expert opinion as to whether it is ancient or not which would affect the value tremendously. I would also hesitate before lending it out to be tested, be sure the people you are lending it to are beyond reproach. (My wife's uncle had some items disappear when lent to a major institution - the Smithsonian no less.)

I hope this is of some help.
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[jay d]

Re: Bronze pendant, found at 18" Help IDing

hello
try sending photes the www.smithsonian.com the have some great stories in thier mag you could also try cristyies auction house or even southerbies the people thier are experts in alot of diffrent fields and they know alot of diffrent archies tha they do bussness with the money diffrent people ar offering id hold on to it for awhile sombody out thier will know eventially.
good luck jay d

 

[LilyPrincess]

Hello, I am in SE Ohio, and I recently found a pendant that is similar to yours but mine looks new. It was among vintage costume jewelry. I did a lot of research as it piqued my interest in the Minoan Ancient Cult of Crete. I found your pendant on Google and thought I might share this info with you since we are both in Ohio. My pendant has the Lily Prince (Priest King) on one side and on the reverse is a twin-bladed axe that is related to the sign tau or Minoan symbol of fertility and life resurrection (priestesses), with the axe being above the head of an ox. The head of the ox being the Minoan symbol of cosmic forces and sacrifice. Also, known as the Horns of Consecration.